Speculation Why the NJO and Legacy Era are toast.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by stellarmagic01, Nov 5, 2012.

?

Do you think the NJO and Legacy are going to Survive Episode VII?

Yes 59 vote(s) 27.6%
No 154 vote(s) 72.0%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Okay, I know I’m going to be called out by hardcore fans of certain proprieties within the Star Wars Expanded Universe for this work. What I am about to say are my thoughts on the matter of the new Trilogy and its relationship to the Expanded Universe as well as why certain storylines are likely to be trashed by the emergence of Episode VII, VIII, and IX.

    First, to understand where I’m coming from you need to understand the history of the Expanded Universe, both as a body of works and separate series with different origins. For one thing, there are two separate ‘Eras’ of publishing in the series, as the Expanded Universe has been under two separate publishers over the years. Bantam and Del Rey are the two separate publishers that have had a turn with the Star Wars license.

    The reason I brought up the two separate publishing houses is that each represents a very different approach to the universe, canon, and continuity. In many ways much more control and freedom was given over to the Del Rey editorial staff in dictating the direction of the books under their control. When the New Jedi Order began it went so far as the book editors requested permission to kill off Luke Skywalker, a move that was only stopped by a refusal by George Lucas. Apparently Chewie was selected to die in Vector Prime for two reasons… for one he wasn’t listed on Lucas’s ‘do not kill’ list and he was as one of the editors put it, he was ‘the family dog.’

    Thanks for putting down another sapient like that, just great.

    Del Rey took an approach to the Star Wars universe that could be best described as ‘Darker and Grittier’ and while elements of the NJO are interesting the vast majority of the stories are an immense break from the previous tone, style, and basic feel to the universe.

    Batnam on the other hand had very little freedom, and as a result tended to feature a rather ready-made series of events in each book. Imperial or Dark Side bad guy rises up and gets taken down by the big trio. However, thanks in part to efforts by people like Michael Stackpole and Timothy Zahn a rather clear progression exists through the stories of the slow downfall of the empire and the subsequent rise of the New Republic.

    So what do we have in the post-RoTJ EU and what would be most likely to go, and why?

    Well first off, imagine approaching this from the perspective of a General Audience member who knows nothing of the EU. What would be acceptable to them?

    Luke Skywalker as a Jedi Master of a new Jedi Order? Sure, easy.
    Luke Skywalker married with a kid? Okay, we can do that.
    Luke Skywalker a widower and exile? WHAT? What the sith happened?

    Han and Leia married? Sure! Like what else would happen?
    Han and Leia with kids? Oh why not?
    Han and Leia with two dead kids and only one surviving? WHAT THE KRIFF HAPPENED?

    See the problem? It gets worse if you think about Galactic events.

    The Galactic Empire has fallen and replaced by a New Galactic Republic? Sure…
    An alien invasion has trashed the galaxy? Wha… Show us or ignore it!
    A new Galactic Federation of Free Alliances takes control? Okay… not so sure.
    A second Galactic Civil War? WHAT? WHY JUST TELL US THESE THINGS?

    So… if you want to use Luke, Han, and Leia there are some things in the EU that are certain to be ignored or swept aside in order to make it palatable to a General Audience. There are other things that can easily be accepted.

    Mara Jade Skywalker for one. The Thrawn Trilogy is probably the Star Wars books most likely to have been read by a member of the General Audience, and even if she’s not Luke having a wife isn’t a big jump for most members of the General Audience, her being a rather outspoken redheaded woman that seems like a female version of Han Solo with force powers would only make it more acceptable to the General Audience.

    Ben Skywalker, despite being a product of the NJO era is one that most members of the General Audience could accept as well.

    Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin Solo are also rather easy ones for the General Audience to swallow as well.

    So it’s obvious to me, even if they’re setting it post NJO in terms of time frame they can’t maintain the NJO as full canon without making the General Audience go: What the Kriff just happened?

    So sorry guys, the NJO and Legacy are likely toast, and good riddance I say.
    Sitara, KED12345, Jedi_Lover and 7 others like this.
  2. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I don't think its that easy to have Luke get married and have children

    We now know that Jedi didn't marry and didn't have children, and Anakin is the post boy for why Jedi having families is a bad idea. He has 3 Jedi who can give him advice and guidence and will probably tell him the samething. PLus it seemed like the Jedi not being able to marry was common knowledge (Padme knew), so why would Luke decide to ignore a rule that was clearly there for a reason when trying to reestablish the Jedi order?
    Alexrd likes this.
  3. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    I tend to be of the opinion that the rule was the problem that cause Anakin's fall, not his relationship with Padme by itself.

