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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Why the Jedi Council failed.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by wolfwood89, Dec 29, 2015.

  1. Snacky

    Snacky Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 17, 2015
    Pretty sure he tells him to lose all attachments aswell.
     
  2. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    "Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is."

    So yeah.
     
  3. WookieeShampoo

    WookieeShampoo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 28, 2015
    I think cooperating with the clone army was a decision that backfired too, and rightfully so. Using such an army is very questionable morally.
     
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  4. greytstar

    greytstar Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 17, 2015
    If you see all epysodes from I to VI, it´s evident that the main cause of the council´s failure to recognize the threats was its tendency to underestimate the power of the dark side together with its arrogance, remember the dialoge previous to the fight between Yoda and Sidious: Yoda gets too self confident in defeating him, but Sidius says: "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda..." which later proved to be right. In a way, Sidius was using this arrogance weakness to cloud their view throughout the whole process of his rise to chancellery. In epysodes V VI, I remember the phrase "don´t underestimate the power of the dark side" several times.

    Another interesting point, is that the council never fully accepted Anakins virtues and need for recognition, and even knowing he was opposed to this treatment they never suspected he could flirt with the dark side, they mainly criticized his lack of experience.
     
  5. ladygrey45

    ladygrey45 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 30, 2015
    This is something I totally agree with, I don't agree with the Jedi in terms of you should let go of your'e attachments thats just unrealistic for a human. I think the Jedi Council not treating Anakin well is a BIG reason for why he turned to the dark side.
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Attachment is defined as possessive love. Jealousy. Fear. Obsessiveness. Unconditional love is love without thinking of yourself. Compassion. What Luke feels for his father is compassion. He is thinking of his father when tells Obi-wan that he cannot kill his own father, because he believes there is still good in him. His attachment to Leia is what almost damns him, because he is thinking of himself rather than what his sister wants.
     
  7. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

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    Oct 17, 2009
    I would add:

    3. Palpatine was stronger with the Force then they were. "The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is." "Blind we are, if creation of this clone army, we could not see." "I think it's time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has been diminished." "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness."

    For most of the last thousand years, their greatest asset has been their ability to perceive events unfolding all over the galaxy, often before they've even unfolded. With foreknowledge and insight from the Force, a single Jedi could often be sent to forestall a crisis well before it grew to pose a serious threat. The Sith, however, had grown strong enough to somehow shield their own activities from the perceptions of the Jedi. By the time Sidious launched the Clone Wars, his influence over galactic affairs had grown so extensive, he had his fingers in so many pies, that the Jedi could hardly see anything. It was as if, as Yoda put it, there was a shroud of the Dark Side covering the entire galaxy. The Jedi found themselves embroiled in a massive galactic conflict at the same time they had been effectively blinded ... their greatest strength neutralized. As a result, the Jedi were really just floundering ... for the first time in ages, they simply didn't know what they needed to do, and didn't really know how to cope with that. They simply hadn't imagined that something like this could happen to them ... which goes right back to your reason number 2.

    Perhaps if the Jedi had still been able to prophesy in the present, they wouldn't have felt the need to place so much trust in a prophecy from the past.

    In regards to Qui-Gon, the impression I get from TPM is that his exclusion from the Council was primarily due to Qui-Gon's casual disregard for the rules:

    "I will train him then."
    "An apprentice you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible to take on a second."
    "The Code forbids it."

    "If you would just follow the Code you would be on the Council."

    Of course, that doesn't refute the point that the Jedi Council didn't want members who would rock the boat.

