Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Sitara, Mar 3, 2013.
yup, kinda the same thing as Maul vs Obi
And, also, Maul was tired from fighting Qui-Gon.
Oh yeah - Vader/Anakin was tired from killing an entire temple of Jedi. When Obi-Wan went against Vader, Obi-Wan was fresh, while Vader was worn out from all the fighting done previously. People tend to forget this.
Being tired doesn't give Maul an excuse for being a fool and letting Obi Wan fly over him and cutting him in half. Also Vader had time to rest during his flight to Mustafar. Killing the separatists shouldn't have been that tiring. They didn't put up much of a fight.
If you really want to get into it then I'd suggest Obi-Wan was more drained than Anakin in that fight. Dude just flew across the galaxy trapped in a tiny restroom, gotta be dealing with some mad cramp.
I agree with the statement on Dooku, his face shows his shock as Palpatine says "Kill Him". I think he wasn't expecting that.
For the statement on the Mustafar fight Anakin in my opinion wasn't thinking clearly enough. I hate when Anakin tries to flip over Obi-Wan, he could have lived to fight another day and not have to wear the mechanical suit.
Because Maul had style where Dooku had substance.
I think the word of George Lucas, creator of Star Wars counts as indisputable proof.
The following conversation took place in April 1999
Q: Does that mean you won't do episodes seven, eight and nine?
Lucas: I will not do seven, eight and nine.
Q: You will not? Will they be made by somebody else?
Lucas: No. They will not.
Q: So this trilogy ends it?
Lucas: This is it. This is all there is.
The word of George Lucas is fickle. It is valuable only in the moment he actually said it.
He is speaking the half truth. ROTS is where it ended for him.
By the way, Anakin was able to defeat Tyrannus because he was a more powerful Force user, a more experienced fighter by the time of ROTS and more in control of his emotions at the time. The reason Obi-Wan was able to defeat him on Mustafar was because Anakin had allowed his emotions to get the best of him. Even a good swordsman/boxer or whatever knows it's best to keep your emotions in check when you're in some kind of fight.
As for Obi-Wan, he was lucky that Anakin's emotional state was out of whack on Mustafar. And Tyrannus was simply a better swordsman than him.
Although I did read the ROTS novel years back (my memory of it is a little hazy), I hadn't really thought of the fact that Dooku probably did expect to win his rematch against Anakin. But like others have said, he didn't expect to be killed in either outcome of the duel. Maybe he is gullible but Dooku seemed to really think, Sidious, and Anakin would be eventually ruling the galaxy.
I agree that Anakin's overconfidence was his downfall against Obi-Wan. I think by the end of the duel his frustration at not being able to break through Obi-Wan's defences (ironically largely because they used to be so close) made Anakin make a brash move. Obi-Wan bails to higher ground with the intention of ending the fight, and Anakin gets cocky and tries something Obi-Wan warns him not to do.
On the subject of Anakin possibly being tired from his other fights, how long is it supposed to be between the Temple raid and the Mustafar duel?
My point stands. George Lucas's certainties are definitely maybe.
And Obi-Wan was tired from fighting a lot of droids, Grievous and escaping and fighting clones. People tend to forget this.
There could be many reasons and most likely a combination of them, why Skywalker was able to defeat Dooku but not Kenobi:
1) Skywalker was fighting Dooku for the life of his two best friends (Kenobi and Palps). On the other side, he was fighting Kenobi when he went full dark side, had emotions, had just betrayed everything he loved, destroyed the Jedi Order and killed a lot of kids.
2) Lightsaber style. Kenobi had a lot of difficulty fighting Dooku because of his lightsaber style which was a more defensive style and not that adequate on lightsaber combat. Anyway, he knew how Skywalker fights (cause he taught him how to fight), so here the disadvantage wasn't that big.
