Speculation Why the NJO and Legacy Era are toast.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by stellarmagic01, Nov 5, 2012.

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Do you think the NJO and Legacy are going to Survive Episode VII?

Yes 59 vote(s) 27.6%
No 154 vote(s) 72.0%
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  1. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    And which (depending on when it takes place) may exclude all the books you listed from the official continuity (canon).
  2. werpudel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2008
    star 1
    I really get the feeling that all those EU bashers are guys for whom only the OT really "counts". The EU is just "fan fiction" because it wasn't GL's story. let me ask you 2 questions then

    1.) why do most of you hate the PT so much? In the end, this is exactly GL's vision
    2.) how do you imagine that the last, roughly, 45 years IU have passed? (since, as the big 3 will most certainly return, EP VII will be set app. 50 ABY) what has happened in this time? It's just not feasible that the GFFA would have passed this time in peace/stasis/whatever

    things were just bound to happen. if you don't like the EU - fine. but there are things for everybody in it. there were large scale wars, there were more personal stories, Luke reestablished the JK, the Empire didn't immediately implode with the detruction of the DSII. I think most of these EU bashers wish that we get a new movie right after EP VI, but that just won't happen. so why not let the EU be intact? There's no need to establish a completely new backstory (and there has to be a backstory), even if EP VII will be an "original" story. you can easily do that without rebooting everything.
    Kyris Cavisek likes this.
  3. mattman8907 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 3
    i mean i have no problem with it. i mean the last story from the EU that i truly really read was Shadows of the Empire.
  4. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    @stellarmagic01, @"Kyris Cavisek

    Enemy 1: Revamp Vong

    Possible - but could their unique biotech be made comprehensible? Without it, they're just another bunch of guys with blasters. Would things like dovin basals grab the audience - attention wise, I mean!

    Enemy 2: One Sith

    You guys are always talking about characters' 'baggage', well how about A'sharad Hett/Krayt's? Also the differences between and history of the RoT Sith and One Sith would need to be made clear - atm audiences only know about one variety of Sith. The numbers issue is also relevant - how have they grown numerous enough to become an undetected threat if the Galaxy hasn't put many distractions in the Jedi's way.

    Enemy 3: Lost Tribe

    This is a possible, provided the numbers aren't overwhelming (reduce the time they've been marooned to 1500 - 2000 years, maybe). The film could start with a survey ship responding to an old short-range distress beacon. The crew lands, greets the locals - who promptly whip out red Lightsabers! Who they are and why they're there can be handled in a short amount of dialogue - Sith leader ranting at Ship's Captain, maybe.

    Enemy 4: Fallen Jedi

    Unlikely to be sufficeiently numerous to threaten Galactic stability over the period of an entire Trilogy before being hunted down and dealt with, don't you think?

    Enemy 5: Empire

    Peace treaty signed in 19 ABY - precisely because there was a power vacuum and rivals had used up so many resources in dominance fights; while the Rebellion let them weaken themselves. Lop off any potential new Emperor (probably not a Force-user) and repeat until it starts to look like bullying!

    Enemy 6: Rule of Two Sith

    If any exist, they'd be in the early stages of hatching their next 1000 year masterplan at this point!

    Enemy 7: Mandalorians with Droid Backup or Ysalamiri

    Forgotten the lesson of Galidraan already, have they - 299 Mando dead out of 300 against 11 out of 20 Jedi and an unrecorded number of Judicials? Ysalamiri don't seem to be known about by Mandos, either.

    Enemy 8: Elite Forces (Average Jedi really aren't that invulnerable. 212 went to Geonosis, 30 came out alive)

    With the exception of the Council Members, who were the Jedi there? Archivists/Service Corps people perhaps - that's what happens in a crisis; see WW2 battles where cooks, batmen, stores types etc. were rounded up, handed a rifle and pushed into the firing line! The Geonosis arena scene was great visually, but (as someone else has pointed out) sucked tactically. With freedom of manoeuvre (and Force Power application - guiding ultra-long-range blaster shots into a selected target, distracting sentries while infiltrating to blow up supplies, causing landslides etc.) my money would be on the Jedi.

    Enemy 9: Hostile Politicians in the New Republic (Hey... they got an army)

    Possible, as we've seen in FotJ, but could be easily countered by setting up one or more of the said politicians for assassination (through a cutout or cutouts - fake names are very handy too) with the intent that Jedi step in at the last moment to save their lives, thereby garnering gratitude from the politicians and public relations plaudits from the Media and citizenry.

    Enemy 10: Any Government with a Standing Army above a million men.

    More something that would be handled by the conventional Military, I would think - Luke would almost certainly be very wary of Jedi in Command roles (considering what happened last time!), although Jedi strike teams might be employed in the Commando/Intelligence role.
  5. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Why does it have to be 40-50 years later when the cast is 30 years older?
    No one is saying nothing has happened, just like stuff happened to LUke in 20 years or so of his life leading up to ANH. But its 1) The enormity of things that happened. You don't make a character like Luke in ANH as someone who saved a planet from destruction and killed his brother etc.... You make their lives leading up to the movie "normal" so the audience can jump on easier and 2) Lucas and the new creative people will bring their own ideas to what has happened.
    Why wouldn't take the oppertunity to create new EU material to sell? And having big, sweeping retcons isn't the way to make the material more accessable and sell more.
    Jacen, Jaina, Ben....wont' be used.

