Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?

what has Anakin done thus far that can be labled as "HEROIC"?

Winning the Boonta Eve
Destroying the TF Control Ship
Saving Obi-Wans life

Thats 3 major acts already

^
Odd, I didn't see all those things in Episode II[/b]. I did see Anakin slice and dice a Tusken Raider; defy the Jedi Order and get married; act arrogant and self involved (and not in a good way).

Thats odd indeed

I could swear at one point, Obi-Wans arm and leg were severly sliced up - and then Dooku raised his saber and thrust it downward

And i could swear i could hear someone screaming, jump from one corner of the room to the other from a sitting position, manage to ignite his saber and block Dookus attempt

Damn, where did i see all of that i wonder?

I agree with the original poster. AOTC was not a very good film. I liked it (not loved it) because I'm a SW fan, but it wasn't a good movie. And it doesn't appear that the casula movie goer was overly impressed with it. Whether or not they hated it, I don't know...

Yeah, I might have seen Anakin battle with Dooku, but I didn't see ALL that stuff like "Winning the Boonta Eve" and "Destroying the TF Control Ship" with in the context of Episode II. Totally odd that I missed this in AOTC.

You have to understand, although you don't have to accept, the fact that these "Star Wars" pictures are designed to present character and plot arcs over the trajectory of 3-6 films. I actually like it that way; many do not. That is their concern, not mine. People forget that these films are not exactly 'Dreyer' material. If you want deep, involved, probing, psychological detail, go and watch "Ordet". Who actually attends a "Star Wars" film for psychological insight? I am more or less content that Lucas has given these characters an attribute or two and then moved on from there. It's very convenient for people to overlook the lack of character depth in the OT as well. The last time I checked, Luke, Han Solo, and Princess Leia were not particularly interesting characters. They were well played and I liked them, but basically 2-dimensional. Hmmmmmm.......

Well, we know Anakin had to save Obi Wan from falling to his death (thanks, Xam) and from a nest of Gundarks (according to himself). He does do a few heroic things... he's just not always... nice about it.

Don't forget the "aim right above the fuel cells!". He got a commendation from Obi Wan

Also that he (and of course others facing sure death in the arena), went along with the "we will not be hostages to be bartered with" Imagine, Anakin saying "my give up!"

Yeah, I might have seen Anakin battle with Dooku, but I didn't see ALL that stuff like "Winning the Boonta Eve" and "Destroying the TF Control Ship" with in the context of Episode II. Totally odd that I missed this in AOTC.

I never said he did that in Episode II

Someone simply asked which HEROIC things ANAKIN has done, and forgive if i'm mistaken - but that IS Anakin who does those things, right?

Going after Obi-Wan in the Coruscant chase
Jumping out of his speeder in the middle of Coruscant
Freeing his mother from her bonds (no matter what he did afterwards, that was heroic)
Attempting to save Obi-Wan (might've failed horribly, but it was heroic)
Saving Padme in the arena
"aim right above the fuel cells"
Saving Obi-Wan from Dooku

Green_Destiny_Sword said:Nathanelm?I have read the last 4 pages and you make excellent arguments. You are very skilled at making reasoned arguments. I completely agree with your points.

Thanks for your kind words. I'm glad to see that not only am I not seen as a basher (which I'm not), but there is someone that actually agrees with me.

(Sorry I was off for 4 days, BTW.)

I understand that these "Star Wars" pictures, in particular, the prequels, are designed to present characters and plot arcs over three films. That being said, it's not that far off to say that the it leaves each individual film fragmented. I don't agree that Luke, Han and Leia were two dimensional and not particulary interesting. Afterall, it was those characters that launched the phenomenon.

Anakin may done those thing in The Phantom Menace, but this is an Attack of the Clones thread, right?

Jumping out of his speer in the middles of Coruscant was hated by Kenobi. Addtionally, those types of actions Obi-Wan noted, "May be the death of me."

Freeing his mother and having an emotional attachment is against the Jedi Order. Additionally, it was defiant of the Obi-Wan's orders which was to stay on Naboo and protect the queen.

Anakin seem bent on avenging the Jedi killed by Dooku, as he said as much. If he was truly heroic, Anakin would have worked together as Obi-Wan instructed to attack Dooku, much like Kenobi and Qui Gon did against Darth Maul, instead of just charging him. Anakin paid the price for his insolence and arrogance by losing his hand.

Why was AOTC not loved by the public and media?

