Why was Anakin so angry to not receive the rank of Jedi Master?

So IOW, because Anakin was born with those abilities, he could never possibly achieve Master rank? Seems like telling a gifted kid that he can't ever go to an Ivy League school.

 

Anakin wasn't given the rank of Master because he wasn't even close to deserving it. It's not good policy to hand out promotions like candy.

Are you saying they should have granted Anakin the rank of Master to placate him, like a bribe?

Yeah, that's a good idea.

 

Actually it's a very good idea. Considering Anakin has virtually no loyalty to institutional authority, like the Council's, the only way to make him do anything not of his nature is to create incentives for his cooperation.

One must do what they have to in order to get the job done. "Deserve" has nothing to do with it.

 

Really?



Yeah, great way to run an organization like the Jedi. Seriously, you guys are cracking me up.

You guys have been arguing "why does Anakin have to kiss their ***", now the Council has to kiss Anakin's ***?

No seriously, they should give him whatever he wants and let him do anything he pleases. Go ahead and marry Padme and have a bunch of kids. Make him Grand Master of the Order. Yeah, that's a much better approach than discipline. Because we all know how well people respond and behave when they're spoiled, allowed to do whatever they want and never hear the word "no". If there's anything we've learned from superstar athletes, it's that making exceptions for them does wonders for their character.

Great idea guys.

 

Of course he could, but he hadn't when Palpatine tried to force him on the council.

No one is saying its a sign of weakness, just that there was no reason to coddle Anakin just because he was given a mission.

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They weren't mean to him, they treated him like a Jedi. There was ZERO reason to give Anakin special treatment. Do you give your kids candy everytime you tell them its time for bed because they don't want to go?

So they need to put someone with no loyality to them ni a position of power.......

So the council needs to bargin and give Jedi whatever they want to get them to do things.....what a great way to run a para-military order, full of powerful warriors........... Being told he COULDN'T and WOULDN'T juts be given the rank of master is EXCATLY what Anakin needed.


Yes, the college can vote they want too. The voters really only suggest how they should. In practice, they do what the voters want, but they have the power to go another way. Its a check and balance. In Canada, the Queen is still our head of state. If we elected a skin head, racist, war monger PM, the Queen could/would refuse to acknowledge him as our leader.

 

Like you, I do not believe that Anakin was ready to be a Master -- he was too emotionally immature and undisciplined to have earned the rank. Yet the Jedi Council wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to put Anakin on the Council solely so that they can give him an illegal assignment to further their own goals. An assignment that will furthermore place a great deal of stress on one of Anakin's most important friendships. In this case, then, they either need to make Anakin a Master -- a full member of the Council -- or not give him a seat at all. To do otherwise is simply insulting and manipulative.

 

Going back to the topic of the thread.......Why was Anakin so angry to not receive the rank of Jedi Master?

I'm sticking to movies only, to be consistent.

YODA: Allow this appointment lightly, the Council does not. Disturbing is this move by Chancellor Palpatine.

Anakin was appointed to the Council, period.

MACE: You are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master.

Anakin is not granted the rank of Master. This is where he gets angry. In the script it says he "reacts with anger".

ANAKIN: How can you do this?? This is outrageous, it's unfair. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?

All the other stuff that comes after is irrelevant, Anakin got angry just at the knowledge of not being promoted to Master. That's all it took.

Anything you say about Anakin not being treated as an equal is irrelevant since it happens after he got angry. It's also speculation and not corroborated in the movie. The part about them asking him to spy is also irrelevant, since it happened after the meeting was over.


After the meeting was over we get this:

ANAKIN: What kind of nonsense is this, put me on the Council and not make me a Master!?? That's never been done in the history of the Jedi. It's insulting!

Anakin is still angry, in fact in the script it says he's "furious". He's still angry over not being a Master, he hasn't even been asked to spy yet. Anakin believes his situation is unprecedented, and in the movies we have every reason to believe him. Obi-Wan doesn't refute this, but responds with this:

OBI-WAN: Calm down, Anakin. You have been given a great honor. To be on the Council at your age . . . It's never happened before.

Anakin is the youngest to ever be on the Council. We have every reason to believe Obi-Wan.



This is what we know for sure. This is everything that applies to Anakin's anger in this situation.

So, Anakin is the first to be appointed to the Council but not be given the rank of Master. Even though I disagree, let's call this a slight. Anakin is also the youngest to ever be appointed to the Council, I'd say this is a huge honor. I'm pretty sure Anakin is aware that being appointed to the Council at all is an honor, as I'm sure that he is aware that he is very young for such an honor.

