Speculation Why the NJO and Legacy Era are toast.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by stellarmagic01, Nov 5, 2012.

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Do you think the NJO and Legacy are going to Survive Episode VII?

Yes 59 vote(s) 27.6%
No 154 vote(s) 72.0%
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  1. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Apocalypse also went out of its way to seperate the Jedi from Coruscant, and to have an open storyline with various directions it could go thereafter. It could dive back into the EU, or it could go on it's own tangent involving a new threat. It could cameo Sith for the sake of it, it could have the Tribe spend the ST hiding on Kesh and the One Sith hiding on Korriban. Nice and wide.

    The PT didn't do a great deal of damage because authors purposely didn't pin it down. It was nebulous and vague and so it didn't hurt to have it changed somewhat.
  2. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Oh man, there is going to be so much anger and resentment when the Inevitable Happens in the very near future!

    "So, Harrison Ford, we don't want your input on Han Solo. Why? Because it violates SW Canon. We have to do what's been written. Sure, you can interpret the text through your performance (just be careful not to violate established EU Canon!) but actual contributions? Nuh-uh, sorry, Aaron Allston wrote it and so it must be!"

    "A-list Hollywood Super Director, excited about making the most eagerly awaited film in cinema history? Well, don't get too excited. See, there's this thing called "EU Canon" and you have to abide by it. As long as you don't change anything from these 150 books and thousands of comics, you can do whatever you want!"

    "Ah, our A-List screenwriter who has won several Academy Awards! Welcome. But just so you know, don't exercise your imagination too much, there's this thing called "The EU Canon" and you can't violate any of it - you'd alienate a few thousand fans who don't support most of what we do but hey they're really important!"

    These scenarios are Not Going To Happen.

    It's over kids. The series might go on as its own alternate continuity, but this is the real, official continuation. Do you really want all of these talented people pulling punches so they don't violate some old tie-in fiction? Do you want this movie to fail? I fully expect them to use EU as a Roman Quarry, heck, the EU up to Episode III is still mostly usable, but anything post RotJ?? Brace yourself, read the Bhagavad Gita, be prepared to practice some serious non-attachment...
    Last edited by The-Eternal-Hero, Nov 6, 2012
  3. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    That's because Lucas wouldn't let them, even way back in the day THSA and TLCA were being written, there were certain areas that the authors could not venture into, like dealing with Obi-wan and the Clone Wars.
  4. Moorplant Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2004
    I think a lot of that is because Lucas already knew he was going to do the PT in the early 90s when the Thrawn Trilogy etc really kicked off the EU as we know it. There was a ban on writing anything set during the Clone Wars to do with Luke and Leia's mother and other related areas. Otherwise, judging by reading through a lot of old pre TPM speculation, reaction to the PT, a lot of the fanfic in zines in the 80s-90s and several authors EU takes on the Jedi etc pre TPM, many books set then would have been drastically different to the arc of the story and character motivations he wanted to tell (regardless of details like dialogue etc). So if much had been written then he'd probably have swept quite a bit of it away.

    At this point none of us know for sure what Pablo H is actually doing. He's researching some stuff, probably as part of the prep for the ST but it's highly possible it's more like "hey this writer suggested a Sith planet or Jedi Academies, do we have some of those already?" or writing a not too unwieldy summary of the characters and what's happened incase it sparks some ideas in people who don't know the details. Rather than create a detailed timeline of absolutely everything that's happened so they can figure out how to slot new movies in the gaps and keep 99.99% intact.

    Im sure we'll get some concepts brought over, some names of places and characters and maybe some broadly familiar plots and it will probably leave some gaps where you can insert a couple of cloned Emperor or Thrawn flavored shenanigans if you want to. But I don't think it's going to be Jaina referencing how her twin brother went to the dark side and she killed him and "oh yeah Vong invasion" that happened off screen in the last 35 years.

    Ah thank you for saying this. So many people say they love that it's always been a single continuity, but it's only ever considered that because it's all been reconned into infinity and people prefer some of the thinnest of explanations to actually declaring it's obsolete canon now. And if the books/Video Games/Aminated series have to do it so much, then it's going to be nothing compared to a whole slew of planned new movies if they take place anywhere within 100 years of ROTJ.
    The-Eternal-Hero likes this.
  5. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Reality will slowly set in. Give it time.

