Speculation Why the NJO and Legacy Era are toast.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by stellarmagic01, Nov 5, 2012.

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Do you think the NJO and Legacy are going to Survive Episode VII?

Yes 59 vote(s) 27.6%
No 154 vote(s) 72.0%
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  1. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah but what if they want to cover Luke, Han, Leia etc. the future of the Jedi, the shape of the Second Republic etc? They probably will do this. They will want Chewie back. You can't "avoid" 20 years of accumulated backstory.

    I agree with what you're saying but there are only a few logical solutions:

    1. End the post RotJ EU continuity, which they can do with honor, and keep it as a stand alone prose epic.

    2. Retcon the life out of it to fit a movie that will not resemble it in any detail.

    3. Let it continue as "Alternate Continuity".

    I say #1 is the best solution. Everything after RotS (EU) needs to be gently moved over into the "what if" column to make room for what's to come. It was fun while it lasted but...it's going to be much more fun in the near future!
  2. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    How did 20 years of backstory accumulate? It was because there weren't any new films and GL said that there would not be any new films.

    Chewie could be brought back by retcon - they did it with Maul and Boba; and, as with them, no one saw his dead body! All that's needed is a reasonable explanation.

    1. It's the "NEW Republic".

    2. Cover Luke, Han and Leia etc. That will probably have to wait for CGI or animations - otherwise they'll be needing lookalike impersonators that can really act - or risk hacking-off a major part of the fanbase. Everyone knows what Luke, Han and Leia look (and sound) like.

    3. Cover the future of the Jedi and the shape of the New Republic. Again, no real problem with CGI, animation or brining in new and unknown characters that don't have to interact much with known faces (although skillful intercutting can make even that possible - DS-9's Sisko on the original Enterprise, for example); but it will always have the problem that movies cannot compete with a well-written book - there's just no way to pack all the story in before the audience starts getting numb backsides. Look at some of the marathon adaptations of original novels that there have been in the past! Anything over two-and-a-half hours is way too long! And cutting chunks out of the storyline to make it fit will just result in the comment "The EU author (Zahn, Stackpole or Allston - insert one) did it better"!
  3. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Until they do it again.

    And again.

    And again.

    And all of sudden it looks like DC or Marvel or Sonic or or Star Trek or Transformers and it doesn't have any staying power. Most people will see a film, think that's cool, look beneath it for attached material, and go, holy hell what the frell is all of this and these multiple continuities I can't be bothered to follow this I'll stick with the films kthnx bye!

    One continuity is neater, nicer, and doesn't hurt anyone. You can respectfully tell stories seperate from the 'heavy continuity' if you want to. Allston, Zahn, Stover and so on have done so for years. Some people weave the continuity to create something else, like Luceno, Denning, Pena or Wallace, and that works for them too.
  4. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Don't forget Kemp's Crosscurrent and Riptide; Sinre. A small cast of unknowns or virtual unknowns - yet the books worked!
  5. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I purposely didn't write "New Republic" because we don't know what they'll decide to call it. I actually prefer Second Republic. They might choose something else.

    What's wrong with Mark, Ford and Carrie playing their characters at the age they are now?

    They will almost certainly simply make a sequel to RotJ and ignore 99% of that EU continuity.
    Last edited by The-Eternal-Hero, Nov 7, 2012
  6. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    I think if given a choice, even authors who worked on the old EU, would prefer to work in a new post-RotJ EU rather than work under a ban not to touch Luke, Leia and Han.
  7. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    What do you think you're reading when you pick up the Odyssey, or a contemporary Sherlock Holmes story, or a recent James Bond novel? This inevitably happens with beloved characters. Since SW is primarily a cinematic story (including tv) it's not as big a deal. The EU can mutate as much as it has to. I don't imagine in 25 years that they'll just shrug and say, "No more stories in this certain era, there's already too much!" Certain hotspots (IV-VII especially) will get regular "realignments" as they did with the Marvel comics & dailies.
  8. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    But the poster saying he is dead is working from the movie canon, while the poster saying he is alive its established, is working from C-Level canon. There isn't really a problem, they've told us, if there is a contridiction, the movies and tv show trump everything else.