Does this sound like a reason to be "outraged"? Does Anakin really have any right to be angry here? Disappointed, maybe. But that's a very pessimistic view. I can't see any legitimate reason to defend Anakin in this situation. I think it's very reasonable to say he overreacted and demonstrated the very flaws that prove he is not worthy of being promoted to Master.

Anakin got angry over not being promoted to Master, does that sound like a Jedi to you? It sounds like uncontrolled anger, pride, greed and arrogance. Does that sound like someone deserving to be a Jedi Master?

I don't think Anakin had a legitimate reason to be angry here, which leads me back to my first post in this thread on the first page.

Other than being huge fans, I don't see why people have defended him so adamantly when your case is so poor.

 

Oh, you're quite right that Anakin is acting immaturely. If he wants to prove to the Council that he is disciplined enough to be a Master then he certainly didn't do himself any favors with his little outburst. But...consider that, as far as the movie demonstrates, he is the only person to be appointed to the Council and not made a Master. And this is somewhat insulting. Yes, it's an honor to even sit on the Council, but don't forget that Anakin has also recently dispatched Count Dooku (the leader of their enemies in the darn war) and rescued the Supreme Chancellor. Just for killing Darth Maul, Obi-Wan was bestowed the title of Jedi Knight. Perhaps it was unreasonable for Anakin to expect to be made a Master, but he probably got his hopes up too much when he heard that they were granting him a seat. In effect, the Council members were saying that they didn't see him as an equal and I think Anakin probably craved the recognition. It is, like you said, not a very Jedi-like trait, though. Also, is it really that much of an honor? He's on the Council basically in name only, as he's not a Master. And in every other scene with Anakin on the Council, he only reports information and is summarily dismissed. Or the other Council members wait for him to leave until they truly discuss important matters (see the war room). I think Anakin may have realized, when they would not give him the rank, that he wasn't truly going to be participating, and that must have stung.

This is also compounded by the fact that Obi-Wan tells him that the only reason he was appointed was because he's close to the Chancellor. So Anakin is forced to realize that the Council members don't actually care about his opinion and are only using him to investigate Palpatine -- something he never signed on to when he accepted his seat. Yes, Anakin overreacted, but the Council doesn't come out smelling like roses either. They're looking at Anakin and asking themselves what they can get out of him in this situation. Anakin did the same thing, and when it backfired, he became angry. I suppose I get more upset with the Council because, while Anakin did complain, he isn't asking anyone to do anything against their moral code or beliefs, nor is he an authority figure.

 

anakin_girl: I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm saying he doesn't deserve Master status solely due to raw power. He needs discipline, honor, and loyalty combined with the *skill* and power first. Compassion wouldn't hurt, either.

Though, I grant that the entire JC was arrogant and misguided to a degree they were *correct* to deny the impulsive kid Mastership when he had no loyalty and only heeded himself.

 

It wasn't a reward, he was ready to take the trails to become a Knight at the time. At worst you could say the Council decided killing a Sith = the Jedi Trails and promoted him without the test everyone else takes (since he still might have gone through them off screen). Anakin is not ready to become a master, so having his buddy get him on the council doesn't him that rank.

According to Obi-Wan, yes.

Then he should also realize the reason its happening is because the council didn't invite him to join them (or go through the normal proccess), but Palpatine basically bullied him onto the council. And if it stings that much, step down until such time as the Jedi want him there and deem him ready. But that would be the mature, adult thing to do.

Palpatine tells him that much before he goes to the council chamber. That scene with Palpatine is very telling. Anakin says "me a master?", then pointed out the council won't accept him if Palpatine forces him on them. He KNOWS what hes doing is wrong and not the way to get on the council and be made a master. But he doesn't care. Hes taking the quick and easy path. And then Mace and Yoda and co. block that quick and easy path, he pouts like a child.


1) Giving him a mission isn't using him
2) They don't need to allow him on the council t give him a mission. This argument has zero validity.


No, just allowing himself to be forced on the Jedi Council.

 

I know. I was just pointing out that since Obi-Wan was elevated in rank for killing a Sith Lord, it might not be unreasonable for Anakin to have had this expectation.

Yes, he's "on" the Council. What I was trying to get at though is that he's not really on the Council. The prestige of the Council comes from being recognized as a Master and making important decisions that will affect all of the Jedi. Considering Anakin has neither of those options bestowed upon him, his position seems like a bit of a glorified seat-warmer. It's not that much of an honor in that regard. Consider that Anakin pointedly asks: "how can you be on the Council and not be a Master?" It's a sign that he isn't going to be held with the same regard as everyone else.

