PT Why the Jedi Council failed.

The failure of the Jedi Council to recognize Palpatine's threat, or make better decisions has always bothered me. Recently, I've realized the failings of the Jedi Council were firmly established in the Phantom Menace, before we’d even seen them screw anything up.


In TPM we are introduced to the Jedi Council, a group of masters that function as the governing body of the Jedi. Throughout the PT it is Council's decisions and actions that ultimately lead to the demise of the Jedi order (i.e., ignoring Dooku’s claim about the Sith controlling the senate, allowing Palpatine to erode the senate’s power, putting Anakin next to Palpatine, etc.). All of this happens because of how the council selects its members.


We don't know much about how one becomes a member of the council, but we do know that sitting members hold a vote of some sort. Because there is no external input (except Anakin's appointment), it is the decision of a majority of the members that determines any new member. This is a pretty straight-forward concept and doesn’t seem all that bad, except this is the reason the council does its job so poorly. Every time a seat opens up, the council takes a vote on a replacement. Every time they vote, they elect someone who thinks the same way they do, and the council becomes a little bit worse.


We actually have evidence of this happening from TPM. In TPM we learn that Qui-Gon would be on the council if he went along with them more, but he has a tendency of defying them. The Jedi council has decided not to place a qualified individual on the council, simply because he disagrees with them too much. The council is less interested in being a diverse group that comes up with good ideas, than it is in being a homogenous group that makes decisions quickly.


The Jedi Council falls victim to groupthink. Groupthink leads to bad decision making because decisions are never debated or challenged, they are just made. Groupthink also leads to lazy ideas because they never have to be defended against opposing viewpoints. It’s pretty easy to see how a lack of diverse thinking leads to some terrible decisions. The council ignored Dooku’s claim about the senate because once they decide he’s lying, nobody challenges that decision. The senate’s power is eroded because nobody on the council disagrees with the belief that the republic’s only real threat is external. Anakin is placed next to Sidious, despite many expressing misgivings, because nobody on the council can offer a better idea.


It isn’t just that the Jedi have unintentionally fallen victim to groupthink, they’ve also become ideologically opposed to the living force. Going back to Qui-Gon, we know that he is a proponent of the living force, and believes the focus should be on the here and now. We also know that Obi-Wan has been specifically instructed by Yoda to be aware of the future. Only one of these two is on the council, and the other one is known to defy the council frequently. Unless Qui-Gon is just a contrarian who goes against the council for the lulz, the reason he defies them is that the living force guides him to do so.


The failure of the Jedi Council, the one that ultimately leads to the end of the Jedi, is really the failure of the Jedi to recognize the fatal flaw in the council’s membership process. They select members that view the council’s decision-making as infallible, leading to a council full of members that view their own decisions as infallible, leading to terrible decisions.

Thoughts?

 

Yes I think this is a legit theory. The Jedi school is similar to a hardcore military school that often starts at a very young age. All of the jedi´s are trained the same way during the time in the order and are trained with strict view on for some trivial things such as relationships. Maybe it worked at first in the beginning but as the enemy adapted and the conservative Jedi Order remained the same they eventually lost to a smarter opponent.

 

I think that the reason that they failed is because they allowed the sith to make them morally compromise themselves, which allowed the sith to use that against them.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

Palpatine forced them into a position with only bad choices, and without them realizing it to boot. As the book says (rots), they lost before it began. they did have a chance if anakin had died on the TF ship, but it would have still been very slim. Palpatine is amazing. Basically, the Jedi Order is almost perfect, but they don't have enough knowledge of politics, and they are to easily drawn to war (if you make them think it is for the common good). The funny think is, believing Dooku was the best opportunity they got, sometimes, the best lie is the truth.

 

Interesting points in the OP.
The loss of Qui-Gon in TPM is definitely an ominous indicator of things to come. He's my favourite PT Jedi, and there is definitely a schism in AOTC/ROTS amongst the main characters with him gone.

I agree about the Council's decisions as well. They became a little shortsighted tbh.

Self-promoting, but I think this thread I made describes a lot of how the Council was outplayed by Sidious...

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/an-essay-on-palpatine-sidious-in-rots.50032812/

 

The Jedi Council didn't fail. One could make that claim if there was a chance for them to do something with the knowledge they had. And there wasn't. Sidious schemed against the Jedi from the very start.

