Why the Double Standard?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by rpeugh, Dec 17, 2003.

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  1. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Adam that was funny [face_laugh]

    Edit: And you know what? I LIKED the prequels, gosh darnit, and I don't care WHO knows it!

    Guinastasia I feel the same way. :)
  2. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Now don't get me wrong. I liked the LOTR movies.

    But, y'know, I also like Woody Allen's movies, but I don't go around saying Woody Allen should have directed the PT.

    It really is quite a ridiculous comparison if you ask me.



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  3. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Adam, you've missed the part where they flashback to Obi Wan telling Luke "Vader, betrayed and murdered your father", just as soon as Vader says "I am your father". 8-} or maybe when Obi Wan says "cunning warrior and a good friend".
  4. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Gollum looks half as realistic as Jar Jar and is twice as annoying.
  5. JediStarMoonstruck Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 5
    Why the Double Standard?

    My view on the human race comes to mind. Humans are hypocritical by nature. They will always see something in one thing and be blind to something in another thing (and I'm including myself in this so no flaming!).

    I keep wondering how I got this cynical! :p
  6. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Gollum looks half as realistic as Jar Jar and is twice as annoying.

    Well, Jar Jar is supposed to be a good guy and he was still annoying. Gollum was a little deceitful sneak and a villain in a way, so some of what he does should annoy us and the heroes. But it does not matter, Gollum is still more liked in general than Jar Jar. :p

    And as for Peter Jackson, he does have his particular style. But I think, if he were hired to do a Star Wars film, the first thing he would do is go back and really study the style of the SW films. And then, he would do his best to keep it in that style. No director is idiotic enough (except for Joel Schumacher) to radically depart from a popular and established film franchise's style and indulge in their own ways. Directors do think about the millions of fans out there. I'm sure Spielberg or any other director would also try their hardest to keep it in the same vein. (I actually think George Lucas has departed from the true Star Wars-style, if you ask me! Talk about ironic. Flame me! :p)
  7. TheEliteFetus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 1
    "The first Matrix had very few CGI shots."

    You call 400 some-odd FX shots 'very few'.

    "I'm afraid Jar Jar (and a whole host of characters in the PT) beat him to it"

    No no no. Some of you seem to forget characters like Casper or Dragonheart came first. And maybe others. Please imply what exactly did JJB beat Gollum at?
  8. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Well, Jar Jar is supposed to be a good guy and he was still annoying. Gollum was a little deceitful sneak and a villain in a way, so some of what he does should annoy us and the heroes. But it does not matter, Gollum is still more liked in general than Jar Jar. :p

    Well that's partly why I find Gollum so annoying. He's presented as this serious, fabulous character, yet he's got this annoying voice and acts incredibly stupid. Jar Jar on the other hand acts just the way he is presented. He is a bumbling idiot who's trying to do what's right...and he acts just like it. And just because the general public feels a certain way doesn't mean it's right or just.
  9. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    Yes, but if one person says you smell, they might just being spiteful. If hundreds of people say you smell, it's time to take a shower. That's my own way of seeing it. Of course, the whole argument is pretty pointless, as neither side will ever agree, so I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree. But I will say that I do agree that Peter Jackson's directorial style wouldn't sit well with Star Wars, but I will also say that the whole 'documentary' style of the Star Wars trilogy sometimes works quite badly against it, especially in the way The Phantom Menace was shot. Mind you, it was that documentary style that made American Graffiti such a good film, in that you feel as if you're experience the events in the film, rather than just watching them, but I don't think that comes across all the time in the Saga, really.
  10. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Smell is the incorrect analogy. If you are going to use a sense, it should be taste. I know many people who like sushi. In fact more people like sushi that I know that don't like it. However, I hate sushi, it tastes disgusting to me. Snobs would tell me I don't have a sophisticated palate (sp?). I just believe it doesn't taste good. In conclusion, the vast majority of people used to believe the earth was flat. Thank you.
  11. Formerly_Tukafo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2003
    star 1
    Taste is a term used too often when it comes to art and its appreciation. It's simply wrong to put everything down to Taste.

    If somebody asked you whether Mozart or Beethoven was the greater composer then half the people would probably say "Mozart" and the other half "Beethoven". They're both exceptional so it comes down to a question of taste. But if I asked you whether Britney Spears' music was better than Beethoven's then you enter a territory where it's no longer a question of taste. Nobody in their right mind could possibly claim that Spears' music was better no matter how often they claim that "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it". Yes, you're entitled to it, but the rest of humanity is also entitled to laugh at you for it.
    Sushi is by any definition great food. It's not a matter of opinion. Sushi is among the healthiest things you can eat and that's a fact. It's been proven to improve brain power and is good for your blood pressure, reduces the likelyhood of heart diseases etc. On the other hand a McDonald's burger makes you fat, has too much salt, increases blood pressure, bad for cholesterol etc. So nobody in their right mind could say that "in my opinion" a Big Mac is better food than Sushi.
    And in a similar vein there are films that are valuable, make you think and stretch your mind. Then there are other films that just feature lots of explosions
  12. Oakessteve Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    star 6
    Smell is a perfectly good way of describing it, foxbatkllr. Something might smell good to one person, but smell awful to someone else, the same way someone might like sushi and someone else doesn't. It still comes down to personal preference. But, as I said before, the argument is getting nowhere, as neither side will ever agree. One should hopes they'll eventually agree to disagree.

