Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by DBrennan3333, Nov 7, 2004.

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  1. nathanelm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2001
    OMG, it's as if you understood nothing of what I said....

    OK, one by one:

    You don't understand what I mean when I say "cinematically equivalent". So I'll put it this way: The analogy IS the same because Lucas could have easily decided that Boba would have been the archetype for the clones while conceiving his character just as much as he could have decided that Greedo would have been the archetype for the clones while conceiving his character - hence, the arbitrarity. I can't spell that out more, hope that makes you understand my meaning.

    Not really. When conceiving the character of Boba Fett, Lucas did consider tying him in to the stormtroopers. He didn't do that with Greedo.


    What I was trying to say is that - Yes, he didn't choose to tie in Greedo, but he COULD - and that would have the same effect on the movies had he done so. Moreover, HAD he done so, we would have been arguing the opposite way: I would claim that he could have chosen Boba and you'd be telling me that he chose to tie in Greedo to the stormtroopers since the beginning of time!

    By the way, Boba Fett got his NAME when his action figure was manufactured for ROTJ (it was in the trivia of Star Wars: Behind The Magic, so that's official info).

    And this is significant...how?


    Read the next sentence and you'll know!

    You wanna tell me that an unnamed character was chosen to be the clone archetype during ESB???

    No, Lucas is saying that he considered tying him in to the stormtroopers when he invented him, which by the way was before ESB.


    When a character has no name it usually means that the author doesn't care much about it let alone think that it would serve as a major theme! I mean, if Greedo had a name in ANH (something which Boba DIDN'T have on ESB) without serving as a major theme, why should Boba have none, if he was conceived as the origin of a major theme the way you claim?

    Don't fall for those marketing tricks, please!

    What marketing tricks?


    Enough said, I'm starting to think it's a prank.
  2. nathanelm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2001
    Don't forget, Walt Whitman tinkered with 'Leaves of Grass' many times after it had been originally published but before his death. An artist has a right to their own work, after all.

    That's irrelevant. I haven't complained a single time that Lucas changed his movies. I only complained on HOW he did it.

    I have to agree with Shelley. If all Lucas wanted was to please fans, he would have had a film with less plot and character development, and more lightsaber combat.

    I never met a single SW fan who didn't like the non-combat scenes, nor disliked the character development.

    Or Lucas would have released the original versions of the OT, rather than the versions he wanted fans to see.

    Lucas can get as many petitions and protests as we'll ever send him. Rick McCallum (which I don't think has got a shred of honesty in him, and that's why I believe GL uses him as a puppet) once said that the polls they've conducted in 99' showed that Jar-Jar was the fans' favorite character. Got my point? If the marketing department tells Lucas that the Special Edition would sell better right now, then that's what he does, becuase to him the fans prefer the SE and that's it. Maybe in the future he'll produce the OT, who knows? After all, if Lucas wanted SOOO much to HIDE his original piece of work, then why did he rerelease the OT "one last time" in Oct. 95, right before the release of the SE? That's right! Because he doesn't REALLY want to hide those films but simply because he wanted the fans to own both versions. What I have to say for him is - why not do that move again, this time on DVD?

    As for the Boba/Greedo debate... Yes, Lucas could have used Greedo rather than Boba. But trying to analyze his intentions leads us into the realm of intentional fallacy. Lucas might have used Boba as a bridge between the series because he liked the character.

    I never understood what's there to like. He's cool and everything but he was conceived for the Holiday Special... (which now GL boycotts BTW) Come to think of it, putting Boba in ESB was also a marketing method, because now (in 1980) people know that "ESB will have that COOL guy from the Holiday Special - Let's go see him!!"
  3. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    As a matter of interest, how was Boba described in the original credits of ESB? Was he just something like Bounty Hunter #3, or something like that? [face_thinking]
  4. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Come to think of it, putting Boba in ESB was also a marketing method, because now (in 1980) people know that "ESB will have that COOL guy from the Holiday Special - Let's go see him!!"

    Really then how about ever one that saw TESB with out ever seeing the Holiday Special? I never saw the Holiday Special. So the whole thing with Fett means nothing in the end.

    He was added in to show where he came from. That and the fact that Jango was the one used for the clones which late they become Strom Troopers. So people seeing a look character in the Holiday Special has nothing to do with anything.
  5. Darth_Mimic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    "If the marketing department tells Lucas that the Special Edition would sell better right now, then that's what he does, becuase to him the fans prefer the SE and that's it. Maybe in the future he'll produce the OT, who knows? After all, if Lucas wanted SOOO much to HIDE his original piece of work, then why did he rerelease the OT "one last time" in Oct. 95, right before the release of the SE? That's right! Because he doesn't REALLY want to hide those films but simply because he wanted the fans to own both versions. What I have to say for him is - why not do that move again, this time on DVD?"

