Discussion Why the odds are "3720 to 1" you'll actually like EP7

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by phatdude1138, Nov 10, 2012.

  1. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    This is not entirely fair. TPM and AotC are genuine dissapointly movies. I would personally qualify TPM as an outright bad film, and AOTC as a soldily below average one when looking at them on their own merits. ROTS, on the other hand, takes a lot of flak that it does not entirely deserve for being associated with the other two films. It is certainly an above average science-fiction fantasy film and certainly capable of standing next to most of the 'good' blockbuster films of the past decade-plus. Episodes I and II traded very heavily on the Star Wars name and would have been much, much less successful without them, especially in the domestic box (the worldwide box office has a much greater tolerance for action-oriented science fiction than the US does, see exhibit A: Battleship).

    Still, the tyranny of expectations does matter. The OT is a set of modern masterpieces, living up to that is all but impossible. TPM would have suffered some backlash even if it had been a genuinely good film, but it would have been considerably less. We can see this in other reboot/adaptation scenarios. The better your product ultimately stands on its own, the less wailing their is from the fans. The Harry Potter series is actually a good example, the films are generally considered to have improved through their run, and carping about adaptation difficulties quieted down.

    How expectations will influence the ST is not yet clear, however. While the younger audience, less interested in storytelling and more interested in lightsaber battles and simply more tolerant of the PT in general, is probably burning with anticipation, much of the rest of the fanbase, and the wider public, are far less enthusiastic. The very biggest fans: the Star Wars fanatics who live and breath the whole universe, are largely side-tracked by the larger issue of the EU's uncertain status and will remain very hesitant until that issue is resolved. Many others are jaded by the PT, and other Lucas failures, notably Indian Jones IV, and simiarly worried, though there is a group that is elated Lucas himself has stepped aside.

    Ultimately, producing a good blockbuster is surprisingly difficult. There's a particular set of skills relevant to working with the epic canvas that many directors and writers simply never develop, especially in a modern scene which has turned away from the format (prestige-wise). There's a reason Michael Bay has become modern blockbuster royalty despite possessing basically one top tier movie-making skill (the art of making things blow up in truly awe-inspiring fashion).

    The ST is heading into uncharted Star Wars territory. I give maybe a coin flip chance of being good. The chance of it being truly great, almost none.
  2. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I'm in my 30s now and I certainly don't watch Star Wars for action. I like it, of course, and I think Lucas is underrated as an action director, but it's not like it's lacking from other blockbusters these days. As I see it, the PT has a great story (half a story) marred by the execution flaws (mostly writing and acting). However, I usually give them a pass because to me Star Wars is primary a story told through visuals and music (incidentally, this was Lucas's approach to Star Wars from the start). That's why I consider ROTJ to be the weakest of the bunch: not only the story is not finished appropriately, it's also the least visually interesting entry. Acting and dialogue were never all that good even in OT, so as long as there're no embarrassingly bad scenes (like AOTC), I don't care much (but something tells me Arndt will be an improvement).
    Last edited by -NaTaLie-, Nov 20, 2012
  3. LukeSkywalker7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2012
    There's a good chance I'll like it if they pull off the miracle of not having it seemed forced with everything being wrapped up with episode 6. I've been psyched to hear the news of the big 3 coming back but the more I think of it I don't need Han Solo back. I loved the character but I don't think he would be necessary and if he doesn
    "t get enough to do Harrison Ford will probably complain about it. Leia i think is easier to pull off with making her a politician or motherly character if she has any kids.
    It's out of the hands of Lucas. Does anyone know an adult that thought Jar Jar made the movie better? Of course not. Star Wars will be a laughing stock and the director's rep will be forever tarnished if he tries pulling some of the stuff Lucas did. I just watched Phantom Menace with my girlfriend. She has never seen any Star Wars. It was terrible. Just terrible. I tried to only remember the really cool parts but there were too many awful ones that NO director could repeat again. Thanks to Lucas for creating the whole universe and all but nobody could repeat such awful characters,and horrid dialogue the way he could. It can only get MUCH MUCH better..
  4. LukeSkywalker7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2012
    GOTTA ditch the EU stuff. I think that's key.
  5. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    Why?
  6. THX_1138biggs Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2007
    star 1
    Last edited by THX_1138biggs, Nov 20, 2012
  7. THX_1138biggs Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2007
    star 1
    no reply
    Last edited by THX_1138biggs, Nov 20, 2012
  8. Evil--Yoda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 1
    I don't understand why so many people include "too much CGI" as one of the prequels pitfalls.

    Could someone explain to me how the use of CGI made the films worse?
  9. Jedi_Lover Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2004
    star 5
    I think if a person had a preconceived notion as to what should happen in the prequels then you probably are correct.

    But in my case, I don't think I once wondered what happened before ANH. I assumed Anakin Skywalker fell to the Darkside. Interviews with Lucas and actors in the late 70's and early 80's gave hints that Vader fought Obi-Wan and fell in some lava. So I didn't give the PT much thought.