    The simple solution is for the filmmakers to maket he film they want to make (and it appears they using Lucas's outlines as a starting point) and for the fans to accept that if a film does something differently then a novel, its no big deal. The film is "the truth" and hte novel is a story set in the universe that you enjoyed. If Star Trek fans can figure that out and be ok with it, why can't Star Wars fans?
  9. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Are you really saying that DC comics, Marvel comics, Star Trek and Transformers don't have staying power as franchises?

    Disney has its own publishing divsion which will most likely take over publishing Star Wars novels and Marvel comics will probably start publishing the comics etc... If people being confused is a problem, you'll see them just not print stuff from the "old" contunity. And having a new, cleaner contunuity that doesn't contridict the films would be more welcoming to new readers (the comic companies get this, which is why they make things like the Ultimate Universe and The New 52).
  10. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    If you really want to get technical, thats what it is.

    The defination of G-Level canon includes - the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public).

    LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one

    (all info from wookiepedia).
  11. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Just a couple other quotes from Wookiepedia

    CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example).

    So Lucas isn't bound by the EU (accounting to the guy who maintains the continuitiy). They've said that Lucas and Kennedy have/are working together on ideas for VII, VIII and IX. Kennedy said she wants Lucas to be the angel on her shoulder. Lucas said he handed over his outlines for the new movies to her etc.... While someone else will write VII, it appears it will be based on Lucas's work/notes/ideas (maybe VIII and IX as well), which isn't bound by the EU

    LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

    So we know there will be more features because Disney needs to make its money back. Lucas wanted to tell Anakin's story and he did. But if they working off his notes and his outlines for the next 3, he doesn't see or consider things like Luke getting married or the Emperor getting cloned.
  12. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Absolutely nothing at all - that's actually what I'm hoping they'll do. For a start, it would link the OT and the ST perfectly if any of them (best case, all three) were in it.

    Ignoring (as opposed to trashing) 99% of the EU continuity is also fine - there's always the 'retcon' solution to explain differences.
  13. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    "The definition of G-Level canon includes - the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public)."

    Well it started out that way but after RotS Lucas took an increasing interest in the EU and decided to try and synthesize it all through the Holocron Whatsit project. This was all GL. But he never could make up his mind what he was doing. I don't blame long-term fans for being frustrated.

    But the beauty of the new situation is this: the chaos really only extends from The Force Unleashed to the Disney/LFL merger. That's not too bad. Kathy can resolve this conflict by simply waving her pen and changing Leland Chee's job to simply cataloging the SWU and taking away his power to place stories in continuity. If she's not quite hip to all this, she will be very soon, and will have to make a decision, since it impacts marketing and development of future projects.

    It depends on the new movie. If they bypass Luke & the others, or have them show up with no back-story, for cameo-type appearances, then the EU can stand. However, if they mount a sequel to RotJ, and pass the torch to another generation, the post RotJ EU will have to dealt with.

    I agree with the idea of bringing it to a close, let it have a solid ending, and then start over. Just add a short introduction to the old books:

    "In 1992 Lucasfilm initiated an ambitious project to continue the Star Wars Saga in the form of comics, novels, games and other media tie-ins, to meet the demand for new stories about Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and Princess Leia. For twenty years talented writers, artists and editors added to this massive, collaborative epic. But in 2012 George Lucas decided to allow new Star Wars movies, based on the original characters, to be made. Since the story presented in these films did not connect with the story started in 1992, it was decided to bring that saga to a close, and to allow a new generation of creative artists to continue the Skywalker saga, based on the story told in the new films. Lucasfilm acknowledges the creative contributions of everyone involved with the Original Expanded Universe (OEU) and continues to make these classic stories available for new fans to discover."

    Pretty simple.
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  14. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    If they mount a sequel to RotJ, using the original cast then they will have to set it at about RotJ + 30 (at least) to explain Luke's, Leia's and Han's ageing. That means some explanation of what has happened meanwhile (visitors on a tour through the Jedi museum, perhaps?), some idea about the Order - Luke can't have done everything himself(!) and what the Galaxy is like. Just no getting away from that - although it can be kept to general terms ("don't mention the Vong!", as Fawlty Towers would put it).