    Unfortunately for my paycheck, there's a new release of the films every time the technology allows an improvement to be made in the films. That's why the OT came out in '95. There probably will be a six film release after RotS is released. But keeping up with the technology does not mean that Lucas is some heartless corporation. Look at the movement from record to 8 track to cassette to cd to mp3. Are you suggesting that when a band like Queen rereleases an album to appear in the new format that it is an example of them taking advantage of us, the audience? And whether or not you agree, Lucas fought to keep control over which version he presented to fans. I'd rather see the film he wanted to make than a film that was 'tested' with focus groups.

    "I never met a single SW fan who didn't like the non-combat scenes, nor disliked the character development."

    gezvader complains about it earlier in this thread. loco_for_lucas complains about it in a TPM thread. Some fans prefer the sci fi combat elements to the other side of it. But that's their opinion...
  6. nathanelm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2001
    Really then how about ever one that saw TESB with out ever seeing the Holiday Special? I never saw the Holiday Special. So the whole thing with Fett means nothing in the end.

    He was added in to show where he came from. That and the fact that Jango was the one used for the clones which late they become Strom Troopers. So people seeing a look character in the Holiday Special has nothing to do with anything.


    You didn't understand me then. Sorry, maybe it's my English. Anyway, what I meant was that BACK IN 1980 FOR THE PEOPLE WERE GROWNING-UP THEN, putting in someone from the Holiday Special was a cool marketing tool. It is true that nowadays Boba exists in AOTC to show where he came from. What I'm trying to prove is, however, that GL didn't HAVE to do it, that he could have chosen Greedo just as well, and that the reason that he didn't - was because Boba sold better.
  7. nathanelm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2001
    Unfortunately for my paycheck, there's a new release of the films every time the technology allows an improvement to be made in the films. That's why the OT came out in '95. There probably will be a six film release after RotS is released. But keeping up with the technology does not mean that Lucas is some heartless corporation. Look at the movement from record to 8 track to cassette to cd to mp3. Are you suggesting that when a band like Queen rereleases an album to appear in the new format that it is an example of them taking advantage of us, the audience? And whether or not you agree, Lucas fought to keep control over which version he presented to fans. I'd rather see the film he wanted to make than a film that was 'tested' with focus groups.

    Then what is the technological difference between the release of 97' SE's and 2000 SE's? I bought it, BTW, JUST and I mean JUST for the Episode 2 preview. Yeah, I'm THAT kind of fan....
  8. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    Just like Vader - he was popular in ANH, so Lucas upped his screen time in the next film, promoting him from menacing heavy to galactic warlord, leading to some uncertainty about his rank within the Empire.
  9. Darth_Mimic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Good point. I'd have to say that it was put out to satisfy fan demand...
  10. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    You didn't understand me then. Sorry, maybe it's my English. Anyway, what I meant was that BACK IN 1980 FOR THE PEOPLE WERE GROWNING-UP THEN, putting in someone from the Holiday Special was a cool marketing tool.

    That's funny because to this day most if not a good number of people I talked with wanted to see the movie not for Fett being in the HS but because of Vader, Luke, Han, and Leia.

    As cool as Fett looks this also gose for Maul. They are to me nothing more then the punks who live and die like punks. Either way a lot of people saw TESB not because of Fett but because of what Vader said to Luke and so on.

    Fet would be item 100 on what people wanted to see in TESB. He is so far down that list it's funny.
  11. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    What I was trying to say is that - Yes, he didn't choose to tie in Greedo, but he COULD - and that would have the same effect on the movies had he done so. Moreover, HAD he done so, we would have been arguing the opposite way: I would claim that he could have chosen Boba and you'd be telling me that he chose to tie in Greedo to the stormtroopers since the beginning of time!

    What is it you're ranting about? You're getting all worked up over something Lucas didn't do (put Greedo in the PT and connect him to the clones) and then citing something he did do (put Boba Fett in the PT and connect him to the clones)? I pointed out that Lucas always thought about connecting Boba Fett to the stormtroopers, and you went off on some tangent about his name.

    Read the next sentence and you'll know!

    I read the next sentence. I still don't see how it's significant.

    When a character has no name it usually means that the author doesn't care much about it let alone think that it would serve as a major theme!