 

I love Yoda, but he doesn't really understand people. In the scene where Anakin goes to Yoda for advice it is so obvious to anyone how emotionally destroyed he is, how he worries about someone he loves. Yodas answer to cut all attachments is just... just the worst. It's a Jedi thing to say for sure, but maybe that's the problem the Jedi are probably the least flexible people in the entire galaxy, especially when it comes to their doctrine. "Only siths deal in absolutes", come on Obi-Wan... come on.

 

Part of the reason Dooku's warning is ignored is because the council has bought into the belief that the council couldn't be duped that badly. They get drawn into the war because they all believe the republic is the greater good, not the people that live in it. The council has intentionally avoided adding any voices that would stand up and say "We can't risk ignoring Dooku's claim, we need to take a close look at everyone in the senate," or "the separatists have some valid claims with the state of the senate, maybe the republic needs to evolve to survive."

I totally agree that Palpatine slowly worked them into a very bad corner, but the reason it got that far was a fundamental failure in the council's structure.

I'd argue that having Anakin spy on Palpatine was a failure, especially when they acknowledge the risk it posed. I'd also argue that not uncovering something about Palpatine after Dooku's warning was a failure.

 

I can agree with some things, including that asking anakin to spy on Palpy was a bad idea, but I do not think Anakin's turn is a fault of the jedi. I think it very specifically happened directly in spite of great advice from Yoda and Obi Wan, which was very specifically non confrontational when both seemed to know exactly what was going on (between him and padme, not palpy) imo.

 

Some stuff from my Palpatine thread
Script in red...



PALPATINE: (continuing) “Anakin . . . I'm appointing you to be my personal representative on the Jedi Council.”
ANAKIN: “Me? A Master? I am overwhelmed, sir, but the Council elects its own members. They will never accept this.”
PALPATINE: “I think they will . . . they need you more than you know.”

Very crucial moment, this is where Palpatine really takes it up a level.
- Firstly, as a direct representative of Palpatine, Anakin is his right-hand man, and one step closer to being Palpatine’s apprentice.
- Secondly, it drives a much intended wedge between Anakin/Palpatine and the Jedi, who are already rightfully suspicious. Psychologically, the Jedi are going to further see Anakin as not truly one of them, and Anakin will sense this, adding to his feeling of isolation.
- Thirdly, he is conveniently using Anakin to spy on his sworn enemy, and knows the Jedi will ask the same of Anakin in return – “I think they will (accept Anakin onto the Council)...”.
- And finally, even though he is asking Anakin to do exactly the same thing as the Jedi will from the other side, Palpatine’s actions comes across as generous and fatherly - seeming to grant Anakin Mastership - which he probably knew the Jedi wouldn’t give Anakin anyway. With the Jedi on the other hand, asking him to spy (through Obi-Wan) is seen as a betrayal and an insult. They appear colder than Palpatine, even though Palpatine is creating this situation on purpose, and the Jedi actually care about Anakin more than Palpatine does – OBI-WAN: “Anakin, I am on your side, I didn’t want to put you in this situation.”
Palpatine’s final line is quite ominous... “They need you... more than you know.” A hint at Palpatine’s true opinion... of course foreshadowing that the Jedi’s own chosen one will tragically become their greatest enemy.