    Luke ignores the advice of previous masters in RoTJ when it comes to Vader... and he's proven right that not only can Dark Jedi be redeemed but that love for another can save you. If Leia trains could you see her ending the relationship with Han? I thought not so you can't really just say... no, that's not allowed and expect it to stick.
  4. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    That's the pre-ROTJ Order. The post-ROTJ Order is very different in that regard. By the time of the NJO, there are a number of Jedi in relationships, including Luke and Leia. Even during the PT era, Jedi with families are not unheard of.
    Last edited by Chancellor_Ewok, Nov 5, 2012
  5. kevmp Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2011
    star 2
    I would have no complaints if the NJO and beyond were ejected in favour of something new and exciting. I enjoyed reading those books, but in a lot of ways they were disappointing with a lot of rehashed ideas. It seems a lot of the authors could never quite get a good handle on writing the big three, not in the way Zahn can. I personally think the best post ROTJ novels, with the exclusion of Zahn's, are the ones that DON'T focus on the big three. X-Wing TV series based on those novels? Yes please!
    Last edited by kevmp, Nov 5, 2012
  6. Jobertus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    A measure of clarification will come once we know when the ST begins, if it's prior to 45 ABY then you are likely to be right, if it begins around 45 ABY you may not be. Since the ST is about the continuation of the Skywalker saga, with Luke, and Leia (and possibly Han), then you can have an original story without needing to explain anything about what happened to Mara, Jacen, Anakin Solo or the events of 4 ABY - 45 ABY. Ben and Jaina are perfect to be the new protagonists. As for any confusion on the part of the general audience, read a few books or go to wookieepedia if your curious as to what happened to them prior to Episode VII, an original story doesn't have to include any details of the past other than probably the first two trilogies and at the same time can still include characters who appeared in the EU from 4 - 45 ABY. The story of the ST is going to be original, so the only story that matters is this story, where the characters came from can be found in literature and elsewhere. This all becomes moot when Episode VII includes all new major protagonists who have never been seen anywhere other than Episode VII, VIII, and IX.
  7. Krueger Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    I've said it many times before, but I will say it again. I really do believe that (nearly) all post-ROTJ EU is toast.
    Blazer-Smith likes this.
  8. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    The rule itself did nothing to cause his fall, it was his attachment to Padme, which the rule was in place to prevent.

    I could Leia not becoming a Jedi.
    If she does become a Jedi, I could see her having to make that choice, and Han potentially not being in the movie for that reason.
  9. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Thats EU stuff, this movie won't go by that. THey could have Luke stick to the rule, they could have him change it.

    You don't make a successful movie by telling the majority of your audience to go read a few novels before they see it, espically when a big segment of your audience are kids. That won't be how they make or market Episode VII. I think it will be VERY unlikely to see Jacen, Jaina or any other EU character in Episode VII.
  10. Jobertus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3

    I never said go read a book before you see a movie. I said if watching Episode VII made you curious about these characters, there are avenues to go through to learn their back stories. Nothing is to say that TPTB will use these characters, I contend that it would be smart to use them as their back stories are already well established. I did not know a thing about any of the Star Wars characters as a kid until I saw the movies, and it was the movies which inspired me to read the books. I trust that other people who are similarly curious are not too lazy to pick up a book, maybe I have too much faith in people.
    LordDeschain likes this.
  11. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    Except that they've said that they are consulting the Expanded Universe for story ideas.
  12. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    The Star Wars franchise is unique in that it considers the majority of its licensed tie-in works to be canonical; however, nothing would be significantly altered should that policy change as a result of the sale of Lucasfilm to Disney and the decision to develop and release the Sequel Trilogy because, for many, the film canon is all that they know. Fans of the EU would have to re-evaluate things in terms of picking and choosing which pieces of the EU they wanted to still consider canon in relation to the Sequel Trilogy, but that's really neither here nor there.
  13. Spazmatron Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2012
    star 3
    Some of the people here have said, well just put the books into the opening crawl...

    Well that's kind of silly because the events in the books are too big for the opening crawl. The audience would be confused

    Trash the post ROTJ books and make something good.
    Blazer-Smith and TaradosGon like this.
  14. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    The collapse of the Empire and rise of the New Republic is pretty straightforward and understandable so the stuff pre-NJO is less likely to be tossed, and could be explained easily in the Opening Crawl just by saying: A New Galactic Republic has risen from the ashes of the Galactic Empire... and then a line about a 'next generation of Jedi Knights' could tell us to expect kids, then just seeing them would be enough. Really the Opening Crawl for each movie is short, something like 5 sentences so you can't stuff it all in the crawl.
    pronker and TreborSabreon like this.
  15. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    But if the point of using them is their established backstory, you have to use that backstory in the movie for the move to make sense. Otherwise you might as well let the writer and/or filmmaker(s) use their own creations. ANd if the only way to get that backstory is to read books.....as I said, thats not how you make a successful movie.

    The number of fans who read the novels is tiny compared to the number who see the movies. The books are (and should be) used to support the movies, not the other way around.
  16. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    WHere did they say this? The closet I've seen is Lucas including the EU in the "treasure trove" he is handing over to Kennedy. Which is FAR from them saying they will use any of it when making movies.
  17. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    The biggest thing to consider is the filmmakers.

    People are excited at the idea of new people, good creative writers, producers and directors, who grew up on Star Wars, maybe got into movei making because of Star Wars having a chance to work and play in the Universe. But nothing will turn those people off more (or at least some of them) then being forced to incorporate story ideas that not there own. Say Spielberg comes on board and wants direct, but he has his own ideas on where Luke and Leia are, and he doesn't want to include Jaina or Jacen? IS Kennedy or Disney going to force him to accept story elements he dosen't likeor want, or to throw out hte ideas he does have that don't fit with the EU? Howlong do you think he'd stick witht he project if that starts happening?