    My vision was always for what happens to Luke, Leia and Han in the future, so I didn't have any preconceived plot in my head when I walked into the theater to see TPM.

    I did not like the PT because of Jar Jar Binks. To me, he killed the PT...plain and simple. It wasn't because the movie didn't have the storyline I wanted. I simply hated the character. He was annoying. So annoying that I cannot watch the movie again.

    But I think you are totally on the mark when it comes to EP7. I have wondered about the fate of our heroes since ROTJ came out. I am an avid reader of the EU. So I do have some expectations and I know there is no way in the world I am going to be 100% satisfied. So I think the odds are more like a million-to-one that EP7 will be everything I hoped for.
    Last edited by Jedi_Lover, Nov 20, 2012
  10. Vid_The_Impaler Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Especially early on, a lot of it looked fake, like the enormous CGI battle between the Gungans and Droids. But beyond that, actors just can't act as believably if they're looking at a green screen as they can if looking at an actual set. It makes their actions look artificial and the settings look sterile.
    Pro Scoundrel likes this.
  11. DarthLowBudget Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    Because of the baggage. It would be a storytelling nightmare.
  12. Avnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2007
    star 2
    I really don't understand why fans insist on defending the prequels... If you loved them cool -the rest of the world laugh at them.

    I loved parts -loathed parts.
    Cantina Bassist and Heero_Yuy like this.
  13. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    And what makes you think that fanboys' rants represent the rest of the world?

    It's Lucasfilm that laughed all the way to the bank sin 1997 - most recently with the Blu Rays' sales. You know, the ones that fans called to boycott.

    Also, stating the facts is not a defending. Was there a lot of CGI in the prequels? Of course, just like in any modern scifi/fantasy blockbuster. Was it all CGI? No, it's not true, there were a lot of practical effects still in use.
    Last edited by -NaTaLie-, Nov 21, 2012
  14. Bazinga'd Dark Lord of the SWC/PT/ Spinoff Forums

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 5
    I think the odds that I will love the ST will be 100%. I love everything Star Wars (except portions of the EU and of course the Jar Jar Binks Bloodline) and I give it my unconditional support.
  15. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Pre-PT, people of all ages loved the Wars, there wasn't even a question. Now if you say that you are a fan of Star Wars, people act as if there might be something a little off about you developmentally. It's embarrassing.
  16. DarthLowBudget Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 5
    Its not "fanboy rants" that dislike the prequels, its the general population who thinks they were kind of dumb. And can we stop using the perjorative rhetoric? It makes it difficult to have a conversation.
  17. Master Hamahiga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    Well said....I am just happy that new Star Wars films are being made in the long run. The more I watched the PT the more I came to appreciate them over the course of time. Do I think they are equal to the OT? No. However, they do have their own appeal and they fit within the star wars universe nicely for the most part.
    black_saber likes this.
  18. The Crippled God Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 1
    Interesting thread, especially the discussion re: the prequels and how they might have lowered audience expectations for Episode VII.
    The Phantom Menace, and perhaps especially Attack of the Clones ruined Star Wars for me as my number one entertainment in the sense that I found them so bad I lost the interest in "living" the Force - I stopped collecting memorabilia and toys, lost interest in reading Insider, novels and comic books - you can argue all you will that the prequels are good and misunderstood but when they stop dead a 20+ year fandom something must have gone horribly wrong (for me and others like me, at the very least). I know, I know, there are many suggestions as to why exactly the prequels made such a bad impression on many fans (like "You expected the OT, got something else", or "It was different than the script in your mind", "The PT has just as bad dialogue as the OT" to name a few I remember from '99-'05), but they are simply not true and have been refuted (not that I am trying to get into that discussion here!)

    My points, then, are (subjective points, I realize, but still):

    1) Yes, the prequels have lowered my expectations to the point that 'as long as it is better than the PT I'll be happy', though I do not think this is the entire truth; a film barely better than, say, Revenge of the Sith will still be quite the abomination in my personal opinion. But I would probably let out a sigh or relief that at least they didn't get worse. Now that would be a nightmare equal to a nest of gundarks, no?

    2) The fact that I dislike(d) the PT so much makes me, I believe, just as excited for the sequels as I was before The Phantom Menace was released; and I believe that the fact that they can go anywhere with the sequels is a good thing - more options, more ideas, and hopefully less dependent on the existing films. I mean, they could set the films a hundred years after Jedi featuring a Skywalker descendant. It wouldn't gel all that well as a third trilogy, but they could do it. With the PT, Lucas was tied up to the established backstory and he obviously decided to do his best to "twist" that backstory to make it surprising to the audience already knowing where the story was headed, and thereby going overboard and ruining it.
    So, no matter how much the PT tarnished Star Wars' reputation and honor in my personal opinion, I am still excited about the sequels but perhaps for different reasons than if they had been announced in, say, 1985. Back then, I'd be excited and speculating about Luke, Han and Leia's further adventures, now I'm more curious and trying to think up all the ways the sequel trilogy's story could go. That's also the key word here. Story. If the PT had a good story, much could have been salvaged. It had some good concepts, but the story wasn't there to tie it neatly together. Look at how smoothly the simple stories of A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back flow. They were more personal, of course, but the scenes all interconnect to give you a fantastic fun ride through the galaxy far, far away. In the prequels, what little story we get is marred by inconsistencies .... wait a minute I told myself I wasn't going to go all out on the prequels in this post...forgive [face_blush]