    Trying to re-cast would probably be very problematical - as previously stated.

    RotJ + 30+ would also be a perfect time to pass the torch (or maybe a little too early, if Dooku is any example of a much-older Force-user). Who would even be thinking of "passing the torch" at anything under 50-60 , even on this planet? And "the next generation" would have had to have been born, trained and to have become mature enough to be trusted with the torch! Candidates should be in the age range of 25 to 30 and have good Force, Lightsaber and interpersonal skills. Proven ability to redeem Sith Lords an advantage.
    Last edited by Tim Battershell, Nov 7, 2012
  15. Corran1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 1
    I've been following the EU since the mid-90s. I have read just about everything, and in fact it is the EU that really made me such an adamant Star Wars fan. That being said, I really have been disappointed by everything post NJO. I am one who really enjoyed the NJO. I liked the dark tone as something different for Star Wars, and the Vong plot was a good break from the Jedi vs. Sith and superweapon plots. But then everything just got worse. The NJO built up the characters of the next generation so well, only to have most of them killed off, turn evil (Jacen), or just become useless and annoying (Tahiri).

    If getting rid of the NJO to current EU is what has to happen for all of these problems to be fixed, I'm all for it. In fact, even if all EU is wiped out, I would still be happy (as long as the movies are good of course). It would be nice to have a fresh start. This way we could possibly see a new Thrawn trilogy, one which utilizes the insights of the prequel trilogy to make a more consistent continuity. And perhaps the unfortunate idea used in the Truce at Bakura that Anakin and Obi Wan's ghosts would no longer appear could be done away with. I would love to see Anakin's ghost guide Luke in his attempt to rebuild the Jedi order. All of the beloved EU characters could then be reintroduced in this new continuity (Mara Jade, Thrawn, Corran Horn, Jacen, Jaina, etc.)

    Everything is so convoluted at this point anyway, I can't imagine being a new reader trying to figure out what the heck is going on in the post ROTJ books.

    Also, I would really like to have Dark Empire erased from continuity. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the series. But it really ruins Anakin's role as the chosen one.
  16. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    That kind of backstory can be told in the opening crawl, you can do it in 1-2 sentences. Once you get into LUke got married and had a kid who he named Ben, but you won't see his wife because she died in a novel in 2007 (or whenever), and Leia and Han had 3 children but 1 got killed in an invasion and the other was killed by his twin who is in this movie etc.... It becames really complicated really fast. Its why when they make a superhero movie they start with the origin. They couldn't have made Ironman 3 in 2008 even though almost all of hte story elements (that are int he trailer anyway) were it the comics, they had to introduce the movie audience to everything on their own terms, they couldn't just throw them in the deep in and expect them to get it.
  17. Corran1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 1
    One big issue that I find if they stick to EU continuity is the age of the protagonists. Think about it: Jaina is in her 30s, Ben is a teenager, and Allana is a child. The vast age difference doesn't really make for a new "big three." It would just be awkward. This is something that has really bothered me about the post NJO EU.
  18. The-Eternal-Hero Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    When I say "pass the torch" I mean in terms of new actors to make X-III. I'm sure they're thinking along the same lines, even if they pass over Luke & Co. "In world" of course it wouldn't have the be that way; in the real world of investing in an expensive series of films, it makes perfect sense. But those new characters had better be really interesting!
  19. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Jaden Korr is just into his 40's, the Horn children (and their surviving friends in the Unit) are roughly Jaina's age; but I'm not expecting the EU continuity to be followed strictly - we will probably see entirely different, and (so far) unknown, characters as the "next generation".
  20. Corran1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 1
    The post-NJO EU has basically ruined all of the characters who are Jaina's age, the Horn children included.
  21. Corran1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 1
    And it can't simply be unknown characters as the next generation while remaining faithful to EU continuity. This story has to include a Skywalker child.
  22. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    They were onlt temporarily ill, made a full recovery and worked well together in Apocalypse.

    Ben has a possible Jedi sidekick in Seha Dorvald - leaving the possible plotline of Vestara coming back into his life to complicate matters (love-triangles make good film drama). The Jedi/Reformed Sith dynamic could be interesting too, particularly as Vestara's people are a more reasonable brand of Sith!