But the Council didn't reject his appointment either, as Anakin expected. He even tells Palpatine that the Jedi make their own decisions and that they will never accept this. They weren't forced to give Anakin a seat on the Council, and they did so only because he was close to the Chancellor. Anakin should have been more mature, yes, but if they didn't deem him ready, then they should have not given him a seat. Telling him that he's going to be on the Council raises his expectations, after all.

Yes, Anakin is taking advantage of Palpatine's offer, but the Council, like I said, was not forced to accept. They also took the quick and easy path as they saw an easy avenue to investigate Palpatine. It was wrong not to tell Anakin that his appointment would mean he would have to spy on the leader of the Republic and a close personal friend. The Jedi Council knew what they were getting out of this deal, but Anakin did not -- they didn't feel the need to inform him of the conditions until after he'd been appointed. And backing out at that point would look terribly suspicious.

Of course it's using him. If it were only a mission, then why not just tell Anakin to spy on the Chancellor? Why have him go through this whole Council business in the first place? It's because they saw an opportunity for subterfuge and they took it. Why else would this assignment be off the record? Why else would Anakin say "you're asking me to do something against the Republic, the Jedi Code, a mentor, and a friend -- that's what's out of place...why are you asking this of me?" And Obi-Wan can only reply with: "the Council is asking you." You really don't think that this heavily implies, if not outright states, that this mission is putting Anakin into a legally compromised situation?

 

Dare I say to believe that we're inching to a certain amount of agreement?

A lot of blame to go around, some poor decisions in hindsight...petulant behavior on all parts. That's about all I'll say now except to address one thing (which I suppose is also open to interpretation): Obi-Wan was not knighted for killing Maul. He was knighted for facing WHILE fighting Maul the trials of the mirror, etc. - i.e. overcoming his anger to reach for the Force, etc.

 

Sure, Obi-Wan most definitely earned the rank of Jedi Knight. Heck, I don't even see what's wrong with knighting him for controlling his anger and defeating Maul. It's no mean feat to have survived and overcome a battle-hardened Sith Lord, and it's at least as difficult as anything he would have encountered during the Trials. I only pointed it out because it's certainly possible that Anakin might have believed himself worthy of promotion because he'd done something similar (defeating Dooku), although he hadn't matured enough to take on all the responsibilities such a position would entail.

 

Two completely different situations. Obi-Wan was ready to take that next step up, Anakin wasn't. Thats a HUGE difference.

Again, accordign to Obi-Wan it is an honor. Maybe its normal for new members to have much, if any, of a voice in meetings.

Zero evidence of this. Sorry, its a non-valid argument. There is nothing that indicates they need Anakin on the council to give him a mission. We don't know excatly why they decided to go along with Palpatine, how much was their decision and how much wasn't. Try to stick to the facts and not your assumptions.


They are using their people in the best way they can. But they don't need to put Anakin on the council to give him this assignment.

Then its on Anakin to realize hes put himself in that situation and remove himself from it. Putting Anakin in a situation hes not ready for, giving hima rank he hasn't earned, feeding his ego, showing him the quick and easy path pays off......its not an option for the Jedi.

Given Palpatines statements to Anakin about the whole thing, I think its safe to say Palpatine, while not part of the order, does carry a lot of weight and can go a long way in bullyign them to get what he wants. Ultimatly we dunno what kind of pressure/suction Palpatine can put on them/has. We do know they allowed him on the council very grugingly.

He says it as an insult to Anakin. That Palpatine forced Anakin on them. Clearly they want Anakin to tell palpatine what they want him too, Palpatine doesn't need to trust Anakin for him to spy on him. Why is it do you think they NEEDED to let Anakin on the council to give him a mission?

 

You can't use the "they didn't treat Anakin as an equal on the Council" argument. First, he got angry before that happened. Second, we don't know how things work on the Council. It seems like Yoda and Mace do all the talking throughout the prequels anyway. We don't hear much from the other members of the Council. They seem to respect the wisdom of Yoda and Mace and comply with their wishes. In fact, we actually hear Anakin speak during a meeting, while others we never hear speak.

This is, of course, only taking the movies into account to keep things consistent.

 

Yes, I know. My point was that Anakin may have believed himself to be ready, even when he wasn't. He'd killed a Sith Lord (that had managed to defeat his own Master) and saved the Supreme Chancellor. I imagine he felt his acts were enough to earn him the rank. The problem with Anakin is that he never learned mastery over himself (as has been pointed out before) and he focuses only on what he has accomplished in the war instead of ways of improving himself and his discipline.