    If Disney wants a franchise that it can keep mining, keeping and maintaining a long, complicated continuity that future movies must fit around isn't the way to go.

    LUcas may be the uncle, but Kennedy (The new mother) is saying she is still working closely with him and the movies will still be his vision.
  6. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Why would Disney, who willw ant to sell Books and EU material to go these lengths to make their product harder to follow and less inviting for new readers to pick up rather then just re-start it fresh, have it tie into their new movie/trilogy/franchise? IF the idea is to get people who see Episode VII to go out and buy a novel, wouldn't they need to make that novel tie into the movie in some way and make that novel as inviting and easy to jump into as possible?
  7. werpudel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2008
    star 1
    honestly, do you really think that disney is gonna ditch the old EU so they can start putting out HUNDREDS of books to fill in the whole time-line again? they just can't do that. people won't buy more than 10 books a year (and those are the hardcore fans). they will have their hands full doing tie-in EU-material with the new film(s). if they want to start the EU new they better have a 25+ year-plan.
  8. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Knew that, but yeah completely agree.
  9. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Why can't they?

    I don't think they'll release hundreds of books at once. It will be a slow burn, probably 1 or 2 a year that tie in with the new trilogy and then the other movies they make and which fill in the backstory and cover the time between RotJ and Episode VII but in a way that works with what they are doing with Episode VII.

    They did say they want a new Star Wars movie every 2-3 years. Most people don't think that will stop with Episode IX. They will want to grow the brand and keep producing new material (movies, tv shows, books, comics etc....). Sticking to 20-30 years worth of books and EU material really limits what they can do creatively, takes away a big money making oppertunity (publishing new material) and makes it harder for new fans/readers to jump on. What they want is someone who has never read a Star Wars novel before to go see Episode VII and like it so much that they go and buy a Star Wars novel. Now if that novel doesn't really fit with whats on screen, requires the reader to go to a website and find out all the retcons, and is 1 of 20 or 30 novels you need to read to get the whole story, its much less inviting for new fans.
    Last edited by fenton, Nov 20, 2012
  10. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I could see them rereleasing major books in the series with new covers. Thrawn Trilogy, Hand of Thrawn, Rogue Squadron, Jedi Academy, I Jedi... Let a new generation read them. Let casual readers see the Thrawn trilogy on the new releases pavillion at Barnes and Noble :D
  11. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Enemy 11: Cold War with other Government, Fighting proxy wars on planets and systems between the two governments.
    Enemy 12: Terrorists... Enemy with a Jihadi view. Willing to die to eliminate the enemy
  12. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    But its likely that Episode VII won't keep things the same. If Han and Leia only have 1 son, not twins, do you change the Thrawn Trilogy? If Luke isn't married in Episode VII do you edit the Hand of Thrawn to remove any romantic links between Luke and Mara? If Luke's Jedi are located on Corusant or another planet, do you change Jedi Academy? etc...
  13. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    But they will be because they want to sell the books. Sorry if I don't respond fenton. You and I will never agree needless to say, I've ignored you and I have no problem telling anyone that.
  14. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Luke was 19 in ANH - which is when the Battle of Yavin (which became year zero in the new Galactic dating system; hence ABY and BBY, for After and Before) took place. Add 20 to the 30 year RL time gap and what do you get?

    Luke saved a planet/moon from destruction (Yavin 4, if memory serves) and saved a Princess - that turned out to be his sister - from eventually being executed. If Luke is going to be in Episode 7, then his life "leading up to the movie" has definitely not been "normal" - moviegoers that have never seen the OT or read any of the books will be expected to "jump on" regardless. That's the nature of any sequel. Incidentally, none of the characters have ever killed their brother - except Palpatine, who killed his entire family!

    Maybe, maybe not. Mark Hamill is reportedly on record as being happy that Luke married a woman named Mara and had a son they named Ben. Han and Leia were obviously intended to marry after RotJ, and married people usually have children. Sometimes they marry because they either have children already - or one or more is/are on the way

    The continuity may be long, but it isn't as complicated as all that - the Holocron has kept things organised, it's why it was set up in the first place. From 45/50 ABY there is a large gap that a ten to twenty year period of Sequel Trilogy can easily be slotted into - there's no question of having to fit the movies around the continuity.
  15. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    How? There will still be copies of the old titles out there, even if they're being sold second-hand or at car-boot or garage sales. Are they going to send people to break down peoples' doors and demand the copies back? That could be more than a little dangerous, particularly in some parts of the US - the would-be collectors might get shot!
  16. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    But there is what 4 years between ANH and RotJ? In read life there was 6 years. So 32 years I guess? I don't get why you are adding 20 years to the 30 year real life gap. There is a 6 year (or so) gap between Lukes age and Hamills age, so even taking that into account doesn't put you at the 40-50 year point. I'm not saying it has to be 30 years after, I'm just asking why is HAS to be 40-50 years when that math doesn't really add up.