Because Hollywood is corrupt. When Hollywood has a problem, the world has a problem. Therefore, the world is corrupt as well

Jumping out of his speer in the middles of Coruscant was hated by Kenobi. Addtionally, those types of actions Obi-Wan noted, "May be the death of me."

Freeing his mother and having an emotional attachment is against the Jedi Order. Additionally, it was defiant of the Obi-Wan's orders which was to stay on Naboo and protect the queen.

Anakin seem bent on avenging the Jedi killed by Dooku, as he said as much. If he was truly heroic, Anakin would have worked together as Obi-Wan instructed to attack Dooku, much like Kenobi and Qui Gon did against Darth Maul, instead of just charging him. Anakin paid the price for his insolence and arrogance by losing his hand.

So "heroic" actions only apply from the perspective of the Jedi?

Kenobi is the standard who decides what is heroic or not?

Anakin freed his mother, made her complete - he allowed her to die, much like Luke does to Vader - that was all wrong because it went against the Jedis order?

Kenobi also didn't believe in Lukes belief that Anakin could be turned - so i guess that whole redeeming part wasn't heroic to you...

So are you saying that going against the Jedi Order and being insolent and arrogant heroic?

If the Jedi aren't the good guys, who are?

The Jedi are the good guys, they're blinded by their own attachment to their code and generally in the force - but they are the good guys, yes....

....but they are not a red line that outlines whats heroic and whats not.

To say Anakin wasn't heroic in going after his mother - is, as a human, just pretty weird to me.

He wasn't being a perfect Jedi - but he was being a perfect son and saviourto his mother.

She was suffering, and he literally freed her bonds, he completed her and she could finally escape her sufferings and die (again, much like Luke does to Anakin in RotJ).

You're actually telling me that wasn't heroic?

And again, was Luke being heroic by choosing to believe in Anakin instead of his mentor? Yes or no...

Being a good son isn't quite the same thing as destroying the Death Star or defeating an Evil Emperor. Moreover, being a good son is a common and daily event. Besides, he failed and then took out his anger on Tusken Raiders... not just the men, but the women and children too. He slaughter them like animals. Since when is it heroic to fail?

The Jedi Code was designed to prevent Padawans from slaughting, as the Force should only be use for defense and knowledge. Never attack. That sounds like a pretty good redline to me.

Kenobi wanted Luke to face Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi. Luke did.

We'll see that Obi-Wan will try and bring back Anakin from the Dark Side in the next episode but only fail. With that experience in mind, Kenobi felt Vader was more machine than man, twisted and evil. Even Vader said the name Anakin had no meaning. From Obi-Wan's point of view, he gave Luke the best advice possible, as the good man that was once his father no longer exists.

And again, was Luke being heroic by choosing to believe in Anakin instead of his mentor? Yes or no...

No. Luke was heroic because he did not give into his hate and anger, like Anakin did to the Tusken Raiders. Luke is heroic because he followed the Jedi Code, the redline that outlines whats heroic and whats not.

Being a good son isn't quite the same thing as destroying the Death Star or defeating an Evil Emperor. Moreover, being a good son is a common and daily event. Besides, he failed and then took out his anger on Tusken Raiders... not just the men, but the women and children too. He slaughter them like animals. Since when is it heroic to fail?

Where did i say that?

He was being a perfect son in allowing his mother not to live in pain anymore - how is that NOT heroic?

He was being a incredibly confused, frustrated and outright evil son in slaughtering the tribe

Thats the whole point behind Anakin - he's a hero who cannot control himself, that scene perfectly outlines that.

The Jedi Code was designed to prevent Padawans from slaughting, as the Force should only be use for defense and knowledge. Never attack. That sounds like a pretty good redline to me.

And where does the Jedi Code say what to do when you can see your mother suffering in pain everynight?

That's exactly the case with Anakin/the Jedi in these prequels, aside ffrom Gui-Gon, noone understands Anakin - and Anakin doesn't understand the Jedi.

Only through Luke does this happen.

No. Luke was heroic because he did not give into his hate and anger, like Anakin did to the Tusken Raiders. Luke is heroic because he followed the Jedi Code, the redline that outlines whats heroic and whats not.

Anakin did not give into hate and anger, he was perfectly under control and his obly objective was to get his mother out of the camp - he goes in these hurting noone....

heroic

....then she allows herself to die, Anakin completely misunderstands this (he wont understand till Jedi) and lashes out at the camp - unheroic

See?

Where did i say that?