    One interesting observation I've made over the years since I've been posting here is that it seems Star Wars fans are almost completely intolerant of other people's opinions (something which I have been guilty of in the past), where as the other fandoms I am familiar with, while there are plenty of arguments, seem far more accepting of those with different taste to everybody else. I wonder if it's just a coincidence. Anyway, that's a completely different topic.

    So, just to repeat myself, yes, Jar Jar was a huge leap forward in terms of CGI, but Gollum was taking that leap forward and developing it, and I must admit I have a far greater feeling of emotional attachment to Gollum than I do to Jar Jar, but that's partly as Gollum's character has got far more going in there than Jar Jar has, who is, when you get down to it, pretty two dimensional. But then, you could argue that nearly all the characters in Star Wars, with the exception of Anakin, Dooku, Luke, Palpatine and possibly Han and Obi-Wan, are all pretty much two dimensional.
  13. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    But if I asked you whether Britney Spears' music was better than Beethoven's then you enter a territory where it's no longer a question of taste. Nobody in their right mind could possibly claim that Spears' music was better no matter how often they claim that "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it". Yes, you're entitled to it, but the rest of humanity is also entitled to laugh at you for it.

    I would be shocked as to how many people would say Britney Spears is better/ We live in a day and age where MTV rules. Make it so that much of the younger people will like what is on MTV or in there mags be it go or not.

    You see thing such as the PT, and LOTR's don't a come a long very often. Because in this MTV area it's sex, drugs, and other things that sell. Young people like Brtiney Spears far more then they would ever like Beethoven. This is do in part because she is a sex symble. Same with 50 Cent, Justein Timberlk(sp) and so on.

    Beethoven is not something the young people would like.
  14. Galak-Khan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2003
    star 1
    3NS? Sorry what is that an acronym for? With all these TLAs I get so confused sometimes...

    I think Gollum managed to avoid a lot of the anti cgi flak because of the immense performance that drives the character. Though you can tell its CGI and not a real creature, its easier to suspend your disbelief because the acting is so strong. I found those scenes to be some of the most disturbing and excellently acted schizorphenia sequences of any movie I have seen. Serkis did a fantastic job of showing a split personality.

    I must admit to being a bit of a CGI naysayer, and I think the reason the Star Wars prequels get such a lot of the flak on this topic is because they have an original trilogy of films with spectacular model based effects to compare with.

    Because there is no reference point, with the Matrix and LOTR, it is easier to say, there was no other way to do these things apart from CG, which in LOTR is thankfully sparce in its use. With Star Wars, the originals showed that impressive visuals could be achieved using models, and so its easier to cast judgement against CG.

    My personal gripe is that I can tell. With the original trilogy, the Star Destroyers do look HUGE, but not just that, they also look real, I can believe in them. The amount of CG used in the prequels, I find distracts from my enjoyment of the film, because it is easy to spot. At the moment the technology is not at a level where it can be used to create characters that look REAL. Its getting there, but at the moment it just looks too smooth too perfect to be believed. When they work out how to make CG created objects have all the imperfections that make real life objects so tangible, they will have cracked it, and the criticism will die. Until then, the debate rages.
  15. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    I think the discussion on this thread is proving that the double standard goes both ways.

    When it comes right down to it, most people will agree (if they make any effort to be objective) that BOTH the PT and LotR feature outstanding visual effects. However, the criticism becomes subjective when personal bias enters the equation. The people who prefer the PT to LotR will tend to praise the PT's effects while criticizing those in LotR. Conversely, people who prefer LotR to the PT will do the same in reverse. It is happening right in this thread, starting with the opening post. So to claim that the PT is the only victim of a double standard is ridiculous.



  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It makes it hard for me to choose which effects I think are better because I love both SW and LOTR.
  17. Galak-Khan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2003
    star 1
    acts incredibly stupid

    Please could you qualify this statement? Exactly what is it that Gollum does that you refer to as acting incredibly stupidly?

    Jar Jar Binks is annoying in TPM, because he serves little purpose apart from as 'comic relief' which is something I am deeply opposed to in film. If you're film is going to be dark and moody, there should be no need to lighten the mood with an annoying little gungan...and for the most part, TPM IS a DARK film, not as much so as AOTC but its still dark. JJB totally ruins it for me, so much so that I fast forward any time he appears on screen when I watch it now. As a result it has become emminently more watchable.
  18. foxbatkllr Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 6
    Please could you qualify this statement? Exactly what is it that Gollum does that you refer to as acting incredibly stupidly?

    Having multiple personalities is stupid.

