Speculation Why the NJO and Legacy Era are toast.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by stellarmagic01, Nov 5, 2012.

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Do you think the NJO and Legacy are going to Survive Episode VII?

Yes 59 vote(s) 27.6%
No 154 vote(s) 72.0%
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  1. gregvader123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2012
    star 2
    Yeah it did do good things once upon a time but that time is past and Lucas isn't going to make nice or even make apologies when he doesn't make nice with EU. He's moving on. It served it's purpose and he owes it nothing. New EU will be created. Vast, massive amounts of EU will come in the wake of the ST, that is my prophecy. No tears will be shed for the past EU.
  2. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    People really, really, need to stop taking the acronym EU and doing this mental translation that returns the words 'Star Wars Novels.' That is simply not accurate and reduces many of these anti-EU arguments to ridiculous straw man issues. Yes, books are part of the EU, so are comics, so are video games, so are film productions like 'The Worlds of Star Wars' planetarium presentation, and most importantly: so are the toys based off of materials produced in the EU and not in the movies.

    The EU, and even the significantly smaller creation that is the post 4 ABY series of events (which is still bound through various links to the rest), are not miniscule or insignificant. Yes they don't have the impact of the movies (though if The Old Republic had miraculously toppled World of Warcraft this would be a different story entirely), but there shear size of the Star Wars franchise means that the EU is a lot of money in absolute terms even if it happens to be only a small percentage of the total value Lucasfilm is capable of producing. We are still talking about hundreds of millions of dollars, just because the movies are working in the low billions doesn't suddenly make that irrelevant to the bottom line.

    Prophecy? Awfully confident aren't we?

    It amazes me how casually everyone is regarding the torching of what is quite possibly the largest single space opera universe that has ever been created or, because of unique rights issues, ever going to be created. That's an astonishing thing to throw out just because one can.

    The EU has had value for a very long time, both monetary and interest value, and still does. The EU saved the franchise from the Prequels. They were able to take something awful and pull the hardcore fans back into it, sustaining the essential buzz. In this way the EU functions something like a safety-net for the franchise, as it allows the direction of Star Wars to self correct over time to make certain that the fanbase is still getting what it wants.

    Everyone needs to keep in mind something regarding this issue and regarding everything about Episode VII-IX: there is a possibility that the movies could be awful.

    The Prequels were able to be awful (and let's not kid ourselves here, I & II are really quite poor films, III is a solid-to-good movie on its own, but it's nothing on the originals) both because they were telling a backstory and everyone kept watching out of an impulse to fill in the details even when they were bad, and because the continuity was able to build off what they left trailing. The Sequels are moving into completely uncharted territory, and if you blow up the EU you make the distance into Star Wars incognita far, far larger.

    You also risk prejudicing the fanbase. Yes the true EU fans are a tiny portion of the overall Star Wars fanbase. Guess what: in the modern fractured media environment we now live in, it is the superfans who have become the gatekeepers. It is people like we members on this board, hanging on every announcement and word, who have a massive impact on the direction of the buzz that will ultimately form. Blockbusters depend on opening weekends now, and bad press can be catastrophic. Destroying the EU is a way to aggravate the very people whose unconditional support is most relevant for these movies.

    To use myself as an example: in a scenario where the EU is preserved, pretty much regardless of the buzz, I'll see Episode VII on opening day. I'll probably take a day off to do it, and if it's good, I won't be able to stop talking about it for a week. If the EU is willfully disregarded, I'll go see it whenever my schedule opens up and I'll watch the movie expecting the worst, silently comparing it to the EU version in my head the whole time.

    Now maybe Disney doesn't care, maybe they don't think that matters, but since it is actually extremely simple to work around the existing EU, at worst letting the NJO and post-dates go, I don't see why they'd take the risk.
    kataja, Kyris Cavisek and tsunami1138 like this.
  3. LawJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2009
    star 4
    I wish that were true, but it's just not exactly accurate. The truth is that the New 52 isn't going anywhere, and the old DC continuity is unfortunately gone for good. They may soft-boot back in old details, but it would be disastrous to pretend like they could just go back to Fall 2011 continuity. Their top books are still selling ridiculously well, and their strongest selling tool, according to VP Bob Wayne, has been the actual branding of "The New 52" and "reboot." Meaning the idea of "new" has been their strongest asset to increase sales.