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YODA: “Allow this appointment lightly, the Council does not. Disturbing is this move by Chancellor Palpatine.”
ANAKIN: “I understand.”
MACE: “You are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master.”
Anakin reacts with anger.
ANAKIN: “What? ! How can you do this?? This is outrageous, it's unfair . . . I'm more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?” (While not at all Jedi-like, Anakin’s anger here obviously partially stems from his past as a slave and a lack of recognition for his abilities, which Palpatine is capitalising on. Anakin never truly felt respected or fulfilled both as a slave and a Jedi, and his quest to liberate himself from the shackles of the Jedi ironically lead him to permanent enslavement to the Emperor.)
MACE: “Take a seat, young Skywalker.” (Tense.)
ANAKIN: “Forgive me, Master.”
ANAKIN goes and sits in one of the empty chairs. Everyone is embarrassed. KI-ADI-MUNDI WHO APPEARS AS A HOLOGRAM, speaks.
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: “We have surveyed all systems in the Republic, and have found no sign of General Grievous.”
YODA: “Hiding in the Outer Rim, Grievous is. The outlying systems, you must sweep.” (Perhaps this holds some relevance to the fact Dooku and Grievous were doing Palpatine’s dirty work in the Outer Rim, and the real internal threat – Sidious on Coruscant – has got the Jedi wasting their efforts looking outwards.)
OBI-WAN: “It may take some time . . . we do not have many ships to spare.”
MACE: “We cannot take ships from the front line.”
OBI-WAN: “And yet, it would be fatal for us to allow the droid armies to regroup.”
YODA: “Master Kenobi, our spies contact, you must, and then wait.”
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: “What about the droid attack on the Wookiees?”
MACE: “It is critical we send an attack group there, immediately!”
OBI-WAN: “He's right, that is a system we cannot afford to lose. It's the main navigation route for the southwestern quadrant.”
ANAKIN: “I know that system well. It would take us little time to drive the droids off that planet.”
MACE: “Skywalker, your assignment is here with the Chancellor, and Kenobi must find General Grievous.”(Bad move by the Council. Putting Anakin and Palpatine together, with Yoda and Obi-Wan on other planets.)
YODA: “Go, I will. Good relations with the Wookiees, I have.”
MACE: “It is settled then. Yoda will take a battalion of clones to reinforce the Wookiees on Kashyyyk. May the Force be with us all.”
ANAKIN is disappointed.
This scene has a very different context when viewed with the novelisation. Whether this meaning is still supposed to be there in the final film isn’t really clarified. Basically the Council has decided off-screen that they will send Yoda off-world to make the Jedi appear vulnerable, and tempt the Sith they believe is in Palpatine’s circle to make a move and come out of hiding. It technically works, but horribly backfires, as Anakin is turned to the dark side, Order 66 is executed, and Yoda isn’t there to help defend against the Jedi Temple raid led by Vader. The Council try to outplay Palpatine at his own game, but are outmatched. They just aren’t cut out for this type of thing like the Sith are.

 

Yup, people talk about a lot of different things that really come down to anakin misinterpretation of the situation and/or advice, but Sending Yoda to Kashyyyk as a way to draw out the sith (or not) was probably their biggest mistake outside of siding with the republic once they realized the war might be a farce from Dooku.

 

The risk was that Anakin was going to be discovered as a spy.

What exactly were they supposed to uncover?

 

Seriously? That's a pretty big oversimplification.
Sure it was one risk that they would be caught and branded traitors, but more importantly Palpatine's hold over Anakin could only grow stronger if the Council orders him to spend more time with the Chancellor. The Jedi treat Anakin like a messenger-boy (as does Palpatine, but he charms his way out of Anakin realising this). Some Council members seem to have a mentality of the Council as "us" and Anakin/Palpatine as "them". Notice Mace sends Anakin out of the room (back to Palpatine's office) before revealing his fears of "a plot to destroy the Jedi". They unknowingly push Anakin further towards the Sith.

That the entire war was a sham, that the shroud of the dark side hadn't "fallen" at all (they thought the Sith were only aligned with the Separatists), that they were blindly doing everything Palpatine hoped they would. The Clone Army's origins should have rung alarm bells, and the discovery of the army even coincided with the beginning of the war, which is suspicious as hell. They know Jango, hired by a "Tyrannus" is the template for the Clones, yet when they see Jango answering to Dooku on Geonosis they don't make the connection? Particularly when Dooku flat-out tells them about the Sith being in control of the Senate?

 

That's something only you, as the audience, are aware of. The Jedi have no reason to believe Palpatine had any hold over Anakin. They just know they are friends, if that.

And how should they discover that? What evidence do they have? What reason do they have to suspect of Palpatine? The Jedi are not omniscient. They aren't aware of everything the viewers see.

 

I do feel that the Jedi Order or at least the Council had grown very comfortable in their position in the galaxy. The Council was very confused when Qui-Gon declared that he sure that his attacker on Tatooine was a Sith. Master Mundi even declares that it's impossible because the SIth have been extinct for a thousand years. Mace was the only one that spoke that seemed open to the return of the Sith but he seemed to believe that if this new guy was a Sith then they had possibly returned via Fallen Jedi or perhaps a Force Sensitive Individual who had found Dark Holocrons and was self-trained. Yoda just said that the Dark Side was "hard to see".

Where Dooku was concerned they seemed to shrug off his warning about Sidious for two reasons: it didn't feel right and Dooku had joined the Dark Side so he was lying to them to plant seeds of mistrust.

I do agree that after a certain point the Council didn't like naysayers on the Council. If anyone counts the Lost Missions of TCW they said at one point Sifo-Dyas was on the Council but was dismissed for some of his ideas including preparing the Republic for a full scale war when the skies appeared to be clear and no one else was having premonitions of war.

I also agree that one of the reasons behind the downfall of the Jedi Order was that they had allowed the war to erode at their principles but I think that they had problems for awhile and the war made the problems even worse.

In RotS the Jedi Order was backed onto a cliff and the only escape was to take out the Sith. I believe that Sidious got the Jedi Council so desperate they would do anything to survive the Sith; including exactly what he wanted them to do and let them think that they were outmaneuvering him. And one thing Sidious was banking on was Anakin and his choices at the very end.

I think in some ways the Jedi Council only paid lip service to the Force. They weren't too different than some people who claim to be religious but only attend church on certain holidays, for Christians Christmas and Easter, and that's the only religious things they do every year. This is probably unfair to them since they were meditating and most likely honestly searching the Force for answers.

 

To me, the Jedi failed for 2 simple reasons:

1. Palpatine is very smart and devious and manipulated them (and basically everyone else).

2. The Jedi have become arrogant / overconfident.

Examples of their arrogance:

- Ki-Adi-Mundi says it's impossible that the Sith could return without them knowing

- Dooku tells them what's been happening, and they dismiss it

- Obi-Wan in TPM considers Jar Jar and Anakin "pathetic lifeforms" - Qui-Gon sees they have a role to play and his character is generally shown to be not on the same page as the Jedi Council, compared to Obi-Wan

- Dex tells Obi-Wan about Kamino in AOTC, and when he goes to the Jedi Archives, the librarian says if it's not there "it does not exist!" - in the book The Star Wars Heresies they mention that even Lucas points out in the commentaries that the Jedi think they know everything, but in this case even the cafe dude knows more than them

- The Jedi don't collaborate with Senators like Bail and Padme who could have helped them - they try to do it all on their own

- Mace tries to take Palps without Anakin or Yoda or Obi-Wan

- They assume they can ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine and it won't damage their relationship with him (as if he could never turn on them)

- When Obi-Wan calls Anakin arrogant, Yoda points out that a lot of the Jedi are becoming this way

There's probably a million more examples, but the idea is clear enough. I think the Jedi spend too much time looking at the big picture from their ivory tower and forget to live in the moment - the opening of TPM seems very foretelling of the whole story, where Qui-Gon talks about this. I also feel like that theory nicely explains the contrast with the OT Yoda and Obi-Wan pushing Luke to concentrate more on the moment rather than trying to predict or control the future.

Perhaps this is part of why some people have trouble finding enjoyment in the PT. They see the Jedi as the perfect heroes, but we already knew from the OT that they had a downfall. Good guys beat bad guys is a lot easier for the masses to digest, than good guys who make a series of mistakes and slowly lose to the bad guys. Like Yoda says about the dark side, the simple stories are "quicker and easier", but (imho) not more powerful than the more deeper and complex aspects of the stories.

 

I would agree they had no way of knowing the extent, but how does that absolve them of sharing some responsibility for what happens? It's not like people are arguing they did it on purpose.

Debatable, we aren't shown that much of their investigation in the PT onscreen. To expand on this consider these excerpts.


TPM

QUI-GON: My only conclusion can be is that it was a Sith Lord.
KI-ADI: Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.
MACE: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing.
YODA: Ah, hard to see the dark side is.
MACE WINDU: We will use all our resources here to unravel this mystery and discover the identity of your attacker... May the Force be with you.


MACE WINDU : Now is not the time for this...the Senate is voting for a new Supreme Chancellor. Queen Amidala is returning home, which will put pressure on the Federation, and could widen the confrontation.
KI-ADI : And draw out the Queen's attacker.
MACE WINDU : Go with the Queen to Naboo and discover the identity of this dark warrior. That is the clue we need to unravel this mystery of the Sith!