    Still, not all Council decisions seem to be unanimous. The conversation that Obi-Wan and Yoda have at the end of TPM makes it sound like Yoda was against the idea of training Anakin, but was overruled by the Council. And here's Mace on the decision to use Anakin to spy on the Cancellor: "Very dangerous putting them together. I don't think the boy can handle it. I don't trust him." That sounds to me like a man still complaining about a vote that didn't go his way. (I'm still undecided about which way I think Obi-Wan voted on that issue.) But there we have two likely candidates for split decisions, and both of them appear to have gone against one of the Council's most influential voices. So maybe the group-think accusation is a bit unfair. After all, in theory, the Council should be sensing the will of the Force and then acting on that. The Council is meant to achieve consensus rather than engage in parliamentary hijinks.
     
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  8. BadCane

    BadCane Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 28, 2015

    I had many doubts about the clone army adoption but I started a thread once in the TOR forums that gave me new perspective about the matter.

    I always thought that the Jedi must have seen some kind of coincidence. How in the world a grand army just falls onto the Republic lap right at the start of a war and no one questions that? Well, someone must have questioned that a lot. But they had no choice! The Republic didn't have an army that could be put up against the CIS droids and the Jedi (peace keepers, not soldiers) could not be used as battlefront pushers. They had to accept that. It was either that or being swept away by the CIS. Again, a master stroke by Sidious.
     
  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Well, that's not exactly a new perspective. It's what's presented in the movie.
     
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  10. BadCane

    BadCane Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 28, 2015
    a new perspective to me, at least.
     
  11. greytstar

    greytstar Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 17, 2015
    What is more questionable to me, is that the jedi council never cared or took into consideration the possibility of solving the war peacefully with diplomacy, they knew the siths were behind the federation, but in a way, they never cared about the federation´s interests or needs, after all, the federation was seduced and led by the dark side and siths but they were not the dark side and trying to force them into the galactic republic was somehow authoritarian. In this regard, Palpatine was smarter, he separated, but gave both sides what they wanted, and he suceeded reuniting the whole galaxy, for his evil purposes though

    Regarding the clone Army, I don´t know how the council used an army created supposedly by a jedi ,Syfo Dias, they never even knew he existed.
     
  12. dsematsu

    dsematsu Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 6, 2013
    I think the Council's main flaw was that they were simply too good. The good side came naturally to their character and it was hard for them to empathize with the more emotional members. Obi-Wan's greatest failure was not realising the depth of Anakin's love for Padme. Obi-Wan could never dream of disobeying the Jedi code, and because of this sort of arrogance he couldn't imagine Anakin doing so either. This is why they are all together at the end of RotJ, Yoda and Obi-Wan know they failed Anakin by not seeing the emperor's manipulation of him using Padme.
     
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  13. The_God_Anubis

    The_God_Anubis Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 27, 2015

    That's an interesting thought! Never thought about it that way, although it's been out in the open ...
    A lot of interesting discussion, btw.

    I never got the 'dark shroud' thing.
    Is it like an ability Palpatine has? Is it a dark side power?
    Is it explained somewhere why Yoda for example doesn't feel Palpatine in the Force?
     
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  14. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Some dialogue references to it...


    MACE: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing.
    YODA: Ah, hard to see the dark side is.


    PALPATINE: Master Yoda, do you think it will really come to war?
    YODA: The dark side of the force clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is.


    YODA: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.
    MACE: I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.
    YODA: Only the dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.
    (The irony being that the Sith control the Senate)


    DOOKU: Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a dark Lord of the Sith known as Darth Sidious.
    OBI-WAN: I don't believe you.


    OBI-WAN: What do you make of Dooku's claim that a Sith controls the Senate. It doesn't feel right.
    YODA: Joined the dark side Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now.
    (Example of their blurred sight)
    ...
    YODA: Victory? Victory you say. Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. begun the Clone War has.
    (The shroud is actually stronger than ever; the Jedi have no idea that the Sith are leading their side)


    Plus, in ROTS Padme reacts to the truth with the same line as Obi-Wan in the previous film.
    OBI-WAN: It appears the Chancellor is behind everything, including the war. Chancellor Palpatine is the Sith Lord we have been looking for! After Count Dooku's death Anakin became his new apprentice.
    PADME: I don't believe you. I can't!
     