    Their titles still have a steady hold in the Top 10, and have a robust TPB market. Also, they're holding almost equal market share $ with Marvel, a company that puts out a LOT more product. DC has made Superman, Wonder Woman, and Aquaman actual viable properties, and are turning Watchmen and Constantine into more profitable franchises. None of that is meant to be a statement of quality. ;)

    The analogy is also flawed, because DC is currently doing next to nothing to tie their comics in with multimedia projects, like their DC Nation cartoon block, or the TDK trilogy. They're current sales are based on elbow grease. That won't be the case with a Disney-era Star Wars EU.
  4. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    I want Mara in there. She deserves to be in there. Hell, IIRC, i think that even Hamill stated when he was told about Luke marrying Mara that it was a great idea - of course, this was somewhere on Wookiepedia.
    I think he also hated her death as well.
    lukemaraben and kataja like this.
  5. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    Oh wow, now THIS takes me back to 3SA. EU bashing. Just like old times. You know George has taken stuff from the EU in the past, greg? Don't mock it, you mock my battle scars from the canon wars.

    I think it's just too soon to speculate what will happen with the new trilogy, but I can bet it will overrules the EU in a similar it has happened to the Star Trek franchise. It's already happening with the Clone Wars cartoon series anyway, this time it's on a larger scale.

    I think the EU, good as it is (or rather was) has had it's day in the sun. It was all done thinking we'd never have an episode VII, and trying to adapt the novels to screen wouldn't good at all.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  6. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
  7. chris hayes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2012
    star 4
    It's a pitty Disney didn't buy Lucas films back in 1995 then you might have had a film come out in 1999 called 'Balance of the Force' with a perfectly cast 16yo Anakin Skywalker & a film in 2002 called 'The clone wars begin' with a hugely toned down romance with great acting.....so what I'm saying is there is a chance that the EU will not be toast & Lucas's version of EP7 will be fixed by Arndt .
  8. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    I think that all (what I term) the EU-philes will be satisfied with a trilogy that doesn't go out of its way to disturb the existing continuity too much. By 'go out of its way', I mean wilfully contradict for reasons that are not central to the plot.

    These days, even Mega-corporarions might have to watch what they do regarding consumer choice - what happened to Microsoft set a precedent and I seem to recall that 'consumer choice' was the hook used to hang that Investigation and Legal Action on.
    tsunami1138 likes this.
  9. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Some of the novels would be very translatable to the screen, IMHO; the X-Wing series in particular - maybe not live-action on the Big Screen, but CGI adaptations into a TV series or to DVD would, considering their reported popularity, probably be a goer.

    The Thrawn Trilogy might well work as well.
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Nov 19, 2012
  10. kevmp Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2011
    star 2
    Why is Obi-Wan being 57 in ANH a contradiction? Alec Guiness was 61 when they filmed ANH, not that much of a difference. Don't forget, he lived in a desert that will age anyone's skin pretty fast
  11. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Even AS as a boy is not a contradiction since Obi-Wan never mentioned his age in ROTJ (I kind of wish he did).
  12. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2010
    star 1
    Mechalich:


    Luke's marital status is likely to be of major interest to movie-goers, at least insofar that if he's indeed married (or was once married), viewers will naturally expect to learn of it and of his wife's identity. Not even mentioning those very important personal developments for Luke in the movie and instead revealing them in other sources would IMO not go over well with audiences.


    You seem in this statement to believe your opinion to be fact, the very sin you basically accused gravevader of. In the opinion of myself and others, even attempting to work around the existing EU would be a difficult and time-consuming endeavor that would probably prove impossible as more and more ST-related material is produced, and not worth the effort in any case given the advantages of giving the ST a completely blank slate continuity-wise.
  13. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Sorry I've been gone for a few days, is Fenton now Darth Greg...? Great Name!

    Allow me to theorize if you will
    Do you want the original cast? Chances are people are going to say YES
    Assuming we have the original cast it has to be 40-50 ABY...
    Do we really think that nothing happened for the past 30-40 years? No
    Are they going to fill that in with brand no material? Probably not, they will allow the EU to exist
    Will the EU material be referenced? Probably not, except maybe throw away lines toward Thrawn or someone of equal popularity.
    What about EU characters? This may be where people will be the most happy. You may get characters like Corran and Kyle in there.
    What about the Skywalker Solo Kids? 50/50 break in probability they may be used.
    If the plot requires Chewie will he be used? Yes, then the EU will find a way to correct itself.
    If the plot needs to trample a portion of the EU will it? Yes.