    Does it? Or does it mean he simply has no name at that point? Lucas changes characters' and places' names all the time. Besides which, how do you know Boba Fett wasn't always his name, and that it was only revealed when the ROTJ figure came out?

    I mean, if Greedo had a name in ANH (something which Boba DIDN'T have on ESB) without serving as a major theme, why should Boba have none, if he was conceived as the origin of a major theme the way you claim?

    Huh?

    Enough said, I'm starting to think it's a prank.

    And I'm starting to think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing.
  12. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    I still want to know what Boba Fett was called on the ESB original credits - does anyone know? And I can't remember if he had a name in the ESB novel or not [face_thinking]
  13. nathanelm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2001
    What is it you're ranting about? You're getting all worked up over something Lucas didn't do (put Greedo in the PT and connect him to the clones) and then citing something he did do (put Boba Fett in the PT and connect him to the clones)? I pointed out that Lucas always thought about connecting Boba Fett to the stormtroopers, and you went off on some tangent about his name.

    Forget it. I know that "Lucas always thought about connecting Boba Fett to the stormtroopers" and all I tried to say was that it wouldn't matter whether he wanted to connect Bobba or Greedo in order to prove his choices are arbitrary, but you just don't seem to get through me. I thought it was simple...

    Read the next sentence and you'll know!

    I read the next sentence. I still don't see how it's significant.


    Well, if you read the next sentence, then how come you asked: how do you know Boba Fett wasn't always his name, and that it was only revealed when the ROTJ figure came out? when I SPECIFICALLY pointed out that it's official info from "Star Wars: Behind The Magic"?

    I don't know what do you do while writing in this board but you clearly don't read everything that I write. I suggest you fully understand what I mean before replying or ask me to elaborate on a point or anything. Just don't fall under the category I've described in my signature below.
  14. nathanelm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2001
    I still want to know what Boba Fett was called on the ESB original credits - does anyone know? And I can't remember if he had a name in the ESB novel or not.

    Interesting question. Anyone?
  15. nathanelm Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 17, 2001
    Good point. I'd have to say that it was put out to satisfy fan demand...

    Darth Mimic, just wanted to say that I admire the intellect you've shown in this conversation. Concise, precise, and very educated opinion. By the way, what do you teach?
  16. Darth_Mimic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Thank you for the kind words. Right now, I'm a primary/junior supply teacher. I also have a masters in English Lit., and t.a.'d a course in media. When i go back for my PhD, I want to write a thesis on Star Wars.
  17. Sith_Sensei__Prime Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2000
    star 5
    Mimic,
    What would your thesis be in regards to Star Wars?
  18. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Forget it. I know that "Lucas always thought about connecting Boba Fett to the stormtroopers" and all I tried to say was that it wouldn't matter whether he wanted to connect Bobba or Greedo in order to prove his choices are arbitrary, but you just don't seem to get through me. I thought it was simple...

    Was it? Because it seemed to me you were saying that Lucas lied about always connecting Boba Fett to the stormtroopers, offering up his action figure in ROTJ as proof.

    Well, if you read the next sentence, then how come you asked: how do you know Boba Fett wasn't always his name, and that it was only revealed when the ROTJ figure came out? when I SPECIFICALLY pointed out that it's official info from "Star Wars: Behind The Magic"?

    You SPECIFICALLY pointed out this:

    By the way, Boba Fett got his NAME when his action figure was manufactured for ROTJ (it was in the trivia of Star Wars: Behind The Magic, so that's official info).

    I'm asking, what exactly does that prove? Maybe he lacked a name up until his action figure was manufactured, or perhaps he had a name, it just wasn't announced until then. Regardless, you seem to think that if he didn't have a name, or at least not the name Boba Fett, until his action figure was manufactured for ROTJ, it means that he wasn't supposed to be connected to the stormtroopers. I'm wondering why that is -- why him having a name was vital to his being connected to the stormtroopers.

    I don't know what do you do while writing in this board but you clearly don't read everything that I write. I suggest you fully understand what I mean before replying or ask me to elaborate on a point or anything. Just don't fall under the category I've described in my signature below.

    I read what you wrote, and I understood most of it. What I didn't understand was what I was asking you to clarify.
  19. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Hmm, I'd like to say I see your points, but I think that you're deliberately being obtuse.

    Quite frankly, and this isn't meant to be rude, but I think I'm doing a pretty good job of keeping track of your ideas. Something which you don't seem to be doing.

    Threepio's character is one that tends to make bad jokes while under fire. He knows when to be solemn (at a funeral, or when talking to Ewok children), and when to panic (arena).