    But I reiterate what I said above, it will probably be fresh, brand new, characters to take the story forward.
  23. Corran1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 1
    Please no sith in this film. The FOTJ sith were pretty pathetic in my opinion.
  24. stellarmagic01 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    You've got an excellent point with Jaina being 30 in the current EU novels... a 30 year old doesn't sound like someone to be handing the torch over to does it? A bit old for a coming of age tale, yeah?

    If they went with the current crop of EU characters and setting... Ben would be more likely the new torch bearer since he's a teenager. But I don't see them doing that either because you go from single Luke in Episode VI to a widower in VII. I do have a theory on how much of these things will ultimately work out beyond the infinities stamp for NJO and beyond. Looking at the canon system Lucasfilm uses, lets sit back and think a bit.

    G-canon - The movies, scripts, novelizations, radio plays, and statements by George Lucas himself. I would subdivided this into Greater G-canon (the films) and Lesser G-canon (novelizations and radio plays).
    T-canon - The Television series: Clone Wars and The Clone Wars... I would guess any new TV series produced by Disney would be this.
    C-canon - Expanded Universe books, comics, and games that do not contradict higher status canon. I expect this category to shrink as E:VII will cause some of it to be reclassified as S-canon or N-canon.
    S-canon - Secondary Canon - events are canon but not exactly as portrayed (such as Star Wars Galaxies quests and TOR missions).
    N-canon - non-canon, crossovers, and "What if?" stories.

    It sounds rather... duh, but many people are surprised at where some things fall. For example, Mara Jade is G-canon thanks to her appearance in the RoTJ radio play and I'd argue that thanks to the amount of influence and control Lucas had over the Thrawn Trilogy I'd class them as 'more canon' then C-canon but 'less canon' then G-canon, roughly on the same level as T-canon. So let me tell a tale of the Star Wars continuity based in part on statements made by Lucas, Zahn, and others over the years as to what is most likely our main universe. After RoTJ most of this is just my wild guess but eh...

    Episode I: The Phantom Menace (G-canon)
    ...10 years...
    Episode II: The Attack of the Clones (G-canon)
    The Clone Wars (T-canon)
    Episode III: Return of the Sith (G-canon)
    ...19 years...
    Episode IV: A New Hope (G-canon)
    Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back (G-canon)
    Episode VI: The Return of the Jedi (G-canon)
    ...5 years...
    Thrawn Trilogy ('High' C-canon)
    ...10-20 years...
    Episode VII
    Episode VIII
    Episode IX

    That's all I would bet on, everything else I'd just say 'Don't know'.
  25. Jango_Fett21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 3
    The non-canonical status of other franchises' tie-in media universes has absolutely no bearing on the perpetuation of said universes and the continuation and expansion of them, so this notion that de-canonizing the EU would discourage its perpetuation and expansion makes no sense to me.

    The only thing that would fundamentally change with regards to the Star Wars universe were the EU to be officially de-canonized would be the removal of the various levels of canon attached to the SW franchise and its licensed media tie-in universe. For many, many years now, the Star Wars tie-in media universe has been doing what the Star Trek tie-in media universe has only begun doing in the past several years, which is to allow writers to create new tales for the existing 5 canonical Star Trek television/film properties (Star Trek: The Original Series, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek Deep Space 9, Star Trek Voyager, and Star Trek: Enterprise) while also expanding the universe of Star Trek by creating new, original tales, with the only restrictions being that the alternate timeline created by the 2009 Star Trek movie is currently 'off-limits'. If the EU were to be decanonized, it would, as it currently is, remain subsidiary to what is currently 'G-Canon', but its non-canonical status would not prevent or preclude it from being perpetuated or expanded. Anything that currently exists as part of the EU that is contradicted by new canon - should new canon significantly disrupt said content - would simply be considered an 'elseworlds'-style tale, of which there are already several within both 'G-Canon' and the secondary EU-Canon.

    Were the EU to be de-canonized, I would consolidate current G-Canon and Television Canon together so as to create a single, cohesive canonical framework, and place the film and televisions novelizations firmly within the non-canonical EU category as is the case in other other franchises.
    Last edited by Jango_Fett21, Nov 7, 2012
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