    As Episode VII will bring SW to a whole new generation of fans, it will also create an endless source of sour grapes for the previous one. Here we go. What the PT was for OT fans, the ST will be for EU fans. I just heard the sound of millions of voices complaining for decades over something that was going to happen anyway...
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  6. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Writing a movie that stars Jaina and have her reference killing her brother who became a Sith is not how you make a successful movie. The new movies will have original stories with original characters.

    Not being attached and/or married to her in the first place would have prevented his fall as well.

    In shows like that the mystery is the point, and you know the answer is coming. Having your main character (Jaina) reference a twin brother who becam ea Sith and she had to go kill, but you'll never see that you need to buy a 9 noval series to get that story is bad story telling.
  7. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    All he says is what I said, the EU is part of the "treasure trove" he is handing over. There is NOTHING in there about them consulting the EU, using the story ideas or characters.

    The closest thing he said is they have "infinate" inspiration. Lucas then say he and Kennedy are working on and developing ideas.
    Last edited by fenton, Nov 6, 2012
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  8. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I don't get why people get defensive about the EU.

    People should be excited about new stories (espically movies) not worried about those movies making some books "not real" (cause NONE OF IT IS REAL). Espically because, its going to happen. We ARE getting Episode VII, and its unlikely that it will follow the EU, use the EU storylines or the EU characters. So you can claim that Episode VII is "not real" or embrase the change that is coming.
  9. Moorplant Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2004
    It's true that it often doesn't matter. As we all know, ANH begins in media res in GL's mind even before adding Ep VI to the title and it hinted at the Clone Wars, the rise of the Empire and the Jedi without getting too bogged down and it works, nor do we have a clue to who L&Ls own mother is in the OT.

    That said slotting it after Post ROTJ EU with hints and the mysteries of the convoluted dozens of tragedies, invasions, civil wars, everyone and their grandchilden's turn to the dark side and back and to the dark side again and being bound by that but not having showed it is potentially very confusing story telling. And assuming that the opening crawl would then mention that the "GFFA has been in a state of chaos 90% of the time since ROTJ but everyone finally thought it was a time of peace again for a couple of years until now....." etc then people are going to need some explanation of what's befallen their beloved characters since the Emperor bought it. At which point Vong invasion? Darth Cadeus? His twin killed him WTF?

    I just don't think they're going to want to have that albatross around their necks in what is not planned as just Ep VII-IX but maybe another trilogy beyond that and/or stand-a-lone movies.

    And gods help us if they use the names of some of the characters like Mara, Ben or Jacen/Jaina, or places like the Yavin Academy or Korriban etc, but change everything else about their lives and storylines. The arguing would get worse than if they had completely AU'd everything.

    I also wouldn't entirely discount LFL trying to retcon a lot of it even if it does tear up at least 70% of the EU as it currently stands. [face_hypnotized]
    Last edited by Moorplant, Nov 6, 2012
  10. Jobertus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Since you're such a guru when it comes to making successful movies, fenton, I think you should submit your resume to Lucasfilm then we're sure to have a great ST.

    They don't even have to reference Jacen or Caedus if they use EU characters. Even if they were to have Jaina or Ben in the ST (and I never said that was or wasn't a lock, because I'm not in the know) that doesn't mean an all new original story can't feature (or be crafted) with them in it. They're perfectly aged to put them in as the new protagonists of the ST. All I've heard is that the ST will be an all new original story, which doesn't mean no original characters, nor does it say anything about not using characters developed in the EU either.
  11. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    There will be tears before bedtime...

    They bring in a first-rate successful director. He has this in his mind:

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    And they tell him, "Whoah! Slow down there Mr. You need to take a look at these moldy old paperbacks!"

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    I somehow doubt this is going to happen.
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  12. Lord Nikon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    Sigh.

    Okay a couple of things.

    A. The Director. Does not write the film. A screenwriter does. Education...it's a wonderful thing.

    B. The biggest successes in the film industry with franchise properties in the last ten years have been HARRY POTTER (based on, but not identical to....a book series), TWILIGHT (based on, but not identical to....a book series), THE HUNGER GAMES (based on but not identical to....a book series)...and the best example....AVENGERS (based on but not identical to...and cherry picked for the best ideas....a comic book series that's been running on and off since the 1960's)....moldy old...riiiiiight....they never look at that stuff.