    Indeed , that's how he is. But your original contention was that his unseen rebuild was a contrast to Anakin, when I pointed out that this was poorly developed (since we didn't see it) you pointed to his 'development' in the arena scene (in which he is un-built), therefore contradicting your "contrast" about him being rebuilt. How can you use a scene where he is dismantled to prove development of the rebuild concept?

    Well, it stands alone when compared to other (non Star Wars) films

    And what about Star Wars films ?

    It doesn't stand alone at all.

    The end result is different - the stimulus is the same.

    Not at all.
    Luke is raised by foster parents until he's an adult.
    Anakin is raised by his mother until he's 9.
    anakin is trained in the Force from age 9.
    Luke from age 18.
    Anakin is raised in a bustling spaceport then across the galaxy.
    Luke grows up in the middle of nowhere.

    Those are big differences. Of course there are similarities, but it is nonsense to say they develop exactly the same way.

    Yes. But something created by a collaborative effort is post modern

    That would be just about every feature film ever made then. You should have said that in the begining and I could've told you it's not a theory I'd ever agree with.

    I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you aren't related to me.

    Don't worry, if you were I wouldn't mention it ;)

    The Witches gave him the idea before Lady M ever did. And he was the one who actually decided to commit regicide. Lady M couldn't kill for him; he had to commit the crime himself.

    Macbeth did it for his own gain, not for the benefit of society as you claimed.

    Not guilty enough to never do something like that again under similar circumstances.

    Well if he feels guilty then he doesn't always feel like he's doing the right thing as you claimed.

    See, now you're just making provocative statements without any real support behind them. How have I left out the Huston and Shakespeare?

    Well here's your ammended assertion:

    "I believe taht Lucas is showing us is teh development of the protagonist, whether he 'intends' to or not.

    No mention of Huston or shakespeare in there. If you want to ammend it again, fine, but don't tell me I'm making provocative statements etc.

    I thought it was clear. I see the film as a retelling of the traditional hero myth, influenced by the film noir genre, which has a post modern plot twist where the hero becomes the villain of the piece.

    Great. I agree. doesn't make it a stand alone piece of postmodernism tho.

    The elements that make up the story redefine the boundaries of the film genre by making the villain a hero

    You mean "the hero a villain" ? Well assuming they're watched in order.
    I've seen it before - Vito Corleone in Godfather II. I've read plenty of comics where a heroic character is hit by tragedy and becomes a villain. And I'm sure none of it's original, it's probably in Greek myths quite a lot.

    So here's what I think -
    Your theory about 3po's rebuild contrasting with anakin's struggle is a poor one, it's not seen and your attempts to shore up the idea don't work .

    Your idea that Anakin is exactly like Macbeth just doesn't hold up, there's too many differences in devlopment and characterization.

    Your assessment of anakin as someone who always believes he is right I cannot agree with, his confession over the slaughter shows his guilt and you haven't denied his guilt.

    And your claim that it stands alone simply doesn't work, for a sta
  20. Darth_Mimic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Here we go again...

    "Indeed , that's how he is. But your original contention was that his unseen rebuild was a contrast to Anakin, when I pointed out that this was poorly developed (since we didn't see it) you pointed to his 'development' in the arena scene (in which he is un-built), therefore contradicting your "contrast" about him being rebuilt. How can you use a scene where he is dismantled to prove development of the rebuild concept?"

    I've answered this. I was talking about the character over the course of the film, not just the physical rebuilding. His (Threepio) character does change from what we see at the beginning of the film to what we see at the end.

    "And what about Star Wars films ?

    It doesn't stand alone at all."

    Since it's part of a multi film movement, it would be strange to say it stands alone from them. It is very different from the OT films and TPM, as the darker story is the compressed development of anti-Luke, though.

    "Of course there are similarities, but it is nonsense to say they develop exactly the same way."

    The major elements are the same. As for maturity, Anakin at nine is easily Luke's equal at the 19 or so that he is in ANH. And Mos Espa isn't that much different from Mos Eisley. Their lifestyles were remarkeably similar.

    "That would be just about every feature film ever made then. You should have said that in the begining and I could've told you it's not a theory I'd ever agree with."

    I thought I did say it. Your agreement was never something I wanted. Actually, after reading some of your other posts in other threads, I would say that I'd rather have you disagree with me.

    "Macbeth did it for his own gain, not for the benefit of society as you claimed."

    Macbeth justified it to himself by saying it would also benefit others. Like Anakin justifies his desire for power saying he would be able to stop people from dying if he was powerful enough.

    "Well if he feels guilty then he doesn't always feel like he's doing the right thing as you claimed."