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  15. The_God_Anubis

    The_God_Anubis Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 27, 2015

    Yes, that's true.

    But is it something Palpatine does deliberately? Like a Force ability?

    Or is it just because of all the dark things happening? Like the general structure of the Force becoming darker?
     
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  16. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 5, 2015
    If you refuse to acknowledge a problem you cannot begin to tackle it appropriately. The Jedi were overconfident in their position of power. While they slept, the dark side was awake and plotting.

    Like in real life, destabilsation takes time. But it does work.

    "Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand."
     
  17. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 24, 2015

    I would say how great that was Anakin attachment with Padme, he believe that was love, but never the less, he was replacing his mother with Padme, because he had deeply mommy issues, and Padme wasn't safe either, because she only enter in a relationship with Anakin because she would be doing more that people expect from her, something more than fulfil a duty, never the less, you are right that Obi Wan should have pay more attention and try to give him a good advice instead of shush him with the Jedi Order rules.
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Jedi did try to solve the Federation's invasion with diplomacy. Palpatine ordered Nute to kill them and that forced the Jedi to fight. The use of Droidekas forced Obi-wan and Qui-gon to flee and in turn found out that simple diplomacy was out of the question because the Federation was about to invade. After meeting with the Council, the goal was to let Padme take the lead. The Jedi Order's mandate forbid them from doing anything else in this situation, other than protect Padme. Padme had decided that she was going to fight in order to get to Nute and force him to sign a new treaty, one that would formally end the invasion and occupation of the Federation.


    Uh, Sifo-Dyas did exist. The Council knew him quite well as he was a member until his consistent rantings about needing to take drastic action lead to his dismissal from the Council. Then Dooku, who had already turned to the dark side, told him that an army was needed. While on a mission around the time of the Naboo invasion, Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and used his name to finish the deal with the Kaminoans.

    The latter. The more Palpatine blurs the line between good and evil, the more the Force becomes out of balance. Thus the Jedi's powers begin to diminish. Add in arrogance on their part and there you go.
     
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  19. greytstar

    greytstar Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 17, 2015
    As far as I know, the federation was opposed to some trade taxation and that was the reason they wantent to be out of the GR, I think, at least from wht I remember, they didn´t pursue the total galaxy domination or the destruction of races or planets, therefore, if they fell into Sidius evil orders, it was because the senate, and the jedi didn´t do enough to negotiate, not only during, or before the Naboo invasion, but specially during the clone wars. The jedi only focused on the sith leaders but didn´t care for the civilizations that were providing them with ships and weapons and their demands
     
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  20. Sable de luz

    Sable de luz Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Its not fun, its not nice to see but the truth is out there. Jedi should had stick to their traditions. They were keepers of the peace, not soldiers. Like an NGO as red cross or whatever.

    And for me unlist is pretty clear than to be a calm monk, you cant have attachments. Lots of times has been said people should not be trainned if they are not young enough. if they have attachments.

    We have seen three fallen jedis in the movies and it is exactly because of this. Anakin, to old for trainning, afraid to lose the ones he loves. Dooku, aware of his noble procedence and the role he was supposed to play (more importan than a random jedi), and Rent, which is almost the same as Dooku: Knows his family, his blue blood and wants a higher power and position that what a jedi can give.

    Both of the three had a bag of stones in their back before going for trainnig.


    Perhaps thats why Luke cut the crap and lost bonds with everybody
     
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  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The Naboo invasion was about a dispute between two members of the Senate. According to the TPM novelization, the Jedi couldn't really get involved in the dispute which is why Valorum had to send in his request to the Council to send two Jedi to resolve the crisis, without informing the Senate first. Thus they had no authority once the negotiations were called off, via blaster cannons. As Qui-gon noted, they only acted because of someone else. The Jedi cannot just do what they want, which is how the Sith came into existence.