    It's funny how even though AVENGERS was super-ridiculously-successful they still managed to pay attention to the source material and do it justice, maintaining names and even motivations from the comics....

    Care to tell me again how that's "not going to happen"

    Come on guys, it's not rocket science.

    1. Disney bought Marvel, brought in great creative talent and let them plumb the source material to make a great film, and made AVENGERS.
    2. AVENGERS makes a gajillion dollars and pays decent homage to all the characters source material.
    3. Disney looks around to see what else they can buy (this would have been in mid-late June)
    4. Lucasfilm! Starts process with GL to buy it.
    5. Hey, they have all these EU characters and motivations that we can source from to make the next trilogy about Luke and Leia's kids. Hmmm....teens as heroes.... (*cough*Hunger Games, Harry Potter*cough*)
    6. Oh hey, what's this here? A license to print money? Well don't mind if we do.
    Last edited by Lord Nikon, Nov 6, 2012
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  13. Blazer-Smith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2004
    star 2
    Could
    Couldn't agree with you more. Go the Star Trek route ala JJ and trash all of it. It's still cool to read the books, only call them "fan fiction" or alternate timeline or whatever. The general public has to understand this or it will narrow the appeal. The prequels were a mess because everyone knew where the story would end up. Take away the restraints and this puppy will be good!
  14. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    A Trek-style down-when reboot/timejump is one thing; we've already had that with the PT, and they took care (or got lucky) with the casting of younger Obi-Wan and younger Palpatine - just as the rebooted Trek has taken care with casting the Kirk and Spock actors; people who could conceivably look like Season 1's Shatner and Nimoy in a few years time.

    Star Wars is different from Trek since all six films keep getting rebroadcast/re-released. Shatner/Nimoy era Trek episodes/films (as far as I have seen) rarely do - NextGen films seem the Trek rebroadcasts of choice - at least as far as the channels that I can access are concerned.

    Setting the ST to begin just after Endor would need a complete recast - and that, my dear EU-bashers, would risk hacking off not only swathes of the EU readership, but probably parts of the OT fandom as well. Star Wars is an iconic brand. Luke Leia and Han (as portrayed by Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford) are instantly recognisable icons too.

    A twenty-year up-when timejump (starting at around "Hand of Thrawn" duology or the start of the Yuuzhan Vong War) presents similar, but not insurmountable, casting problems - actors that look like twenty-year-older versions of Mark, Carrie and Harrison will have to be found. Twenty year gaps between trilogies was apparently the original plan, but will the original plan have been superseded, and by how much?

    A forty-five to fifty year up-when timejump would allow Mark, Carrie and/or Harrison to reprise their roles (even if only in cameo) to link the trilogies. It also avoids clashing with most of the EU's timeline (the "Legacy" comics possibly excepted).

    As @Sinrebirth said up-thread, Apocalypse left things open - but the TCW plotline of Mortis (apparently one of GL's own ideas) was directly referenced; and almost as an afterthought - or so it seemed. Allegedly, Mortis has been indirectly referenced in the "Darth Plagueis" novel and in a sourcebook. A bit much exposure over too short a time to be entirely coincidental, IMHO.
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Nov 6, 2012
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  15. Moorplant Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2004
    Hah, I know I would make **** movies, I'm not even speculating on what they should do or when they should set it, but my points still stand.

    I'm sure there will be some OT characters, some brand new characters and probably some EU characters. And yes as I said I don't actually have a problem if they use Ben or Mara or any other names, concepts or some of the character arcs from the EU. It's so large that there's bound to be some similarities anyway, just as much as they are bound to smash quite a bit of it.

    You can have a character named Jaina on screen and never mention that she had two brothers and one went to the dark side etc, that's a big possibility. But allowing people to pick and chose to ignore the EU if they want or not is going to be harder given that people will want to know what happened to our beloved Big 3 in the intervening 30-50 years (assuming they're coming back and alive).