MACE: There can be no doubt that the mysterious warrior was a Sith.
YODA: Always two there are. No more, no less. A Master and an apprentice.
MACE: But which was destroyed... the Master or the apprentice?



AOTC

OBI-WAN: It's been my experience that Senators are only focused on pleasing those who fund their campaigns... and they are more than willing to forget the niceties of democracy to get those funds.
ANAKIN: Not another lecture, Master. Not on the economics of politics... and besides, you're generalising. The Chancellor doesn't appear to be corrupt.
OBI-WAN: Palpatine's a politician, I've observed that he is very clever at following the passions and prejudices of the Senators.


OBI-WAN: Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you!
DOOKU: Don't be so sure my young Jedi friend. He knew all about the corruption in the Senate, but he would never have gone along with it if he discovered the truth.
OBI-WAN: The truth?
DOOKU: What if I told you that the Senate was under control of a dark Lord of the Sith?
OBI-WAN: No, it's not possible, the Jedi would be aware of it.
DOOKU: The dark side of the force has clouded their vision my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord known as Darth Sidious. The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this dark Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago by the dark Lord. He came to me asking for help, told me everything.
OBI-WAN: I don't believe you.


As I mentioned above, the discovery of the Clone army should be very suspicious.

JAR-JAR: I propose we give immediately emergency powers to the Supreme Chancellor!
*Applause*
MACE: It is done, then. I will take what Jedi we have and go to Geonosis and help Obi-Wan.
YODA: Visit these cloners on Kamino I will. And see this army they have created for the Republic.


OBI-WAN: Master, what do you make of Dooku's claims about Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right.
YODA: Joined the dark side Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now.
MACE: Nevertheless, I think we should keep a closer eye on the Senate from now on.
YODA: I agree.


Going from these quotes, they knew more than they realised. They aren't open-minded to an alternate viewpoint though, like the OP said they just dismiss things when they have made their initial assessment.

Then we get to the next film...
(pasting and editing for relevance from my Palpatine thread)...


ROTS

MACE WlNDU: “Chancellor Palpatine, what a welcome sight! Are you all right?” (Interestingly the same thing Anakin asked Palpatine.)
PALPATINE: “Yes, thanks to your two Jedi Knights. They killed Count Dooku, but General Grievous has escaped once again.” (Again shifting the blame to the deceased Dooku, and now to Grievous. Also note that he is telling the truth if taken at face value.)
MACE WlNDU: “General Grievous will run and hide as he always does. He is a coward.”
PALPATINE: “But with Count Dooku dead, he is the leader of the Droid Army, and I assure you, the Senate will vote to continue the war as long as Grievous is alive.”
MACE WlNDU: Then the Jedi Council will make finding Grievous our highest priority.” (Do you think this is truly the best use of the Jedis' valuable time?)

Palpatine knows that when Grievous is dead, the Jedi will come ask Palpatine to return Emergency power to the Senate. He knows they don’t trust him. So he is fully aware that there will be a confrontation, likely involving Mace, later in the film, soon after Grievous dies. This dialogue sets up that it will happen. He is also keeping the Jedi busy, and unaware of the big picture, while he seduces Anakin. Palpatine tightly controls the beginning, length, and end of the war.
He will of course reveal Grievous's location to the Jedi when he is ready, gets Obi-Wan conveniently off-planet, and expects before Grievous is even dead that Mace and his posse will soon arrive at his office.



KI-ADI-MUNDI, ANAKIN, YODA, MACE, CLONE COMMANDER CODY, and AAYLA SECURA talk via holograms.
CLONE COMMANDER CODY: “Master Windu, may I interrupt? General Kenobi has made contact with General Grievous, and we have begun our attack.”
MACE WlNDU: “Thank you, Commander. Anakin, deliver this report to the Chancellor. His reaction will give us a clue to his intentions.” (This line can really be directed at the audience, as we know Grievous is integral to Palpatine’s plan, but the Jedi have no idea what Palpatine is really thinking.)
ANAKIN: “Yes, Master.”
ANAKIN leaves the room. COMMANDER CODY's hologram disappears.
MACE WINDU: “I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.” (Importantly, Mace waits for Anakin and the Clone commander to leave before revealing his concerns. It is no coincidence that Anakin and the Clones are the ones soon to turn on the Jedi. But more to the point, the Jedi are clearly leaving the chosen one out of the loop on crucial information, which Anakin senses, feeling detached and isolated from his Jedi brethren. Additionally, the quote references the fact that the Jedi have been suspecting the Sith Lord is in Palpatine’s circle, the idea it is actually Palpatine himself is something they are dreading in the back of their minds. A little later on discovering who he is... MACE: “Then our greatest fears have been realised.”)
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: “If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from office.” (As Palpatine anticipated the Jedi would do.)
MACE WiNDU: “That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .”
Kl-ADI-MUNDI: “. . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.” (Something that gives weight to Palpatine’s claims the Jedi want control, at least partially.)
YODA: “To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take.” (This is what Anakin really needed to hear. Demonstrates the obvious self-fulfilling prophecy that by keeping Anakin at a distance, they pushed him to the Sith.)