    But LUke did those things on screen. What you are suggesting would be to start ANH with a Luke who already did those things, reference them but never show them. Thats the point people are making. NOt that the characters wouldn't do anything, but that you can't have a charater with THAT MUCH drama behind them and informing their character. The charaters have to be "fresh starts" for the audience to jump on and latch onto.

    Hamill can like it. Is he writting the script? Is he involved in the creative meetings Kennedy, Lucas and Arndt are having? What if he likes a/the new direction better? I think most people expect Han and Leia to be together, but will they have 3 children (2 of which being twins?). Lucas might want them to just have 1 child and thats it. The point is the EU shouldn't be used as the measure of expectations because its not what the creative people are going to use when creating the movie.

    The coninuity is absolutly complicated (try to explain everything Luke, Han nd Leia have done since RotJ to someone who hasnt' read any of the books) and if they have to retcon things like characters being born or dying, it will just get even more so. And demanding that your fans go to a website in order to keep everything straight isn't realistic. Its now how you grow something, its how you exclude everything but the super hard core.
  17. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    YOu kind of went in two ways there.

    How do you get the fans to get the right book? They could put a big stamp on it and identifies it as an Episode VII tie in. Obviously they'd depend somewhat on the staff at book stores to help. If Disney is publishing at that point, the change in publisher might/would tip some people off, and del Ray may not be able to continue printing their stuff (I dunno all the ins and outs) so that point there might be a lot less of the old stuff on the sheelves. Disney could also just put advertising material out there making sure people know that book title X is the one they want.

    Obvsiouly you can't stop the material from existing or people form ever getting their hands on it. But I don't think they have too. They just have to get the message out there "This book/series is what ties into the movies".
  18. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I don't understand why people hate the EU. If they are worried about jumping points. How is this for plot...
    Ben. Son of Luke Skywalker and Late Mara Jade (She gets referenced. I know her not being in it sucks, but at least she is official G Canon)
    Young Jedi Knight

    Jaina Daughter of Han and Leia
    Experienced Jedi around her father's age during the OT.
    No one needs to know her convoluted back story beyond, she is an experienced Jedi

    Jag Son of Imperial Pilot (Could even return to being a bounty hunter)
  19. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    19 (Luke' age at Yavin @ 0 ABY) + 30 years elapsed = 49 ABY - or it did when I last went to school. The math certainly adds up, at least on all my calculators.

    Are you trying to say that absolutely nothing has happened between RotJ and Ep 7? In nearly 30 years? That gap will have to be explained to the audience, won't it - and if they don't follow the existing continuity, anything that happened in that period will have to be referenced, but not shown (the entire film isn't long enough to do that!).
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Nov 20, 2012
  20. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    Well clearly the arguement follows that since we don't see Vader before ANH, he didn't do anything prior. I mean we didn't just get an entire trilogy filling out his back story...
  21. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Your'e not meant to identify with Vader.
    I don't hate the EU, but I'm realistic about it not being used as a basis for the movies (if Kennedy had talked about Episode VII following the books, this woul dbe a different conversation) and when making someone to appeal to to widest audience possible, a fresh start is what you want.

    If you are going to ignore Jaina's back story whats the point in using her? If you are going to ignore everything that came before, you aren't using that character. And you're still in the position of people wanting to SEE Luke fall in love etc... just be told about it. Its the difference between Episode VII and an EU movie. They aren't making an EU movie.
  22. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    We didn't see Bail Organa fall in love and marry either (or Shmi and Cliegg). We were just told that it had happened - does that mean that TPM, AotC and RotS are EU movies in your POV?
  23. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    But the battle of Yavin is the starting point so you don't add 19 to it to get to 49 years after the battle of yavin. If you're arguing 49 is too young for the charater thats an argument (though not what I was responding too).

    I said in the part that you quoted that "NOt that the characters wouldn't do anything" so no, that isn't what I'm saying. I hope thats clear now.

    The point is you don't have Luke meet someone, fall in love, get married, have a child, and kill his wife all off screen because people will want to SEE those events. You don't have Obi-wan give Luke his Lightsaber and tell him about his father when he is 13 years old and start ANH with Obi-wan showing up and saying "get your father's lightsaber I gave you years ago. We have to go save your twin sister that I told you about my ex-student vader has her captive". A good story and a good movie has the audience experience all those events along with Luke, not have them all quickly mentioned as backstory.

    While I total expect Episode VII to make references to things the characters have done (this war, forming a government, forming a Jedi order etc...) having HUGE character defining moments like that happen off screen and only mention them in passing isn't how you tell a good story. It would be great in an EU movie, but they are making a follow up to RotJ.
  24. Kyris Cavisek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    YOU ACTUALLY THINK I AM SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE THAT PADME WAS ELECTED QUEEN AT 14? I DIDN"T SEE THAT, IT COULDN"T HAVE HAPPENED!
  25. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    ARe you really saying you don't see the difference between the main character of the series and some characters who maybe get 15 minutes COMBINED screen time in 6 movies?
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