Speculation Why the NJO and Legacy Era are toast.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by stellarmagic01, Nov 5, 2012.

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Do you think the NJO and Legacy are going to Survive Episode VII?

Yes 59 vote(s) 27.6%
No 154 vote(s) 72.0%
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  1. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    We've been told Arndt is working off of treatements/outlines that Lucas wrote and we know he doesn't follow or really care abotu contridicting the EU. Kennedy said they don't have books to give them a template of were to go and everything was new original and original. There is also the logically position/thought that, if you are making a 150-200 million dollar movie you have to start at the beginning for the main characters so the audience can releate, follow and care about them and the story. Having the story follow 30 years of published material isn't how you do that.

    So then you have to ask, if the movie will/does change that much of the EU continuity are you better served making big, sweeping retcons that many new readers (the ones you are hoping to attract with a new movie) won't know about thus making their entry into the EU universe/material more difficult and confusing (and with 40-50 books worth of material, there already is a big barrier to entry). Or would they make more money by restarting it, and producing a product that is made to tie into the movie, is easy for all readers to pick up and enjoy, and can/will/could lead to more material down the road?

    Also keep in mind they have 2 more moneys coming, plus whatever tv shows and/or movies they want to make after Episode VII. Given the direction they will/want too/could go, its unlikely that current EU will stand, it just takes away too many oppertunities for Disney and Lucasfilm to tell stories.
  2. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Ehh... no. I think I'm safe in saying that those of us that read the Expanded Universe would prefer Mara Jade Skywalker, Ben Skywalker, Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, and Anakin Solo are not retconned out of existence.

    Yes, there is bad fiction in the EU, there is also good fiction in the EU. And... guess what. Media Tie-in writing usually is fanfiction with a pay check, so what? There are fanfictions that are better then the original material, so your point about fanfiction is rather... pointless. If you want the movies to just be the movies, watch the movie when it comes out... we're not saying you need to read the books, we're just saying there are some things that should be given a nod.

    I personally want to see only part of the EU accepted for background... the Bantam Books we can keep, most of the Del Rey ones can be binned and labeled Infinities, and Lucas can tell the story he wants without destroying the Bantam era characters fairly easily, I'd think (Unless he is so set on an unmarried Skywalker).
  3. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    I showed some actual tie-in media authors the above post and asked them for their opinions on it, and here's what I received:
    I also asked the above authors whether or not there were some general 'rules' in place regarding tie-in media, and these are the responses I received to that question:
    Last edited by Jango_Fett21, Nov 18, 2012
  4. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    They'll never be retconned out of existence. They'll always exist in those books and those books will always exist.

    We are just in a position now where we will most likely get new stories and a new takes on the characters post RotJ. And there is a very good chance we'll get a whole net collection of EU material to support that new take. It doesn't destory those other stories, it just means we get new/different ones that are seperate.
  5. krtmd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    @Jango_Fett21 - I didn't want to quote your whole post, but thanks for sharing what those authors had to say. It was enlightening, to say the least.
  6. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    The point is that Lucas will not be confined by material created by other authors in the EU and he shouldn't. He will make the story he wants and if some of the post ROTJ EU fits after he's done telling the real story then that's great for those fans all the stuff that's contradicted will be collateral damage that Disney and Lucas could care less about. He's done it before.
  7. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    As I posted upthread - the Internet, specifically Wookiepedia and Wikipedia.

    TCW seems to have gained a following (not me, but then I can't access the channel(s) it's on where I live). Also the OT is getting regular re-screenings on our broadcast TV (the type that anyone can access with an ordinary telly).