    So about Lucas, Hamill, and Disney and the character of Luke Skywalker...
    Hamill liked Mara and Ben
    Lucas praised the Thrawn trilogy however saw Luke as staying single.
    Disney doesn't want a trilogy. It wants a franchise. It wants a Saga. It wants toy sales and possible video games. It wants all of it.
    Lucas is a creative adivsor to Disney now. If he says, I really wanted Luke to be single, and Disney says we would really like the Skywalker name to continue. Disney wins.
    Lucas has retired. Inevitably when something he doesn't like happens within the films. He will be the first to say, that wasn't in my vision, even if it was. Then fans like Greg will yell because Disney isn't doing what Lucas wants. He sold it. He was the father, but now he is the uncle.
    Last edited by Kyris Cavisek, Nov 19, 2012
    Tim Battershell likes this.
  14. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I think the big fear about the EU is part quality and part quanity.

    EU fans enjoy continuing stories, and I sit and argue about minor characters like Kunor Bann and Seff Hellin ect.
    Reciently, the EU has had high points and low points. Most of the Low points coming in LotF and FotJ. This allows for the Anti EU supporters to claim the EU is terrible. Like anything it has it's highs and lows.

    Anti EU fans have heard about the EU through reviews and Wookieepedia. They understand there is 50 years worth timeline to catch up on. While they might be willing to do it, they doubt the movie goer will be able to follow the plot, and believe that puts shakles on the ST creators and writers. This isn't true.

    Leave the EU alone, don't go out of your way to destory it. If you want Luke single, make Luke single. Mara Jade would still join his order, just in a different role. We would have to deal with Ben being erased from continuity. Ben will be retconned in the books to something along the lines as a not true "Skywalker" he was an orphan who Luke adopted/allowed to use his name.

    Bring back Chewie, the EU will bend around it. It may be tough but they will do it.

    But Ardnt has Lucas's notes. Lucas originally had a bunch of ideas about the Saga, tiny people, Leia as the central character, two father Anakin and Vader, ect... But Ardnt also has the EU to look at. He probably is busy researching and trying to put together a movie script that makes everyone happy. He may like Ben or Jaina, or Jacen, or Chewie, or Corran, or Kyle. He will include what interests him, and try to appease everyone.
  15. kevmp Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2011
    star 2
    True we just assumed he was an adult when they first met. However when Obi talks a bit about Anakin and the Clone Wars in ANH, saying "he was the best star pilot in the galaxy" and "he was a good friend" are both accurate
  16. kevmp Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2011
    star 2
    l
    Last edited by kevmp, Nov 19, 2012
  17. kevmp Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2011
    star 2
    Having Corran Horn and Ben appear would be cool. And let's not forget that two EU Characters DID make into the prequels: Aayla Secura and Quinlan Vos. Admittedly, Vos was only mentioned in ROTS and then retconned to have appeared in TPM. He does appear in TCW and that is higher canon level than any EU novel or comic.
    Kyris Cavisek likes this.
  18. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Yeah, Aayla Secura, Quinlan Vos, and Mara Jade are the only ones I'm aware of that have appearances in G-Level Canon (Mara is in disguise in the RoTJ radio play, Vos is given a throw away line, and Secura is actually seen).

    Right now I'm working on putting together a video to explain what I think would be the best way to handle the situation, not that many people will pay attention to it on you tube once I'm done.
  19. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Good on you! Wish I had that sort of skill!
  20. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I'm writing the script now... It's starting to sound like one of those Prequel trilogy review videos.
  21. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    This is very true, I think. And question isn't whether LFL knows this, but how much they think we're willing to swallow. The deeps rifts the EU has already left in the fanbase might work against the EU itself. o_O

    Again, I agree completely. And Disney didn't pay 4,05 billion dollars to make one movie that succeeds on its heritage. They didn't even pay that for the trilogy and accompanying franchise - they bought a Legacy. The last thing they're going to start with is to butcher huge chunks of it.

    Exactly. It's not hard to to at all. All they have to do it to set the ST far enough into the future that they don't need to mention the EU much. Even if they want to reboot - that would still be the smartest thing to do - if Episode VII is a succes, they'll already have much more leeway from the fans.