Perhaps, but why have them on the Council in the first place then? It's a decision-making body, so it seems odd that they wouldn't have a voice in discussions. At least, that's how it comes across to me.

Obi-Wan: The only reason the Council has approved your appointment is because the Chancellor trusts you....Anakin, I am on your side. I did not want to put you in this situation ..."

You think so? I mean, Obi-Wan is saying that the only reason Anakin is on the Council is because Palpatine trusts him and then apologizes to him for putting him into a "situation" that turns out to be spying on the Chancellor. I don't think I'm making huge leaps of logic here, but you're free to keep your opinion. I think the film substantiates mine though: the Council put Anakin on the Council to get him to spy on Palpatine.

Despite their methods, I believe the Council has good intentions at heart. They want to protect the Republic and are (rightly) suspicious of Palpatine. The problem is that they should have told Anakin that he was being appointed because he's close to Palpatine and would be asked to spy on him. Once Anakin is on the Council as Palpatine's representative, it gives the Council the perfect excuse to have Anakin spend time with and spy on Palpatine on the pretense that they care to keep his "representative" informed.

But Anakin didn't put himself into this situation. As far as he was concerned, he would be a direct line from Palpatine to the Council and get to sit on the Council and be a Master. There was no subterfuge involved at all. The Council knew Anakin was coming in representing Palpatine. Then, of course, the Council had to complicate matters by telling him to spy on the Chancellor. What is Anakin supposed to do now? Can he even refuse an order from the Jedi Order's governing body? Can he back out without Palpatine becoming suspicious of why Anakin has rejected something he was so eager to, previously, obtain? The Jedi weren't honest when they accepted him. I agree that Anakin wasn't ready to be made a Master. But if he's not ready to be a Master, then they shouldn't have accepted him on the Council. They should have simply told Palpatine "no."

 

Anakins hurt feelings have nothing do with him doing his duty as a jedi.

 

That isn't my point. Yes, a Jedi should do his duty without letting personal distaste for an assignment get in the way. The problem here is that Anakin is acting as a spy -- a position that necessarily requires trust between himself and the Council as, if he's discovered, he must know that they will back him and protect him. But if Anakin feels alienated and distrusted, he's obviously going to question if what he's doing is worth it. It's extremely important that spies for an organization have a degree of loyalty to that organization. And the Council's actions, unfortunately, are only making Anakin's suspicions and dissatisfaction grow.

 

Actually, it does. It really, really, really does, because he's being put into a position where, with the slightest break in his relationship with the Council, he would betray them. This is about more than duty, and simply ranting about it is reductionist, sacrificing the big picture for a marginal detail. The Jedi Council's objective was to get information on Palpatine. They needed a spy. They needed a spy that Palpatine trusted. They also needed a spy they could trust, and one who trusted them. Anakin fulfilled every criterion but the last two. He is perhaps unique in that position, so there really are no suitable substitutes. By snubbing Anakin, they willfully sacrificed any vestige of trust he had remaining in their authority. Excluding him isn't about feelings, not entirely. I's about pragmatism - Anakin wasn't going to put his reputation, friendship, freedom, and life on the line for an organization that viewed him more like crap stuck to their boot heels. Even if he did act like a jerkass, and the Council thought him such, the question here is not whether he actually was, but what he perceived the Jedi thought of him.

 

Been reading through the post.

To call the Jedi as acting traitorous for spying on Palpatine, you also have the call the Rebel Alliance traitorous for their actions. You could consider the Jedi to be the first Rebels.

The Jedi felt Palpatine was abusing his power. He was already staying as Chancellor for longer than his term limit. Since the Senate continued to give Palpatine more political powers, the Jedi felt the Senate was in league with Palpatine and could not be trusted. They saw the freedom of the Republic in jeopardy and the needed to act. If Palpatine would not step down after the death of General Grievous, the Jedi were going to force him too. In the cut scenes of ROTS, we see some Senators were against Palpatine too, but they felt that they couldn't trust the Jedi. Padme thought she could bring the Jedi onto their side, and that is why she asked Anakin about if he thought the Republic was becoming "evil", but he responded that she was acting like a Separatist. This more "confirmed" the Senators suspicions that the Jedi were on Palpatine's side. This kept both sides from communicating and planning with each other. And I think Palpatine wanted the Jedi to try something, so then he could justify his use of Order 66. I'm sure the destruction of the Jedi caused the loyal Senators to pause and rethink their plans, and not rush into anything.