    Now what if a TCW fan wants more information on Yoda, Obi-Wan, Palpatine and googles them? Same goes for virtually any character in the OT? That fan will instantly be presented with all the deeds - Film and EU, cross-referenced with other characters (mostly EU) that fit into their tale. If that fan burrows through the links and finds a character that really takes his or her interest (say Corran Horn or Mara Jade, perhaps even Allana Djo Solo) and goes into Ep 7 thinking that their favourite character will be on screen -- and then finds out that they aren't -- and not only that but the Jedi Order itself is an entirely different shape to what the Internet says it is; aren't they going to be very disenchanted? Would they then show any great enthusiasm for seeing Ep 8 and/or Ep 9?.
  8. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    Yeah I supposed they would be disenchanted but who cares? Not Disney or Lucas. 95% of the people that are going to see the ST will not be familiar with the EU. My friends consider me a huge Star Wars nerd and I know very little EU. Lucas is not gonna pander to those fans or care if there has to be major re-writes to wookiepdia. He has thousands of un-paid writers who will fight over the chance to revise wookiepedia.
    Last edited by gregvader123, Nov 18, 2012
  9. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    No they won't because most fans don't go to that extreme and the ones who do without reading a lot of the EU most likely aren't that attached to the material. There was a huge backlash from fans and a lack of enthusiasm in the movies when Lucas changed things (like jedi not having families, only 2 Sith etc... that was out ther ebefore the movies).
    gregvader123 likes this.
  10. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Somewhere on these boards is a cautionary tale about disenchanted movie-goers getting onto the social-media (Facebook, Twitter etc) to such an extent that the disenchantment 'went viral' - that film's producers etc. cared all right! IIRC the film did rather badly.
  11. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Which movie

    And it happen with the PT and the changes Lucas made to it.

    Regardless, Kennedy has already said they aren't use the books as inspiration and going in their own direction with Lucas's guidence.
  12. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    As to which movie (and even if it was on this or the Temp Boards), I've forgotten - and I'm not going to waste time or Data-Credit looking for it.

    I also don't think that Facebook, Twitter, BBM etc were really established back in the PT days (those were the days of dial-up Internet through phone lines from a desktop computer, these days it's all mobile broadband on their equally mobile phones) - so now all the kids have access to some form of Social Network, even down to 8 year-olds (regardless of anyone's rules) if their parents have said it's OK - and they use them!
  13. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    But the fans would still have to be upset about the changes Lucas made to the movies. The social networking didn't create the opinions, just gave people at platform to share them. So if that many fans are/were/would be upset by changes to established universe stuff (As you're suggesting) why weren't they upset at the PT? Why were they still hugely successful?

    I'm sorry batter, but from what has been said it doesn't like much (if any) of the EU will make it into the ST (at last in a significant way), which will change much of the EU. And the movie will still be successful. You can choose to be excited abotu the future of Star Wars and the prospect of getting new stories and new characters to invest in brought to you by new creative people/teams or you can choose to be bitter about what is and is not included in the "offical" time line of a fictional universe.
    Last edited by fenton, Nov 18, 2012
  14. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    Are you referring to how Jar Jar was written out of the PT? That was because he was in an actual Star Wars movie and he was a terrible character. The vast majority of the people who will be buying tickets for Episode VII will not care or even know if any EU is contradicted. People who will complain about disrespecting EU are EU fans and we all know not a single EU fan is gonna boycott Episode VII because Lucas dismissed their precious EU stories.

    Lucas upset a bunch of people with TPM when he made "changes" to HIS STORY.
    It's gonna happen again. ST is gonna bulldoze right through all the post ROTJ EU and those fans will be left trying to retconn what little they can salvage in the aftermath once Episode VII tells it how it is.
    Let it go.
  15. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    The difference fenton is that the changes have a direct effect on characters that have been known and loved for as long as 25-30 years. You think the Mara Jade fans won't be screaming at the top of their lungs if Luke never had a kid and never married? You remember the grumbles the fans had over Boba Fett being a clone... that'll pale in comparison to what this could possibly do if things like the Solo twins, Luke's marriage, and other popular features of the EU are wiped away.

    We're not exactly all fans of the plot lines of the EU because a lot of them suck, but we're fans of the characters and how they interact with the OT cast in the EU. Mara Jade for instance is the only EU character to break into the top 20 at IGN's list of Star Wars characters. In fact fans were calling for a reboot before this announcement because they were unhappy with the post-NJO EU... However, even they I believe would be most upset with getting rid of everything.
  16. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    Boba Fett being a clone of Jango Fett was a result of the screenwriting acrobatics Lucas had to do to shoehorn him in the PT. And he did it because Fett was a popular character IN A STAR WARS MOVIE. Do you think for a second that he would be in there if he didn't have a cult following? Lucas just as well could have had IG-88 and his protype "father" be the template for the droid army in TPM if it were IG-88 were the "cool" bounty hunter that got referenced in episodes of Family Guy and other pop culture.