MACE WiNDU: “What is it, Skywalker? We are in a hurry. We have just received word that Obi-Wan has destroyed General Grievous. We are on our way to make sure the Chancellor returns emergency powers back to the Senate.”
ANAKIN: “He won't give up his power. I've just learned a terrible truth. I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.”
MACE WINDU: “A Sith Lord?”
ANAKIN: “Yes. The one we have been looking for.” (Exposition showing the Jedi have been actively searching, but to no avail. Palpatine had the perfect plan, and the dark side muddied their vision.)




Back-tracking a fair few scenes;

ANAKIN: “What's wrong then?”
OBI-WAN: “The Senate is expected to vote more executive powers to the Chancellor today.
ANAKIN: Well, that can only mean less deliberating and more action. Is that bad? It will make it easier for us to end this war.” (The Republic has indeed, for some time, been handing power over to Palpatine voluntarily.)
OBI-WAN: “Anakin, be careful of your friend Palpatine.”
ANAKIN: “Be careful of what?”
OBI-WAN: “He has requested your presence.”
ANAKIN: “What for?”
OBI-WAN: “He would not say.”
ANAKIN: “He didn't inform the Jedi Council? That's unusual, isn't it?”
OBI-WAN: “All of this is unusual, and it's making me feel uneasy. You're probably aware that relations between the Council and the Chancellor are stressed.”
ANAKIN: “I know the Council has grown wary of the Chancellor's power, mine also for that matter. Aren't we all working together to save the Republic? Why all this distrust?”
OBI-WAN: “The Force grows dark, Anakin, and we are all affected by it. Be wary of your feelings.” (The Jedi are clearly sensing something but they are shrouded by the dark side and can't pinpoint.)


PALPATINE: “Anakin, this afternoon the Senate is going to call on me to take direct control of the Jedi Council.”
ANAKIN: “The Jedi will no longer report to the Senate?”
PALPATINE: “They will report to me . . . personally. The Senate is too unfocused to conduct a war. This will bring a quick end to things.” (An early indicator that things are becoming more centralised under Palpatine’s rule. The Senate grows powerless relative to Palpatine himself. The Jedi Order is losing some of their rights, yet the majority of the Senate happily supports this transition. Palpatine is also imposing himself on the Jedi; interfering to try and spark tension, and keep them where he wants them.)
ANAKIN: “I agree, but the Jedi Council may not see it that way.” (Yet they naively have been going along with it, unaware of the nature of their predicament)
PALPATINE: “There are times when we must all endure adjustments to the constitution in the name of security.” (Phrased like everyone is on the same side. And security is a major rationalisation for the coming Empire, continuing into the OT.)
ANAKIN: “With all due respect, sir, the Council is in no mood for more constitutional amendments."
PALPATINE: “Thank you, my friend, but in this case I have no choice . . . this war must be won.” (A little like Vader's "Together we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.")
ANAKIN: “Everyone will agree on that.” (Something Anakin is technically on board with before he actually turns, and he eventually will not see much difference in the Jedi and Sith goal to end the war, as obvious as the contrast may be to the audience.)
PALPATINE: “Anakin, I've known you since you were a small boy. I have advised you over the years when I could ... I am very proud of your accomplishments. You have won many battles the Jedi Council thought were lost . . . and you saved my life.
I hope you trust me, Anakin.”
ANAKIN: “Of course.”
PALPATINE: “I need your help, son.”
ANAKIN: “What do you mean?”
PALPATINE: “I fear the Jedi. The Council keeps pushing for more control. They're shrouded in secrecy and obsessed with maintaining their autonomy . . . ideals. I find it simply incomprehensible in a democracy.” (Trying to paint the Jedi’s appropriately independent nature as anti-democratic.)
ANAKIN: “I can assure you that the Jedi are dedicated to the values of the Republic, sir.”
PALPATINE: “Nevertheless, their actions will speak more loudly than their words. (Anakin will eventually see the Jedi as fraudulent, and all talk, when Mace tries to kill Palpatine, as Palpatine predicted)
I'm depending on you.”
ANAKIN: “For what? I don't understand.”
PALPATINE: “To be the eyes, ears, and voice of the Republic . . .”