As for Anakin's attitude of not receiving the rank of Jedi Master, that was because he was greedy. Isn't that a trait of the Dark Side. He was abusing his powers, not following the Jedi rules, and committed an act of genocide against the Sand People. He wanted everything his way. Didn't Padme say to him to leave the Order and they could raise their child together. But he wanted to be a Jedi too. And Anakin blamed the Jedi for his actions, but Obi-Wan corrected him and said that he has done everything himself, and that he is to blame for all that he has done.

 

Their actions were traitorous - necessary, and ultimately for the best, but still extremely illegal. I'm not saying the Jedi should not have ousted Palpatine. They absolutely should have, and they probably should have done so before he was a wartime Chancellor, when he had extended his term and suspended elections a full two years before Geonosis. But because their actions were necessary, yet illegal, a certain amount of pragmatism is needed. Whether Anakin was greedy, spoiled, selfish, petulant, undeserving, or immature is frankly irrelevant, because he was at the crux of the Jedi Council's plan, and as such, his personality flaws were secondary to what he could bring the Council on Palpatine.

The Council did not see it this way. At times, it seems that they're more concerned with Anakin being a model Jedi than they are with making sure he completes a mission that could decide the fate of the entire Jedi Order and Republic. They are more concerned that he shows respect to the Jedi, respect to their traditions, rather than focusing on whether his relationship with the Council remains, if not friendly, then workable. They left all pragmatism behind. If bribing Anakin with the title of Jedi Master was what they needed in order to keep him within the Council's fold, so be it. The success of the mission and the survival of the Order are more important than tradition.

 

I think the label of traitor comes after the fact. If you lose you're a traitor, if you win you're a patriot. It's all dependent on results. Obviously the Jedi didn't see their actions as traitorous, they saw Palpatine as tyrannical. Obviously Palpatine saw it the other way and he won, thus the Jedi were labeled traitors.

 

I always thought Palpatine extended his term during the war. I guess the Separatist Crisis had started and he used this to get the Senate to extend his term. The Jedi would have no choice about this, I suppose.

As for bribing Anakin, why should the Jedi Council have to do that? Did they have to bribe Jedi to fight in the war? Are Jedi bribed to go out on diplomatic missions? If they give into Anakin once, he could still keep going and ask for more bribes and favors. And this could cause a break down in the rank structure of the Jedi. How would the other Jedi feel if they watch Anakin get away with bribing the Council. The Order could end up with Knights demanding to be Masters, and Padawans demanding to be Knights.

 

So it's better that the Jedi all ended up dead?

I don't understand the focus on Anakin's behavior here. He behaved badly, at least in the Council chambers. We all agree on that. Why continue to beat that dead horse? That isn't the issue here. I'm going to ask the question again, the same one that FalorWindrider has been asking in his posts, and no one has answered it: did the Jedi want the mission of spying on the Chancellor accomplished, or were they more interested in sticking to the way they had always done things? IOW, was "the Jedi way"--a phrase that gets thrown about a lot, usually in the context of "that's not the Jedi way," but never defined so I'm not sure what "the Jedi way" is exactly--worth the extermination of the Order? I would like to think that it wasn't.

All the other platitudes about how Anakin "should have" behaved, don't matter here. Did. They. Want. The. Job. Done? Are we going to pretend that the Jedi Council didn't know that Anakin was cocky and immature? Mace and Yoda weren't that stupid. So, again: did they want cocky, immature Anakin to do the job? Or did they want some humble, mature, nonexistent Anakin to do it so that they could assign the mission their way?

Yes, they could have "placated" Anakin a bit and maybe they would have...*gasp*...lived to tell about it. Or they could have complained about how Anakin was arrogant and unpredictable and they were going to stick to their ways--and left him loyal to Palpatine. Which is what happened.

And are we really having a discussion along the lines of "The other Jedi wouldn't like it if the Council made exceptions for Anakin! It wouldn't be fair!" Sounds like these hypothetical other Jedi might have a bit of a petty immature streak themselves.

As far as Anakin "deserving" the Master rank: I don't know what criteria the Jedi Council used for promotion, but let's say that you all are right, that the criteria involved emotional maturity and control--in which case, I agree with you, Anakin did not deserve the Master rank. The Jedi Council still had a choice. They obviously did not want to promote Anakin to the Council, therefore, they could have said "no." Both Obi-Wan and Yoda indicated that the Council did have a choice, and really, what would Palpatine have done to them if they had said "no"? Had them killed? Oh, wait... Or they could have made Anakin a regular member of the Council, not some second-class "special" member.