    And if the ST lives up to our hopes , we'll probably start to beg them to fix the post ROTJ canon.:p


    As I said above - it's not hard to work around it at all. Just set the trilogy far enough out on the timeline. You want Luke & co in it? Well, this is science fiction... how hard can it be?

    Probably. Especially if Lukes in it, as well as some youngling carrying the name Skywalker. But again it's not difficult. Flashbacks are a classic, but it doesn't even have to fill that much - let Luke stop by a holo of a woman and look whistful for a moment. That should dot it, maybe paired with a namedrop or a halfspoken memory of a situation they were in. A bit like Anakin's comment to Obi-Wan about the Gundark nest.


    Sounds good. Could you send the link to me when it's finished, please?
    tsunami1138 likes this.
  22. poundpuppy29 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2007
    This is how I keep it straight the movies are one universe the books are several universes and comics are another universe and the T.V. Show is it's own universe somethings happen in all but they have their own canon. I am scifi fan so I am very familiar with Alternate Universes or AU I hope that helps some people and if I don't like something it didn't happen in my own personal SW AU.
  23. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    That's what happens in the Star Trek franchise, even with the films themselves.

    And yes, they could work around the EU or adapt it, but I don't think they will.
  24. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    This is only true if Luke, or Han or Leia, plays a leading role. Which they aren't going to (okay, they could, but that's pretty much guaranteed to result in bad movies, so it's not wroth talking about). If any of the Big Three, or Lando, or Wedge show up in new movies it will be in a minor capacity, they probably won't even be on-screen for more than a few minutes. Even if Luke plays a Yoda role, how much time was Yoda really in ESB for? And how much did you know about Yoda? The answer: not much. At that time we didn't know where Yoda was from, what his species was called (still don't), or any details of what he'd been doing while training for Eight Hundred Years. Yoda could have been married, he could have had dead kids, he could have ruled half the galaxy for a century, but the answers to those questions were not relevant to the plot and had nothing to do with the film.

    The history of Star Wars is about audiences latching on to characters based on very little and then a backstory being added once their resonance with fans had been established. Boba Fett is one of the most popular characters in the Star Wars universe, he has something like 17 words total in ESB and ROTJ, and yet the amount of words written about him in the EU stretches into the millions.

    My opinion, not, the ease of working around the EU to make new movies is pretty much a fact of Star Wars. All Star Wars films start in medias res, with nothing but a 75-80 word crawl to frame the previous events, the level of turnover from film to film and certainly from series to series is close to 100%. Characters, even ones in seemingly secure and important positions of authority, vanish never to return between the films. Half the Jedi High Council turns over during the Prequels. After all, Wedge managed to reach nearly iconic status simply by managing to be in all three OT movies.

    Here's how easy is it to integrate the EU: You pick a date in the continuity. 25-ABY is a good one, naturally situated, but there's plenty of other options. Then you say: 'All EU stops here, done finished over. Then you put in a 2-5 year blank space with a mere three words of detail: 'Galaxy in conflict.' Then you make new movies that reference precisely what you want and everything you don't has been smoothly removed offscreen where it need not ever be referenced.

    Finally, this has already been done. It's exaclty what Del Rey did when they launched the NJO! They jumped forward 6 years, cherry picked some characters they felt like keeping, and then bulldozed ahead with something completely different. Borsk Fey'la's entire species, and him personnally end Vision of the Future in absolute disgrace, but somehow he is Chief of State by Vector Prime, no explanation was given at the time, and none was necessary. It simply isn't that challenging to accomplish.

    And there is no 'completely blank slate' available. The ST will be bound by the continuity of the extant films and probably TCW (for whatever that's worth). That means there's no escaping the events depicted from 4-19 ABY in the EU. The main general trends: gradual fracturing and downfall of the Empire, rise of the New Republic, and rebirth of the Jedi all absolutely must occur. Everything else is merely details.
    tsunami1138 likes this.
  25. Deciple_of_Malak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 4
    Hold your nerdrage horses, do you realise how many aspects of movies, yes actual Star Wars movies, owe their existence to the EU and people aside from Lucas who worked on it.
    And while yes, bits of EU may seem like fanfiction, where do you draw the line of what is fanfiction and waht isn't? Prequels are offshoot of the originals and TCW is the ofshoot of prequels and the life continues. My point is that EU also has some material that is by far better that say some poorly written scenes in the Prequels. Thus, your expression "garbage" also needs a definition.
    lukemaraben and tsunami1138 like this.
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