    Feeling guilt after making what you perceive is a hard decision is natural; it doesn't mean that you think you aren't right. It's like any military action that kills a civillian. Regrettable, causes guilt, but still necessary.

    "No mention of Huston or shakespeare in there. If you want to ammend it again, fine, but don't tell me I'm making provocative statements etc."

    Lucas doesn't need to overtly say he is inspired by Huston or Shakespeare in order for a person to see the intertextual connection. If Lucas did say it overtly it wouldn't make any difference in a critical interpretation (back into the 'death of the author' - we've covered this ground).

    "Great. I agree. doesn't make it a stand alone piece of postmodernism tho."

    Actually, that's exactly what makes it postmodern. It incorporates elements of postmodern storytelling (intertextuality, deconstruction, satire, multiple narrative viewpoints, collective creative proces, made after the modern period ended, etc.) which is what determines whether or not it is postmodern.

    "You mean "the hero a villain" ? Well assuming they're watched in order.
    I've seen it before - Vito Corleone in Godfather II. I've read plenty of comics where a heroic character is hit by tragedy and becomes a villain. And I'm sure none of it's original, it's probably in Greek myths quite a lot."

    In series order, Anakin begins as a hero, becomes a villain, and finally redeems himself. Over the course of AotC, he begins as a hero, becomes a villain (kills Tuskens) and completes the film AS A VILLAIN. Of course, he happens to believe that he is acting as a hero, but we, the audience, know that his actions are now self serving - the dark side.

    "Your theory about 3po's rebuild contrasting with anakin's struggle is a poor one, it's not seen and your attempts to shore up the idea don't work ."

    Gone over this.

    "Your idea that Anakin is exactly like Macbeth just doesn't hold up, there's too many differences in devlopment and characterization."

    It's intertextual. It doesn
  21. Sith_Sensei__Prime Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2000
    star 5
    In series order, Anakin begins as a hero, becomes a villain, and finally redeems himself. Over the course of AotC, he begins as a hero, becomes a villain (kills Tuskens) and completes the film AS A VILLAIN...


    then many words later...

    Not once does Anakin say "I'm wrong for doing it." Not once does he say "I'm sorry for the deaths." He says, "They're animals, and I slaugtered them like animals." The only thing Anakin is sorry for in that scene is that his mother is dead. But we've gone over that.



    So, in your opinion, is the audience suppose to feel Anakin is a villain or an empathetic figure whose actions where justified by his tragic loss? Additionally, please elaborate for the late comers to this thread on how Anakin becomes a villain by films end. Please also explain how Anakin is a hero at the beginning of Attack of the Clones.

    ANH did all of those things, yes. Every Star Wars film does all of those things. It doesn't take away from the achievements of the other films to recognize the achievements in AotC.


    Some feel the same way towards Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and Showgirls.

  22. Darth_Mimic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin starts as a hero in AotC because he is following the orders of the Jedi Council. His mission is to protect Padme, which he does. There is a certain amount of self serving in his actions, but still, Anakin is not being greedy or spiteful - he's not yet on the Dark Side.

    Now when he slaughters the Tuskens, he is engaging in Dark Side behaviour. Not that he wasn't slightly justified, but he was acting out of anger (anger, fear, agression... the Dark Side are they...). It's up to the audience member whether or not Anakin is sypathetic at this point. But his first attack on Dooku was also Dark Side...

    So, it is possible to empathize with Anakin. But by this point, he has gone over to the Dark Side, most likely without realizing it.
  23. Darth_Mimic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Oh, and B & T was a most excellent post modern film. Showgirls was campy melodrama at its worst.
  24. Sith_Sensei__Prime Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2000
    star 5
    You could understand how some people might feel following orders and being a body guard is all that heroic, right? It's not really something legends are made of, ya know?

    And some feel Anakin was tapping into the Dark Side a much as Kenobi did right after Darth Maul killed Qui Gon. Both appear to be justified killings as neither became Lords of the Sith soon thereafter.

    Moreover, Anakin attacked Darth Tyrannus in the same manner Kenobi attacked Darth Maul, and it's very doubtful Kenobi was considered a villain at the end of The Phantom Menace as you described Anakin to be at the end of Attack of the Clones.

    Therefore, it's difficult for some to see Anakin as a villain at films end when his actions where very similar to Obi-Wan in Episode One.


    And at best Showgirls could be consider the most underated epic ever created as it's a multi-genre film that could be universally understood in any country and is as timeless any stories every told. ;)
  25. The_Nameless_One Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 4
    If he's not a bad guy, then he must be a "good man" then ;)
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