    Lucas has also been quoted as saying: "If I had known that Boba Fett would become so popular I wouldn't have had him go out like such a bitch in Return of the Jedi."

    And I can see how you might think that Mara is the perfect candidate for shoe-horning since she is so popular but the bottom line is she isn't a Lucas created character and she didn't appear in a Star Wars movie. Fett did. That fact makes her expendable. She is too complex a character to include because Lucas will have to explain why there is now an elderly jedi wife of Luke who is only a supporting background character. It's too much baggage that requires exposition, and the ST need exposition like I need another hole in the head. I strongly feel that Luke is going to continue the celibate Jedi tradition in the ST and Skywalker descendents will come from Leia. Lucas has more or less hinted at that before.
  17. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Well, technically speaking, the Jedi are not celibate in the PT. It's attachments that are forbidden, not "friends with benefits".

    Also, Leia is supposed to be come a Jedi, too, according to the ending of ROTJ.
  18. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    Regarding the 'EU material is monetrially meaningless next to the movies' argument, it should be noted that while yes, various tie-in materials are less valuable than the movies (though it's worth noting that in Star Wars the highest gross sales volume has actually come from the toys), that is less relevant than the issue of the movies influencing the current EU versus whatever is to happen in the universe following the sequel trilogy.

    Additional tie-in material to follow the movies is a huge monetary consideration, one spread across dozens of media and mounting to hundreds of millions of dollars. There is a very real question of how to treat the old material vis a vis new material that will be made in the shadow of the ST. The history of Star Wars is one of a single continuity, sustained by complex and sometimes torturous retconns. The alternative is a series of seperate, divided continuities that will all be effectively competing against each other to tell the same story. Whether or not to set Star Wars at war with itself, in a way competing comic book continuities sometimes are, is a complex choice, with several possibilities and considerable consequence for future sales and future fan choices.

    Additionally, people are vastly over-estimating how much work has to be undertaken to preserve some or all of the EU in more or less its current state. This is operating from the faulty assumption that something not referenced is destroyed, when in fact the opposite is largely true. As long as the ST is set during a natural break in the timeline, meaning in the 25-30 ABY range or 45+ ABY then all previous material can easily stand. Think about just how much EU material references events that happened immediately prior to the movies, and is never referenced and still stands up fine. Yes, the order in which it was written would be different, but that doesn't actually matter. A modest timegap is more than sufficient to push even shockingly dramatic events into the past to the opint they need not be referenced.

    For example: you could set the ST in 25 ABY with a large role by Luke and never even mention Mara. That doesn't mean she wouldn't have existed, maybe she died in 23 ABY. Two years is more than long enough to be out of mourning, Luke's unlikely to be involved in a romance at that age, and unless the plot somehow demanded a reference to his marital status, how would anyone even know?
  19. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    If episode VII were to be set say 8-10 years after ROTJ then I can absolutely see Lucas shoe-horning Mara Jade into the ST, (if he wanted to forgo the celibacy and give Luke's character arc a love interest/romance.)

    But it's too far removed from the OT and Luke and Leia will more than likely be supporting characters. Having Mara at that age will require too much exposition for a supporting character.

    And once again the money Lucasfilm makes from books is highly over-estimated. Lucas and Co are not gonna handle EU with kid gloves because they don't give a ****. And besides, the new trilogy and the characters and events that it will introduce will be the manure for a whole new crop of EU dreck to grow in. Very few tears will be shed for the current post ROTJ EU
  20. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I do not anticipate Luke Skywalker being anything but a supporting character in the ST... at most he'll have as big a role as Obi-Wan in Episode IV. However, you guys keep overestimating the amount of work it'd require to drop Mara into the ST. I could do it in three lines of dialog, in a council meeting, and walk her off stage... it's not that damn difficult. Moreover if I was to choose a theme for the ST it'd be family... so I'd really hesitate to ignore the Skywalker and Solo families from the EU. That's your bloody theme, the next generation! Use them, damn it!