3) Kenobi was wiser and more cunning that Skywalker. While Skywalker arguably and most likely was more powerful, Kenobi was wiser, knew on the entire duel what he will do and let Skywalker leading the fight while he waited for an opportunity to defeat him. Even his famous words "I have the higher ground", could have been part of his plan to challenge Anakin to do it. Anakin on the other hand was over-confident. We are talking for the boy who even as a Padawan believed that he is stronger than Yoda.
4) Sidious plan. Neutralise Skywalker, kill Kenobi. Dooku was not going to kill Skywalker on that fight, that fight and the entire kidnapped of Palpatine, was supposed to be a way to turn Skywalker to the dark side. Dooku of course, didn't knew that he was going to die there, but he didn't intend to kill Skywalker. Minutes before, Palps told him that Skywalker potentially can become even stronger than Palps, and in the end the Rule of Two wasn't set in stone. The rule was created from Bane as a way to survive the order, but if Palps overthrow-ed the Republic and the Jedi Order the rule could have changed.
5) A good day. A bad day. Could have been simply like this. In everything, there could be days when you do your work better than in others. In sports that is know of being in form, or out of form.
6) The Force works in mysterious ways.
Except Maul didn't know that Obi-wan was going to force-grab Qui-Gon's lightsaber until it's too late.
Obi-wan, on the the other hand, knew in advance what Anakin was about to do, hence the "Don't try it" quote.
Maul's overconfidence was his weakness.
Dooku was like 80. He had spent a good 70 years as a Jedi and another 10 as a Sith Lord. I don't really think Anakin could be considered "more experienced". I think the word your looking for is "better".
He was a more experienced fighter since the last time they fought. It probably helped that he fought Dooku several times during the war.
Dooku fought his fair share of opponents during the war..and why would the last 3 years matter more than a lifetime of combat experience?
Because Anakin is pretty much a demigod with enough power, skill, and anger to beat an experienced Sith. Dooku's experience means nothing when he gets out fought by a far younger, more powerful guy. Tyranus was just a disposable placeholder.
Anakin was angry and pissy and paid dearly for it.
Sitara, you're a fight fan? Then you should know that styles make fights.
He cut off your arm you wanted revenge....
Anakin did want to kill Dooku, so no matter what Palps said, Anakin did as he wished.... He wanted to kill Dooku, Palms just approved it.
Anakin did NOT want to kill Obi Wan.... In the Novel he asks/begs Obi Wan to leave... "for old times sake". He did not want to kill "the closest thing I have to a father". In practices and sparring, Anakin always won against Obi Wan. Anakin loved Obi-Wan. it is evident throughout the movie when Padme references that Obi-Wan is worried. he likes that Obi-Wan is worried for him, cares for him. as he does back.
Obi Wan was capable of killing Anakin.... I will do what I must..... He didn't get clouded by his emotions....
Killing Obi-Wan for Anakin would have meant: Loose his mother... Loose his father.... AND his wife and kids... He would be completely alone.
That is why in the end he says.... "I hate you". Before hate... comes love...
When Anakin says... "this is the end for you my master" obi wan was terrified.... And in a couple of strokes had obi wan jumping off.
He got cocky because he was giving obi wan a "break" and he "insulted him". He lost....
I enjoy a good martial arts fight yes (though I myself do not have the guts to do anything of the sort ) Regarding your statement, any type of fighting form can be said to be a style. Jedi are trained in lightsaber combat/dueling and they use the Force to forsee their opponents moves and also use the Force to enhance their strength, agility, speed, and flip around for tactical advantage. Plus you have offensive Force techniques like choking, pushing/slamming, lightning, etc etc.
Anyhow, I just found it ridiculous that Dooku would hold back and allow himself to be so easily decieved like that. He should have tried turning Anakin on his own, failing that he should have killed him immediately.
Wasn't that what Dooku was doing- trying to turn Anakin, a little at a time? Until Anakin chopped off his hands, that is.
Dooku was holding back.