    3) At the same time, these films are going to be the chronological continuations of the original trilogy, which makes me apprehensive to say the least. Jedi is so terribly final in its conclusion, leaving very little room for the writer unless he moves the storyline forward to give himself some "breathing space" to allow a new back-story to fit between the trilogies. They can't skip two years unless they use CGI stand-ins for Han, Leia and Luke (which I think is very unlikely); they can however skip a generation or two to kind of redress the setting for the sequels. So for now I believe that's where we are headed - quite a jump in time, more perhaps even than between the two first trilogies. If the sequels have a Skywalker main character and the droids that should be enough to give the three trilogies a sense of belonging to the same saga IMO.
    KilroyMcFadden likes this.
  19. Master Hamahiga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    Wow, quite the long post here. Not sure where to begin. LOL
  20. The Crippled God Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 1
    Try from top to bottom ;)
    Jedi_Lover likes this.
  21. Avnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2007
    star 2
    Tell me about it...

    Star Wars was LOVED by everyone I know -it was cool!

    The prequels destroyed it in most peoples eyes. I remember actually feeling embarrased standing in the midnight line to see Attack and Revenge. Didn't feel that way about Lord of the Rings though...

    I really hope the new films bring the respect back!
  22. Dranem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    I kind of agree with the first part, but I remember it differently to be honest. The only people who "loved" Star Wars post ROTJ and Pre-Prequel (is that a word?) were geeks like me who grew up with the movies as a kid. I didn't know too many 30-40 year olds that professed a passion for Star Wars after the OT came out and faded from memory during the mid 80's to 90's.

    I still contend that if you liked the movies as a kid or teen when the originals came out, you have a much higher rate of downright loving the original flims. Based on how much you loved the originals and what you were expecting can be proportionate to how much you hated the prequels in my opinion. I remember leaving The Phantom Menace and realizing that is was nothing like what I was expecting.

    I was 20 years old when that came out in 1999, and it blew away all the theories and stories my friends and I came up with while we killed time playing Super Star Wars, Shadows of the Empire, and reading The Thrawn Trilogy. I left the movie confused a bit, but knowing I had seen something that I liked personally. A few of my friends did not like the movie, and others (myself included) really enjoyed it outside of the childish antics of Jar Jar. And as I grew to accept the stories that Lucas was laying out for me were not what I had come with during the 16 year hiatus, I grew to like and appreciate the prequels even more.

    I think the most important thing to remember is that these movies are the myths of our youth. They are not going to turn around and make Star Wars a Matrix-like parable or a Game Of Thrones in space epic (though that would be AWESOME). They are space-operas mostly geared towards younger audiences with character arcs in lieu of characterization and depth. They are about general themes of good and evil and moral codes that guide us, just like any good myth. I totally understand why there are those that don't like the prequels, but you needn't look further than the younger generations of Star Wars fans who hold them in equal or even higher esteem than the originals to understand that Star Wars transcends generations and will continue to do so.

    The argument that anyone thinks you are "a little off developmentally" doesn't hold water when it comes down to personal tastes in movies. I could care less if someone thinks I'm dumb for liking a movie, the fact is we all have an opinion on these films and that's just fine. I just don't like the argument that only "true fans" like the OT and bow down before it while those who like the whole thing are off and misguided. That's a non-starter with me.
  23. The Crippled God Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 1
    Game of Thrones in Space. Yes please!
    I remember it the same way; Star Wars mostly faded from the radar but I was eating it daily, and as new product was being released prior to the Special Editions I ate more and more. Watching Menace I was so emotionally confused, and I watched it over and over again but instead of growing on me I began to despise it. Not because it didn't go the way I had imagined it (to be honest I hadn't really thought much about it aside from expecting a "lava duel"), not because I was a grown up and Jar Jar was for kids, but because it didn't have a good story I could lose myself in.
    Pro Scoundrel and Dranem like this.
  24. The Crippled God Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 1
    Last edited by The Crippled God, Nov 21, 2012
  25. Dranem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    I kind of miss the days when being a Star Wars fan was kind of a rare thing. I can totally see how watching it again and again in that state would make someone grow to hate the film. Of all the Star Wars movies I watch in a year, that one is pretty low rotation and sometimes not at all.

    I am not trying to come off an act like the prequels were great movies, just that I enjoyed them for what they were and how they added to the mythos overall. I think the biggest constraint on them was the fact that they had to tie up into the endgame that we all knew was coming and fit with Episode IV. I think the chains can really come off story-wise with Episodes VII-IX so that makes me even more excited now than I was in 1998!