    So you either get "the galaxy has been at peace since the Empire surrendered, everyone raised kids or not and this is the 1st big new threat" type crawl or as I said you get a vague "tragedy on tragedy and conflict has engulfed the galaxy since the end of ROTJ, the latest threat is.......". If the former happens that contradicts the EU anyway even if it doesn't outright say some of the events didn't happen and if its the latter then it will cry out for more explanation of what is a huge convoluted series of events at this point. You can't sumerize it in the crawl and giving it some throwaway lines stands a high chance of "why did you skip over a galaxy invasion movie then?"
    Last edited by Moorplant, Nov 6, 2012
  16. Lord Nikon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    I think the assumption that the ENTIRE EU has to be recognized in a crawl is ludicrous and impossible. Who's to say that you can have the turmoil that happened in the New Republic and not go the route of the war with the Vong or even Jacen's falls in the movies? Split the timeline. I don't think anyone saying that the EU should be a source is saying that everything should be included from there...but characters and long arcs could be recognized and appease everyone. The crawl could mention new turmoil after a period of division in the Republic that followed the Empire's fall, and that a new generation would have to combat it...I doubt anyone is thinking that the YV war, AND the Kilik crisis, And the new Galactic Civil War, AND Jacen's fall and all that ought to be skipped but then referenced in some way....no, we are saying that you ditch the parts that don't work and keep the parts that do and clean up the timeline for the film versions.
  17. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    The director will contribute to the story, change things, add things, decide what gets in the final cut etc.

    Big difference between Avengers & SW. The Marvel heroes were taken from the source material. For the next SW director, the previous 6 films are the source material. The EU is a box of possibilities. No director in their right mind would want to import that incomprehensibly complicated 20 year soap opera into their shiny new SW movie. The tone of the Del Rey EU is overwhelmingly dark, tragic, and depressing. The characters have no single author or even single editor. There's nothing to focus on, the fanbase is too small to cater to, and the tone is all wrong for a new SW movie. If we see anything, it will along the lines of the PT and TCW, I'd wager. And Avengers wasn't 100% faithful because there is nothing to be 100% faithful to, there have been many writers and artists. They amalgamated the best cinematic aspects of the characters with a non-existent story and codged together a 2 hour sugar-rush thrill ride. SW is different. The writers & director will have to make something cohesive and easy to grasp.

    Man, this is not going to pretty...
  18. Lord Nikon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    I know folk in the film industry currently. That is SO not how it works unless you are someone with SERIOUS clout. Let's lay that out....the PRODUCER has final decision in what's in the final cut or not if its contested....the director has much less say than you think....it's why so many directors have directors cuts, because they are unhappy with what they were forced to release. They also RARELY contribute to story unless they are a screenwriter themselves on the project...that's the fastest way to get a writer pissed off with you.

    Again, stop saying "Director" since you clearly misunderstand their role in film production. If you wish to talk about content, screenwriter...or at the very least producer....they pay for the damned thing after all, they have final say.

    And again, no one is saying "use the entire EU as a bible" They are saying use it as a guide for characters and even motivations...which is what AVENGERS did.

    You fail to give the audience any credit. I'm wagering they are much smarter than you give them credit for.

    Think on this. Jaina is a main character of Ep VII. She's a strong female lead, and is arguably the best character in the EU. The screenwriter ( <---see how that works?) pulls her from the EU continuity and reformats her a bit to fit her into a live action filmic image of a hero. She's still han and Leia's kid, she's still out to become a Jedi, and she's a perfect character to bring the new audience in with. Does she need her relationship with Jag....nah, not really...does she need her brother to go bad? Nah, not really. Would she then still be recognizable to the EU fans and not lose a general audience? You betcha. Could she still be a stellar pilot and eventually become a valued member of Rogue Squadron in suped up X-Wing XJ3's? Absolutely as this connects to not only her dad, but Anakin's and Luke's piloting prowess as well. <-----all this would easily appease EU fans and entertain the GA as well.

    The above is what I'm talking about and see them doing. Taking ready-made, excellent characters from the EU and even some of their motivations and inserting them into a new film. It's so win-win that it's not even funny.

    No one in this thread has said that the ST should be the entirety of the EU and everything that happened in it has to happen it it. That's silly and unrealistic. But an homage is a good way to go for both a new audience and an existing EU fanbase.
  19. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    The only thing from the crawl you need, to sum up all the post-ROTJ EU. is.... "the heroes of the Rebellion have founded the GALACTIC ALLIANCE" and "Luke Skywalker has founded a NEW JEDI ORDER." And maybe say that the Empire is no longer a threat, but the galaxy is still not at peace... cue the threat of the ST.