    Yes I know it's not Lucas's character but she is the product of one of the only people to have a clear influence on the PT... Coruscant anyone? Before any of you say that's just swapping names... no it wasn't. Hab Abbadon was a fully designed planet by Lucas... you know what it was like? Mustafar.

    You know what would take a ton of work to use in the ST? Jaina Solo... I'm sorry but the amount of baggage there begs belief, and guess what... most people seem to think she's likely one of the protagonists of the new trilogy along with Ben! What a mess if you're right and all those disappointed fans complain about her not being in the movie.

    Baggage/backstory could be best summarized as: What you need to know about the character for him/her actions to make sense?

    Mara Jade Skywalker: What the audience needs to know.
    • She's Luke's wife.
    • She's Ben's mother.
    Jaina Solo: What the audience needs to know if you use the whole EU.
    • She's Han and Leia's daughter.
    • She's lost all her siblings.
    • She's been forced to kill her twin.
    • She's fought in two galaxy wide wars.
    • Her life has sucked.
    Without the NJO you can cross three of those off the list at least.

    Ben Skywalker: What the audience needs to know.
    • He's the son of Luke and Mara.
    Now as an aside about Ben... you know everyone in the General Audience will be like 'Who's his mom?' because well... 1. Luke has a kid when he had no previously known love interest and 2. Luke is raising a boy when most single parent homes are independent mothers. It's odd and people don't like odd. Faceless and no information is cool... no parental figure isn't.
  21. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I think they will until the movie comes out, they see the change (whatever it is) and then they'll fine with it (the same comic fans complain until the change happen, then go with it and the change becomes part of the character). There will be a very small (but vocal) group of Star Wars fans who will complain, and most of them will only complain for a limited time before they go to the movies, watch the tv shows and buy the new books again.

    And its not like Mara Jade will erased from existence. She''ll still exist in all the books she exists in now, there will just be new material with new stories out there.

    And as i said, its most likely whats going to happen. So as a far its your choice. Screaming at the top of your lungs and be bitter about it, or embrace the change for it is.
  22. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    But why should or will Lucas, Kennedy, Arndt, disney and any future creative brought in be bound by what was written in a book 20 years ago that a small percent of fans read? If Lucas had to be BEGGED to keep the name of a planet the same (and the differences are not as big as your making it sound) what are the odds that he'll keep 20-30 years of history for his main character the same?

    What if they don't want LUke to have a wife or a son? What if Lucas has his own idea about who Lukes wife is? Or what his child/children are? Its great that you can come up with what you want to see, but Kennedy has said they don't hve a book series to draw from. I wouldn't count on seeing mara jade.
    gregvader123 likes this.
  23. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    I can see why you want Mara to be in it but she is just a too highly developed character to include as a supporting character without being distracting. You want her to be like Aunt Beru but Aunt Beru worked because she was an ordinary mundane character. If the audience found out that Aunt Beru had a lightsaber and could choke you out with her mind then they would be like "Whoa! Back Up!" It's too distracting to be integrated as seemlessly as it needs to be.
  24. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    Had Abbadon was like Coruscant (a city planet) with the emperors throne room beneath the city surrounded by lava like Mustafar. That in turn was originally supposed to be the site of Darth Vaders "castle" in ESB but wasn't used for budget reasons (no joke)

    And just look at the bullet points you listed under Jaina. That's major stuff! Lots of explaining. You don't just gloss over killing your force-using twin.And those are major galactic events involving Skywalkers. The major events that involve Skywalkers should be covered in the movies.

    Again, Mara is moot because Lucas has said he would not have gone in the direction of Luke getting married and by extension we can assume Lucas never intended Luke to have offspring.
  25. cronedoggy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 1
    I'd argue that everything after EP6 can be said to owe its existence to the EU. If the shadows of the empire multimedia project failed, george wasn't going to go ahead on the Special editions or the prequels. If it weren't for the rise of the EU in 1991, would star wars have drawn in the younger audience and have a built in fan base of young ones when the PT hit? The dark forces games helped drawn in a young crowd at a time when adults didn't really play a lot of video games.
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