ANAKIN: Why didn't the Council give me this assignment when we were in session?
OBI-WAN: This assignment is not to be on record. The Council asked me to approach you on this personally.
ANAKIN: The Chancellor is not a bad man, Obi-Wan. He befriended me. He's watched out for me ever since I arrived here.
OBI-WAN: That is why you must help us, Anakin. Our allegiance is to the Senate, not to its leader who has managed to stay in office long after his term has expired.
ANAKIN: Master, the Senate demanded that he stay longer.
OBI-WAN: Yes, but use your feelings, Anakin. Something is out of place.
Again, the Jedi clearly feel something is wrong, yet they assign Anakin to the Chancellor anyway.



Finally, look at the Jedi's/Padme's reaction when they learn the truth.

OBI-WAN: It can't be. It can't be!


OBI-WAN: I have seen hologram footage of him killing younglings.
PADME: Not Anakin! He couldn't.
ANAKIN: He was deceived by a lie, we all were. It appears the Chancellor is behind everything, including the war. Palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for! After the death of Count Dooku, Anakin became his new apprentice.
PADME: I don't believe you. I can't! (Obi-Wan to Dooku in AOTC - "I don't believe you.")


This is clearly to show the Jedi were blinded to the dark side. They had enough evidence to work it out, but it is like they were under some kind of spell or something.

 

The jedi seem fairly aware that Palpatine and Anakin have a close relationship, maybe they think they're just friends, but Palpatine placing Anakin on the council should have worried them more than it did (about the relationship not about his exerting power).

You're right, they aren't aware of everything we see, but it does feel like a few of Palpatine's machinations would have failed had the council not been so swift to assume that they were infallible.

 

Because it's not on them. What responsibility did they have about that?

It is, and they know it. But so what? What exactly should they have done? How would that lead to Palpatine?

What do they know? How does that solve anything?

What evidence? The point I'm arguing is that they have none. You can't use the knowledge of the audience against them because they have no way of knowing certain things that happened.

 

They made it easier for Palpatine.
For example in AOTC Palpatine suggests Obi-Wan (and by extension Anakin) protect Padme, and they go along with it. Arguably Palpatine trying to tempt Anakin. Palpatine always does things for a reason.
The Jedi then ask Anakin to request Palpatine talks to Padme to convince her to go off-planet. Both Palpatine and the Jedi Council are therefore responsible for Padme (who opposes the army and war) being away for the vote.

In ROTS Mace states "Very dangerous putting the two of them together. I don't think the boy can handle it. I don't trust him." Yet he is one of the key people pressuring Anakin to help them against Palpatine, and helps drives a wedge between Anakin and his Jedi brethren.

Like I said, if you think about it they should know the Clone Army was associated with the Sith. There is only one Sith Master, and they would assume Dooku was trained by him. Jango is described as being hired as the Clone template by Tyrannus, whom they eventually realise is Dooku. Jango is even seen by Dooku's side on Geonosis.

They should put two and two together to know the army is dodgy by ROTS. They should know that despite being pressured into it, war is not the answer. The war "represents a failure to listen" as Padme says. What does either side really have to gain; it is all because of Palpatine's dark will, and the Jedi seem to resign to following the his lead blindly (or more to the point, a Palpatine controlled Republic's lead).
Think about how the war ends - under an Empire. Dooku is dead? Oh but we need to kill Grievous. Grievous gone? Well what about the Separatist leaders. And Anakin/Vader - what do we do about the prospect of civil war between the Empire and the Jedi?
I realise Palpatine is really the one being hypocritical here, but the Jedi achieved nothing by fighting. It's futile, and they are better than that.