    When it came to the Clone Wars, the Jedi did as much as they could to prevent the war, but it fell to the Chancellor to resolve the issue. The Council had to abide by the rules of galactic politics. And when the war did begin, the Jedi did their best to defend the populace. The problem was that was precisely what Palpatine wanted them to do. And any attempt at negotiation was met with some form of sabotage by the Sith, thus forcing the war to continue. They should have done more, but the problem is that their own beliefs were used against them.
     
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  22. Shaak Ti

    Shaak Ti Jedi Master star 3

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    Dec 22, 2015
    I do wish we were privy to more than their final say and the musings of Mace, Ki-Adi, Obi-Wan and Yoda. I suspect the exact thoughts you outline were posited, but eventually dismissed (except for senate corruption which they suspect for awhile). MAce just happens to talk a lot a be vehemently behind the republic, Yoda and Mundi are somewhat more focused on the force and interested in more here and now stuff (teaching, anakin), and Obi Wan is focused on Anakin and doing his job (in the moment like Qui Gon taught).


    Putting Ki Adi with Padme would have been preferable, but they had no reason to suspect the chancellor yet, and I don't think Obi Wan mentioned his misgivings about anakin to the council.
     
  23. The_God_Anubis

    The_God_Anubis Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 27, 2015
    I agree.
    So, Lucas already saw the 'future'.
    This is the Brexit/Grexit all over and the EU trying to keep up, but sticking to much to their ivory towers. :p
     
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  24. Darth Formidious

    Darth Formidious Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2015
    I think they failed because:

    -Only a minority of council members (3) make nearly all the decisions.
    -Monoculture of narrow minded, dogmatic thinkers.
    -The fact someone like Obi Wan can sit on the council is worrying, he was young and not nearly as wise as other Jedi.
    -The Jedi were blinded by their arrogance.
    -Palpatine was a threat so powerful, no Jedi could prepare for it.
     
  25. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Umm.. as far as the movie shows, the BLOCKADE, which is what the Jedi were sent to negotiate over, was not a conflict between Naboo and the TF. The conflict was between the TF and the senate/republic. The latter had made some new tax that the former didn't like and they blockaded Naboo as a way to blackmail/strong arm the senate into removing this new tax.
    As far as the movie is concerned, Naboo has sod all to do with this, they are just a suitable target.

    How the invasion is tied with this isn't really explained. The TF would apparently get control over Naboo once Padme was forced to sign some treaty. How this would get rid of the new tax is not explained. And since the blockade was removed, the thing that the TF used to put pressure on the senate, the TF would have less hope of getting the new tax removed.

    As for acting, the TF try to kill them and they in turn try to get to Nute and only leave once the destroyers made any hope of getting to Nute impractical. The Jedi didn't give up as soon as the TF turned to violence. Assuming that the destroyers hadn't gotten there in time and Qui-Gon had forced his way through the door, what then? Given how much of pansy Nute and the others were, I think they would have given up. And why did Qui-Gon try and burn through the door if not to try and get at Nute? This suggest that he would have done something had he been successful.
    Once they failed at that, they tired to warn the Naboo and get in contact with Valorum and warn him. Which makes some sense, two Jedi can't fight a whole army.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well it seems that prior to AotC the Jedi didn't negotiate, Palpatine did that. Which again is smart as he is basically negotiating with himself and he can thus stall endlessly.
    Once the seps army threat was revealed and power given to Palpatine, it seems that the Jeid got orders to use the clone army and get Dooku and the other seps.

    Which is again pretty smart and had the Jedi used their heads they could have ended the war before it started. Had they been able to corner Dooku by more jedi than just Mace and say "Surrender or die." Had Dooku pulled something, he died. With him dead, Nute captured and the droid army destroyed. I think the other seps would have folded. Their main leader gone, much of their army destroyed and the republic they thought was weak was in fact quite strong.
    The war would have been over and the Jedi seen as heroes.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface