Why them?

Discussion in 'Melbourne, FL' started by Thumper09, Dec 1, 2002.

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  1. Thumper09 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2001
    star 4
    Hi everyone. In the hopes of stirring up some discussion here, I decided to post a question that I've been curious about for a while.

    Take your favorite group of characters in the Star Wars universe: Imperials, Rebels, smugglers, Jedi, stormtroopers, whatever. My question is, why are they your favorite? Is there something in particular that draws you to them? Do they have the most interesting ships? Fascinating skills? The most power? What?

    Wow, I'll even go first.

    I gather that most of you know by now that I like the Rebels. If you don't, well, look at my signature file and my icon, and I just said so too. There are two reasons I've come up with for why I like the Rebellion so much.

    1) I've always liked the underdog, and the Rebellion is very decidedly an underdog. I thought of a few ways to illustrate this, but the only one that seems even halfway relevant anymore is to merely reiterate that I've been an Anaheim Angels fan since 1992, through the years when they would end up 20+ games out of first place, and in spite of all the weird looks people would give me <coughBuzzcough> because no one thought they'd ever do anything and I didn't like the hometown team or someone like the Yankees who are popular everywhere. For me, it's more fun to stick it out with someone (or some group) who isn't expected to win by any means and still manages to pull it off. But even if they don't, it still can be a fun ride (and yes, I've lost lots of money betting on 50-1 and 99-1 long shots in horse races).

    2) Probably the most significant reason why I like the Rebellion is that, regardless of whether they are right or wrong for doing so in this situation, I admire the fact that they put everything on the line and stood up for something they believe in. I know that in real life I'd never have the guts to do that, so I live vicariously through the Rebels.

    DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to spark a debate over which group (Rebels and Imperials) is wrong or right or whatnot. I'm just interested in why you've picked a particular group to "root for," if you have. You don't have to be as long-winded as me.

    It's late and my brain is way too full from studying for finals. Maybe that's covering up that this is actually a dumb question, but what the hey. I'll post it anyway 'cause it's been too quiet here. Maybe if nothing else I'll get a bunch of PMs saying, "You're weird and you thought about this way too much." :p

    I'm going to sleep now.

    -Katie
    Thumper
  2. Emerita Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Well, I'm with you. I love the Rebels because I've always rooted for the underdog. I particularly like the Jedi because they are the elite in discipline and strength and are not to be trifled with. They lead quiet lives of self awareness and are devoted to helping others.
  3. Ruckus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    The biggest underdogs are the smugglers- like the smugglers of the Space Coast for instance. Smugglers travel the hyperspace lanes hauling stuff for both Imperials and Rebels. They live exciting lives- some of them. Women, money, wookies and fast ships! Man what else could a person want? Travelling oppurtunites and meeting lots of shady people! I think all of that is why I like smugglers over anything else. Jedi might be cool cause they have cool powers- but unless you are a dark Jedi where is the fun in it all? It's like being a anonymous Batman figure. Plus who doesn't wanna work for Jabba The Hutt or Talon Karrde? I'd like to work for the Jabba Pizza Hutt on Tattoine- make a trip to Naboo- if we don't have your pizza delivered in less the 12 parsecs it's free. Of course what did distance have to do with time?
  4. Thumper09 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2001
    star 4
    Hey, Em! Good to see you "in the area."

    -Katie
    Thumper
  5. Sandy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2002
    star 2
    Give me the Empire! Underdogs should be crushed like all other troublemakers!

    I'd choose the Imperial military, although some discussion of right or wrong must come into this. These guys are defending the Empire from a bunch of terrorists under extremely difficult leadership conditions. They don't like Vader or the Emporer, and undoubtedly would like to dump them themselves, but still risk their lives to maintain the integrity of the Empire. I have to believe they are fighting for the greater good of several billion different beings who would get slaughtered in full-scale anarchy because that's the rule of law, not their own personal wish of how things ought to be. (Of course, this is based on the presumption that they view the Emporer and Vader and any other Sithness as a temporary problem that will go away in 10-20 years when Palpatine dies off). TPM and AOTCs pretty well defined that the Old Republic isn't the paradise the OT hinted at. Its a mass of corruption brought on by an invalid government. The Empire is rigid but does work. You don't have to keep the military on hold, unable to face a threat, until you get an initiative from Jar Jar Binks. You just send them and they take care of a problem. The mass of the galaxy is protected. They patrol the space lanes, deploy troops when trouble breaks out in a region, and maintain order. In the Republic, an entire planet can be seized and nothing is done about it. In the Empire, that would last just long enough for the starfleet to arrive and blast the blockades to bits. I have to believe they wouldn't want to return to the Old Republic's United Nations-like weaknesses.

    For individual heroes, I'd choose Admiral Piett. The guy does what he's supposed to do, never makes a mistake, and manages to survive a less than forgiving political leader who bumps off commanders who make mistakes. Even his "failure" is actually a failure of a subordinate not of his ability to follow Vader's plan or make the right decisions at the right time. You gotta love someone like that.

    I have to admit, Jango Fett is a real close second, but only because he's the only true warrior in the entire SW universe.

    Sandy
  6. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    Well, my vote is with the members of the rebellion before it is the New Republic. The members of the "ANH" rebellion at least.

    I like them because of reasons Thumper and Sandy have both mentioned. The rebellion is being pressed forward by a group of individuals who believe that the Empire is being led by a bunch of corrupt individuals and must be stopped. We see in the books as well as the movie that the rebels were made up of normal civilians who join for various reasons but most of them have some sob story about personal atrocities at the hands of the empire. Others who joined are ex Imperial Military who have decided that the leaders of the Empire are corrupt and need to be stopped.
    I think the idea that they have the guts to stand up to the corruption/evil that is facing the Empire and stop the atrocities that are being performed in the Empire?s name is everything to me. It?s one thing to have beliefs and another thing to stick to those beliefs and stand up for them. That being said, I deplore those who DO stand up for there beliefs in the wrong way. A terrorist is a good example of that. I wouldn?t consider the Rebels as terrorist because of their actions. The Rebellion consistently only hit military targets from everything we see in the movies and in most if not all of the books and comics. The corrupt/evil leaders of the Empire on the other hand liked using terrorist tactics. The Empire destroyed 2 planets and most of a third to enslave the race that lived there. The whole Kryptos virus was another example of something created by leaders in the Empire to promote terror. Creating terror in people was one of the reasons the Rebellion was started in the first place.

    That being said, I still like the Empire. The Empire is a huge military and civilian organization. They have accomplished a lot of things. We hear a lot about all of the evil the Empire does but somewhere there has to be lots of things the Empire does that is good and benefits civilization. Sandy listed some of them. There have to be more. They definitely had R&D sections and the advances they may have made might have been significant and benefited civilization. They also pushed the ?known? universes farther with exploration. So I like them too. I just dislike some of the methods they chose to accomplish the things they did and that dislike would have made me a Rebel. In any large organization you are going to have spoiled apples that ruin the bunch. It just seems that the Empire has a disproportionate number in leadership positions. Or maybe they don?t. The Empire is supposed to have a very large fleet. We don?t even see all of the fleet at any time . There has to be plenty of commanders (admirals/generals/grand moffs) that served with distinction and never did anything that contributed to the list of grievances by the Rebels.

    :p Just my opinion.


  7. Sandy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2002
    star 2
    Art,

    You identified one big gulf in answering this question. I spoke strictly using the 5 films as my sole basis. The books, comics, etc. give an entirely different view of the Empire, often to justify the character's actions. Nobody likes a gunman who starts shooting just because he's unhappy.

    The terrorist label for the rebels is admittedly argueable. They have a lot of aspects that conventional terrorists share. They maintain hidden bases, they strike suddenly and run away, and they are dedicated to subverting a legal government to cause its downfall. That pretty well fits mosts terrorist groups. I'm not a huge believer that terrorists don't earn the label when they purely strike at military targets. Would you consider the gunman in Kuwait who shot the two US marines to be a terrorist? I would but others might not. Keep in mind that no terrorist ever calls himself that. They are always rebels, freedom fighters, nationalists, patriots, or some other easy to stomache title. The one thing the SW rebels lack that true terrorists embrace is a desire to strike fear into all aspects of their enemies lives. They do plan their operations as military strikes. I guess the definition might reside strictly on whether or not you'd consider the rebels a true military force. The Empire probably wouldn't, which would make them terrorists. I'd have to concede that they probably are, which would make them closer to revolutionaries. The biggest shortfall the rebels have in the legitimacy catagory is that there isn't any hint that anyone asked them to tear up the galaxy and save them. The few hints the films do give show that everyone is actually fairly content with how things are until the rebels bump their way and start causing trouble.


    Katie,

    What context is this question framed in? Is this films only, films and books, anythinng SW-ish? What's the scope?


    Sandy


  8. Thumper09 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 2001
    star 4
    To be honest, I never considered the scope of the question because I never expected it to get this in-depth.

    The vast majority of the books I can think of, though, take place after the Rebel Alliance has become the New Republic, and I personally consider them two different entities. I know the Empire was in pretty much all the books and movies in one way or another. I'll have to think about that, unless you want to go with a Pre-Emperor's-Death-Empire and a Post-EDE to separate from the end of the movies and the later books.

    I know this response doesn't answer anything, but I may have something better tonight. Right now, spacecraft attitude determination is taking up a lot of my mental capacity.

    -Katie
    Thumper
  9. Emerita Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Hi Katie....yeah, I thought I'd jump over and take a look and I like what I see so far.....
  10. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    Well, I do agree that the impression we get from the movies is totally different from what we get from the books. I think all of the events in the movies in the Original Trilogy except the destruction of the planet in ANH and the destruction of the Jedi can be justified. Most of them can even be seen as reasonable. I can't remember if the Empire enslaving alien races or their attitude toward alien's are in the movie. I think it isn't. Even the disolving of the Senate can be seen as a justified action if you look at TPM and the corruption and uselessness of it.


    As for the Rebels being terrorists, well, if you are an inferior force trying to fight a much larger force the only hope you have is by hiding and fighting covertly. The fact that the Empire knew about the "Rebel Alliance" might mean that someone formally told the Emperor they were rebelling. We know that the Emperor wasn't going to let any planet leave the Empire. (Events of AOTC) One of the big leaders of the Rebellion was sitting in his office when he made that announcement as the Supreme Chancellor and I'm sure his mind didn't change on that subject when he became the Emperor. Maybe at the time they knew the Emperor would use force to quash any hint at Rebellion or succession so the only hope was to overthrow the Empire. And since we have the example of the "rebellion" in AOTC (which still bugs me as the "clone war" explanation) that was crushed by the clone army, hiding and being secret was the rebels only option. I would call the Rebels revolutionaries more than terrorists.

    That's all theories since we don't know *what* started the rebellion we see in ANH. For all we know, it was the same rebellion that started the clone war just continued. We just know that it was happening at the time of ANH.

    And I don't think the movies hint at anything being content or not being content. The only thing on that subject wouldn have to be that huge celebration after the Death Star's destruction and death of the Emperor over Endor on Coruscant. (Which the movie ends there but the books tell of how the person in charge on Coruscant broke the "rioting" crowd with Stormtroopers firing leathal weapons into the crowd) I might have missed other things though.

    As for our world or just terrorists in general that's probably a discussion we can have in person. ;-) It would take too long to explain here and hard to put my views on paper in a short response though I tried. It would be an interesting discussion to have though as I do see some of the groups who have committed terrorist acts as being military instead of the labeled "terrorists". To me, there is a difference between soldiers and terrorists. To me, terrorists are criminals and not soldiers. The difference between the two is a fine line though developed by our society and constantly changing as we evolve and grow. It really depends on your prospective if you are a soldier or a terrorist. I believe though, that the true mark of a soldier is that no matter what prospective you have, you recognize a soldier (and not just someone who has a gun or something).