They know the Sith were ultimately behind the Invasion of Naboo in TPM, and the Separatist war beginning in AOTC. But you seem to have no problem with the fact that Dooku flat out told Obi-Wan the TF was led by, and betrayed by, Sidious - which matches what they already suspect. He also says Sidious is controlling the Republic side, which for some unexplained reason (besides the dark side shroud), Obi-Wan dismisses entirely.
Then in ROTS they suspect a Sith in Palpatine's circle, but don't do things any differently to how they have been for the whole war. And when Sidious is finally revealed - when he wanted to be - they don't warn the galaxy spread Jedi of likely impending catastrophe. I don't see why you have so much problem accepting the PT Jedi were almost blind in terms of the big picture.

 

Alexrd
You don't want to take a stab at my last post?

 

Why wouldn't they go along with it?

And why should they know that or be suspicious of him?

No. They are responsible for her protection and the final choice was hers. Their actions have nothing to do with her vote or ideology.

Where did you got that from? It was a Council decision to ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine. You don't know who voted for or against that decision.

Why would they assume that? Based on what they know, why should they think the clones and Dooku are related? There's nothing to go by, and definitely no evidence.

They only make that discovery between AotC and RotS. In AotC, only the audience knows Dooku is Tyranus.

Jango is an hired gun.

Nobody said the army was not suspicious.

?! War was coming, wether there were clones or not. The Jedi know the Republic was about to be attacked by the Separatists. The clones are their only line of defense. Like Mace said, there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic.

Are you implying that the Jedi or the Republic are happy that there is a war?

The Jedi do what they can to protect the Republic. Since the Republic is under attack, their involvement is a necessity, not a choice.

Yes, I saw the movies too.

So, if someone attacked your home and you were unable to protect your family, would you say your efforts were futile and that you achieved nothing by fighting?

They only know that later.

Obi-Wan doesn't believe him, but he doesn't dismiss it since he reports to the Council and they decide to keep a close eye on the senate.

They use one of their own to spy on Palpatine in order to discover the Sith Lord.

The likely impending catastrophe is him escaping arrest or turn the tables against the Jedi. Or they should just guess out of nowhere that the clones could betray them in the battlefield? What exactly should the Jedi around the galaxy do? Cease fighting? Go back to the Temple?

I simply don't blame them for what happened (which seems to be in vogue nowadays) and accept that they did what they could with the situation they were trapped in.

 

And more when the real world political atmosphere coincide with the movie, the Original Star Wars fans want the naive and optimistic end of the OT; not the crude and brutal reality that is happening now, is more easy to ignore the treat when it arising that actually doing something, the Original Star Wars fans not want to think what is happening now, or do something about it, they want to believe that they are the good guys by definition and not matter what atrocities their government commit or how much they prolong the war, they are always right, they are always the good guys, they always are the rebels fighting against the evil empire, and they don't realize that now they have become the empire.

 

I think blame is maybe the wrong word to use here. Perhaps using "fail" in the title of the thread really implied they could have done more, which isn't entirely true. The council, as it existed, probably couldn't have done any more to prevent what happened. My initial post was more about how the council got to that point in the first place.

At some point in time the council was a diverse group with differing beliefs on the force, the role of the jedi, and the republic. Over time this was replaced by a council that followed a pretty strict dogma: the force was not about the here-and-now, the Jedi protectors of the republic, and the republic was perfect and could only be threatened from outside. Palpatine understood how these beliefs could be used to his advantage and did so.

A more diverse council would have had members arguing that the separatists were a non-factor compared to the senate slowly destroying the republic, or even members arguing that the senate was corrupt and the separatists had some very valid complaints, or that the galaxy had perhaps grown too large for one government. A more diverse council would have questioned why the sith would arm the republic with a clone army to defend itself , and maybe realize that the sith's end goal was a long war, and then they could have figured out who would benefit most from such an event.

 

Yoda doesn't say cut attachments. He says, "Train yourself to let go of all your fear to lose." Meaning train yourself to let go of your fear. Fear is the path to the dark side. Anakin won't do that because he wants power. He wants the power to control life and death and Yoda won't tell him what he wants to hear.