    Just as with the PT, the EU will have no baring on the movies, and they shouldn't. The best thing for Lucas Film to do would be announce that the EU is now being treated like the STar Trek EU, it exists, its there for you to enjoy, but the "offical' cannon is on a screen.
    kevmp, Padme501st and sidious1000 like this.
  18. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    The interdiction to love/care/attachment/marriage in the days of the pre-Civil War era does not have to be burrowed in the next Jedi Order.
    The old Jedi philosophy had some huge flaws regarding the way they viewed emotions. And I incline to believe that it wasn't marriage itself, but the interdiction to love which caused the downfall of Anakin. Think about it: it is because of that he kept the relationship secret. When he goes to ask Yoda for advice, the green guy simply says: Just let go of everything you fear to lose. Gee, thanks Grand Master. Thanks a lot for your insightful advice.

    The way they dealt with the whole control of emotions was just wrong: instead of teaching the Jedi how to not abuse their emotions, they are instead told not to love, not to get emotionally attached to anyone, just do their sterile duty of keepers of peace (at which the pre-Civil War Jedi failed miserably as well). The Jedi did not forbid emotional attachment because of the feeling itself, but because of the possible negative effects that such a relationship might have on the Jedi...
    So instead of teaching them how to deal with the negative emotions, they are told to purge emotions altogether. That's like saying the best way to keep termites out of your house is to not build a house in the first place.

    I like the fact that Lucas managed to show that the old Jedi Order was not so perfect and idyllic as we were led to believe in the OT. That's fine by me.
    But I sincerely hope that if Luke creates a new Order it will be different and their rules make more sense.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Nov 5, 2012
    SithLord_Darth_Vader and mavjade like this.
  19. Jobertus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3

    My point was to use the books to support the movies, not to use the movies to support the books. There are several allusions to events that take place in the books or off screen throughout the OT and the PT, so the same thing can be done with the ST (again, what TPTB end up doing with the ST will likely make this debate moot anyway). You don't have to go into detail to explain character's back stories, and GL didn't go deeply into background details with many of the characters in the previous trilogies and those films seemed to have some success IIRC.
  20. 13thsithlord Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 1
    I'm sure it was the rots novel that had it but didn't yoda admit that the reason the Jedi fell was that they failed to change whilst the sith reinvented themselves. I anakin had been able to tell yoda he was married to padme and scared she would die he may have been prevented from his fall. But hey yoda knew better......
  21. Lord Nikon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    I'm going to make this really easy on you.

    When you watched STAR WARS: A NEW HOPE for the first time...did you know who Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie, Obi-Wan, Threepio, and R2D2 were before the crawl?

    You did not.

    Every movie audience in history doesn't need a crash course in each characters backstory to feel comfy in the world with them. Don't be silly. They can certainly use Jacen, Jaina ect. and just freshly introduce them to the general audience....like every movie does with every character. It's not rocket science to spend an hour or so establishing the new characters and basing them off their EU counterparts. Sure, they'd probably be slightly different, but you don't need to have them sit there and tell you their life story to get in with them for the story they will tell in Episode VII...no more then you needed to hear about Han Solo's first 25 years of life and adventures to understand and enjoy his position ion the OT.

    So your argument holds next to zero water. Sorry dude. :)
    Last edited by Lord Nikon, Nov 5, 2012
  22. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    However at the same time, wouldn't an audience go... "Ben Skywalker, who is his mother?"

    At the end of the movie they'd still be going: "Who's his mom?"

    Yeah, problems from things like that I could see being quite a bit more than just a wrinkle in the story. Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin could be dropped in because we know who the parents are the moment someone says "Solo!"

    The problem comes from the axe crazy murder of characters in Del Rey's produced EU...
  23. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    I don't think its put in quite those terms, but yes, there is a conversation to that effect between Yoda and Obi-wan in the Ep. III Novel.
  24. Lord Nikon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    I think people are putting too much stock in revealing EVERYTHING about a character. What would be wrong with a little mystery about who his mom was an what happened to her? Fiction thrives on mystery. As long as who his mother is didn't weigh down on the tale they were telling with him, why would we need to know who she is, from a filmic standpoint anyways.

    Lets use ONCE UPON A TIME as an example...we only recently found out who Henry's mother was on that show....we spent a season and a half not having a clue
    Apophis_ likes this.
  25. Jobertus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3

    I don't feel that the "Who is his mom" issue is as big of an issue as it might seem and a conversation between Luke and Ben alluding to Mara could be had to explain it.

    Also, I'll reiterate that I am getting ahead of myself because we don't even know when the ST will take place (let alone if they will use Ben or Jaina), I'm just thinking (if they do use Ben and Jaina) 45 ABY is a perfect place to start and hoping TPTB agree with that sentiment.
    Apophis_ and Lord Nikon like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.