    Tieing that into the SW discussion, if you use that definition, you can see why I think the Rebels are not terrorists. I think they can be definied as freedom fighters or revolutionaries but they can be recognized as a fighting military force.

    Art
  11. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    Thumper,

    We just love discussion here...

    There's your first experience at the "party" taking a left turn on you! ;-)


    Art
  12. Ruckus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Our forefathers were terrorist? Or revolutionaries? The big difference is the cause. Terrorist do what they do to subvert the ways of people and terrorize them. Revolutionaries fight to bring about a just and civil way of living. Or atleast what they see just and civil. Bring change to a ruling body that is both hostile to peoples individual freedoms and to rule by force or fear, sometimes both. The better term to use for the Rebellion is revolutionaries- even in ANH- Han realized what they were when he told Leia he wasn't intrested in 'your revolution.' So you say you want a revolution? Well they did.
  13. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    You know what group I think are worth mentioning...TIE pilots. These guys *knew* they were expendable. Yet they go out time and time again and follow orders. There ships had no shields, basic life support, and no hyperdrives. If the main ship had to withdrawl they were left to die or surrender. The either had to be stupid or very loyal to do what they did time and again. It's argueable which they were. <g>
  14. Sandy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2002
    star 2
    Art,

    I'd agree with that. Same with the hallway troops in the beginning of ANH. With racks of escape pods in place I'm not sure my first option would have been to stand against a star destroyer's worth of troops.

    Sandy
  15. LordGoldenArrow Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 2
    Yeah! I always wondered about how "smart" that was. I looked at how many troops a Star Destroyer carried and then that scene just looses all it's purpose. They couldn't have been hoping to just delay the Imperials. That doesn't make sense to me.
  16. LadyDemoness Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2001
    star 1
    Why the Galactic Empire of course!

    Darth Vader use to be my all time favorite character until I fell in love with General Maximilian Veers! (And no Art he's NOT dead! Movies over books, always! 8-} ) I've always liked the military might of the Empire. The impressive Star Destroyers that can make you awe in wonder and in fear as you imagine one of those powerful ships orbiting your planet with enough fire power to turn a city into slag, the fast shrieking TIE Fighters, Interceptors, Bombers, and Advanced fighters fill your need for speed. The massive Imperial AT-AT Walkers tromping along in the snow covered landscape blasting away at Rebel troopers and annoying snowspeeders. All of this can leave you in awe, wonder, and admiration.

    My attachment to the Imperial military is mostly the result of my facination for our own Military and our own Wars, and that my father is also in the military.

    I particularly like the Empire's Armed Forces. You just can't beat an Imperial AT-AT with any other existing technology. Nothing can outmatch, outclass, and outdo these massive machines. (Yeah you can knock their legs out from under them, but got anything that can STEP on them? I thought not. 8-} )

    The Empire is also the order which we all long for. It is also the governmental body that is best suited to ruling an entire Galaxy. The Old Republic tried and slowly killed itself. The Empire was killed by Old Republic loyalists who were upset that they lost their glory and power they loved so much. (Did the movies say that the Old Republic was 25,000 years old or is that just a EU thing?)

    All forms of Government have their rotten eggs, but it is kind of difficult to throw out those rotten eggs when they can choke you to death from 20 ft away! :D

    Hey, if anyone has been keeping up with the Darkhorse comic series, "Empire: Betrayel", its about a group of Imperials trying to assassinate the Emperor and Lord Vader. I forgot their reasons though and I need to hop on over to BooksAMillion to catch up. It reminds me of the conspirators who tried to assassinate Adolf Hitler in WWII.
  17. Sandy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2002
    star 2
    Stephanie,

    You hit upon a great moment here. In ESB, when they show the Imperial Fleet moving through space, you get a definite feeling of power -- you know these guys own everything.

    Sandy
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