    Jar Jar Binks is annoying in TPM, because he serves little purpose apart from as 'comic relief' which is something I am deeply opposed to in film. If you're film is going to be dark and moody, there should be no need to lighten the mood with an annoying little gungan...and for the most part, TPM IS a DARK film, not as much so as AOTC but its still dark. JJB totally ruins it for me, so much so that I fast forward any time he appears on screen when I watch it now. As a result it has become emminently more watchable.

    TPM is not a dark film and what purpose does C-3P0 serve in ANH other than comic relief? R2-D2 has the important death star plans. 3P0 doesn't have much use to the plot. Comparatively, Jar Jar's role is HUGELY IMPORTANT to the TPM plot. Without Jar Jar, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon would not have been able to get the gungans to help them so they could capture the viceroy and kill Darth Maul. Furthermore, without Jar Jar, Qui-Gon and Padme would not have been invited into Anakin's home, which means Anakin wouldn't be in the podrace.
  19. Dan_Corleone Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    "Please could you qualify this statement? Exactly what is it that Gollum does that you refer to as acting incredibly stupidly?

    Having multiple personalities is stupid."



    Gollum is SUPPOSE to have multiple personalities.

    On the other hand Jar Jar Binks was just annoyingly bad and unfunny (unless you have the IQ of a 3 year old)
  20. AdamBertocci Manager

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    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Gollum is SUPPOSE to have multiple personalities.

    On the other hand Jar Jar Binks was just annoyingly bad and unfunny (unless you have the IQ of a 3 year old)


    (1) Don't you mean SUPPOSED?

    (2) I found Jar Jar funny, and y'know what, I don't think I like your insinuation about my intelligence.

    (3) Now, I'm not 100% positive on this, but I believe a IQ is a measure of intelligence, not education. One's intelligence does not change as one gets older (unless you lose part of your brain's functionality in a car accident, or something). Three-year-olds can still be intelligent, have the potential for intelligent thought, etc. -- so I'm not sure what you were getting at with your comment. Unless you just plain don't understand how things work.



    Wouldn't that be interesting... the guy who comes in trying to insult other people's intelligence writes one of the less intelligent posts in the thread.




    Rick McCallum loves you!
  21. Formerly_Tukafo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2003
    star 1
    you're correct in your defintion of "intelligence". Indeed it cannot ever change throughout your life (unless something like an accident happens). That's why so many people argue that intelligence tests are wrong since you can actually improve your IQ by practicing a lot of logic puzzles. What changes throughout your life is your knowledge, your sophistication, your wisdom, but not your intelligence.
  22. Darth_Sillyname Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2000
    star 4
    Jar Jar's role is HUGELY IMPORTANT to the TPM plot.
    - Lucas could have easily written those things differently, so that Jar Jar wouldn't be needed.

    what purpose does C-3P0 serve in ANH other than comic relief? R2-D2 has the important death star plans. 3P0 doesn't have much use to the plot.
    - It wouldn't have been very interesting and informative if R2 had been the only droid.
    R2 rolls through the desert: "bleep, bleep, bleep"
    R2 meets Luke Skywalker: Hi, I'm Luke Skywalker. Where are you from? "Bleep, bleep, bleep"
    the heroes are in the trash-compactor: R2, Help! "Bleep, bleep, bleep".

    Sure, you could have had one droid, who could talk, but 3PO and R2 work as a team. They're more like one (archetype) character than two. You learn stuff, you get to know characters, you get some interaction, you get some comic relief.

    Jar Jar wasn't really needed in TPM. There were enough other characters around all the time through which we learned things, who could have moved the plot forward, and who could have done some funny stuff. It worked in AOTC.

    Back to the topic.
    I don't think other franchises are bashed any less for the effects.
    I certainly don't get that impression reading several sites and boards.
    People complain about the effects in Matrix and LOTR all the time.
  23. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Gollum is a complex and much more important character than Jar Jar. JJB is actually pretty one-note and two-dimensional in comparison. The whole point of Gollum, as even Tolkien portrayed him, is a creature wrestling with his two identities all because of the corruption of the Ring. His split personalities wasn't done as a cheap gimmick to please the audiences -- that is his character, and it becomes apparent that Gollum is a symbol of what Frodo is in danger of becoming. Take Gollum out, and you have no real idea how dangerous the Ring really is, and Frodo's journey would've lost its urgency or importance.

    You can still think Gollum is annoying, but he is definitely not useless and the way he was written is intentional.
  24. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    I don't know when the last time some of you watched ANH but C3PO has a much better role in that movie than in AOTC. Go back and literally make a mental note of the VITAL information C3PO relays to Luke. I think he has even more dialogue than Han. But the point is, he is not there just saying one-liners. His dialogue relates to the plot, to the surrounding characters, and reveals more of his personality. You never got any of that in AOTC, which should've properly introduced him.
  25. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Jar Jar wasn't really needed in TPM. There were enough other characters around all the time through which we learned things, who could have moved the plot forward, and who could have done some funny stuff. It worked in AOTC.[/i]

    Really in TPM he was needed he with out really knowing it united both the people of Naboo and the Gunguns. With out him that would not have happened.
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