    Perhaps they can even have Wynn Dorvan, the current leader of the GA, rename it back to the "New Republic" and rename his position "Supreme Chancellor" again, in the EU lead-up to Episode VII, if that's what the ST wants to do. And then he can, IU, lose the next election to whoever will be the leader in the ST.

    Nothing else in the EU needs to be "referenced"... and it can still ALL be kept, even using Jaina and Ben as the main characters.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Nov 6, 2012
  20. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    Oh, look at what is on the cover of Star By Star, AND Vector Prime, BTW. New York Times Best Seller. Those words have appeared on Star Wars novels 38 times. Yeah, they're really mouldy paperbacks. Those words have great resonance for the public, and will resonate with who ever winds up directing the ST. As I've said in previous posts, I'm not say that we'll get direct adaptations of EU material, but whoever winds up directing the ST will undoubtedly be aware of the fact that the films have been spun off into a long running series of novels that have been highly successful in their own right.
    Last edited by Chancellor_Ewok, Nov 6, 2012
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  21. EviL_eLF Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2003
    star 4
    I just think it's absurd to jump the gun and assume all EU will be trashed when there has been zero indication of that happening, and history shows exactly otherwise.

    I expect minor issues only.
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  22. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    The EU isn't going to be discarded wholesale by these new movies, but, by the same token, it isn't going to 'handcuff' the storytelling of said movies.
  23. Lord Nikon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    ^^Agree. Totally.
  24. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    I agree. The EU and the films dovetail nicely most of the time, but some people ARE jumping the gun. The fact that we are having this discussion is proof of that. Some people are asumming that TPTB don't care about the EU and are only interested in the films. I don't think that's the case. When I say that, I recognize that not everybody reads the Expanded Universe, and that's fine, but from a business/marketing stand point, I don't think that Disney or Lucasfilm are going to touch the novels, because they make money and because in the collective mind of the public, the fact they've been on the NYT Best Seller so many times, says that Lucasfilm is putting out a quality a product, and why mess with that if you don't have to.
    Last edited by Chancellor_Ewok, Nov 6, 2012
  25. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    The denial runs deep.

    Yeah, the director doesn't have control over the film... If they get an A-list director they will want his/her input, and a strong hand in creating a film that will be successful, not some seat-filler who will know-tow to the Continuity Department.

    Yes, the SW novels have had a decent following a few times. But it is pure fantasy to think that the new director will either hunker down to study that mountain of pulp fiction or constantly be buzzing Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo as to what to put in their movie.

    I'm clearly not getting through:

    You have just been given the reigns to direct the single most desired film in the history of cinema. And...you don't put your personal stamp on it? This is not a reasonable expectation. Even Kersh and Marquand put their stamps on ESB & RotJ, and Dave Filoni has put his stamp on TCW as supervising director.

    SW is not known for the EU. The EU has a following, and I'm in that group, but SW, especially for a filmmaker, is cinema, not literature. Yes, it would nice if they name dropped Ulic Quel Droma and used Tython and Korriban etc. But they probably will not, at least not strictly following the precise details of the EU. There is no compelling reason to pick up where a half dozen minor genre writers and a group of book editors left off. This does not make good press. Episode VII will have massive global attention paid to it, millions upon millions of people will be watching. How a SW tie-in fared in 1999 is irrelevant to the task at hand.

    A bestselling book sells in the thousands. A $250 million movie needs to reach a much bigger audience.

    Things like Harry Potter don't count here because the movies were made only because the books were so successful. The SW books sell because the movies are successful. It is a very bad business model to look at the massive audience for the SW movies, and the much smaller audience for the spin-off books, and decide to base the most eagerly anticipated film of all time on the books.

    On top of that, even EU fans have been groaning about the direction of the books, and the books have made plenty of poor decisions.

    Its not that I don't share your hopes or fears. I don't want to lose Tales of the Jedi or Legacy, and I love Dark Empire & the Zahn series. But we need to be realistic here. Will they pillage the EU for ideas? Surely. But is it reasonable to expect a whole new creative team, given the greatest toy box in the world, to hang back and let a pile of old spin-off books determine their all important first move? I don't think so.

    This will be a fresh slate. Everyone involved will want to put their fingers in the pie, especially the writers and director.
    Last edited by The-Eternal-Hero, Nov 6, 2012
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