Did I say you did say that? But when is it heroic to fail?

He was being a perfect son in allowing his mother not to live in pain anymore - how is that NOT heroic?

Common and daily events are generally not considered heroic. I've walked in many hospitals where sons don't want their mothers to live in pain. It's more a sympathetic act than heroic.

He was being a incredibly confused, frustrated and outright evil son in slaughtering the tribe

Thats the whole point behind Anakin - he's a hero who cannot control himself, that scene perfectly outlines that.

but then you say the following:

Anakin did not give into hate and anger, he was perfectly under control and his obly objective was to get his mother out of the camp - he goes in these hurting noone....

So which is it? Is Anakin confused, frustrated and outright evil or perfectly under control?

And where does the Jedi Code say what to do when you can see your mother suffering in pain everynight?

Anakin is fearful his mom is in pain and dieing. Fear leads to anger... Anger leads to hate... Hate leads to suffering.

That's exactly the case with Anakin/the Jedi in these prequels, aside ffrom Gui-Gon, noone understands Anakin - and Anakin doesn't understand the Jedi.

They understanding that with the loss of his Mother Anakin may give into the fear and hate and cause suffering..

Only through Luke does this happen.

Anakin did not give into hate and anger, he was perfectly under control and his obly objective was to get his mother out of the camp - he goes in these hurting noone....

heroic

but you said yourself that:

He was being a incredibly confused, frustrated and outright evil son in slaughtering the tribe

Thats the whole point behind Anakin - he's a hero who cannot control himself, that scene perfectly outlines that.

Again, I ask... so which is it? Is Anakin confused, frustrated and outright evil or perfectly under control?

....then she allows herself to die, Anakin completely misunderstands this (he wont understand till Jedi) and lashes out at the camp - unheroic

See?

I'm not sure what to see. First you must explain if Anakin is in control of his hate and anger or not. Your post is terribly confusing.

Did I say you did say that? But when is it heroic to fail?

He didn't fail, he went out there to save his mother and he did.

He failed to control his emotions afterwards.

Heroic act turns to unheroic act

Common and daily events are generally not considered heroic. I've walked in many hospitals where sons don't want their mothers to live in pain. It's more a sympathetic act than heroic.

Of course, but Anakin HELPS his mother ease her pain. Big difference, if a son went through trouble to find his mothers cure and then does - thats heroic, is it not?

but then you say the following:

So which is it? Is Anakin confused, frustrated and outright evil or perfectly under control?

Did you even read what i said?

He walked into that camp with ONE objective, to take his mother away from them - he went in there with control, he managed to control himself by sneaking in there and not raise any suspicion, he was in control by freeing her bonds and talking to her.

THEN she's "complete" and allows herself to die, THEN he becomes confused ("Why couldn't i save her?") and frustrated, he decides to take it all out on the tuskens, THEN he becomes evil.

He's at first heroic, a man with a clear purpose and THEN not, a man who has no control over what he does.

Anakin is fearful his mom is in pain and dieing. Fear leads to anger... Anger leads to hate... Hate leads to suffering.

And lo and behold - Obi-Wan has no idea how to handle Anakins fear for his mother, "Dreams Pass in Time", he completely skips past what Anakin is really feeling because he doesn't understand it.

And lo and behold, in Empire both Yoda and Kenobi immediately pull all the breaks when Luke has his vision - they finally understand.

They understanding that with the loss of his Mother Anakin may give into the fear and hate and cause suffering..

But they don't understand how to deal with Anakin and his mother, simply telling someone "fear is bad for you" isn't going to cut it. Anakin spend 9 years with his mother, that attachment is stronger than a line of a code.

That's exactly why Yoda never wanted Anakin to be trained, because he had grown past those barriers.

Only through Luke does this happen.

Anakin understands what being a Jedi is all about through Luke

Again, I ask... so which is it? Is Anakin confused, frustrated and outright evil or perfectly under control?

"sigh"

Anakin goes to save his mother: under control
Anakins mother dies: not under control

He didn't fail, he went out there to save his mother and he did.

His saved his mother? From what I could tell Shmi died. Therefore, he didn't save her.

He failed to control his emotions afterwards.
That's agreeable.

Heroic act turns to unheroic act

His attempt to save his mother is a failure and turns very unheroic.


Of course, but Anakin HELPS his mother ease her pain. Big difference, if a son went through trouble to find his mothers cure and then does - thats heroic, is it not?

It is not. Easing the pain is not saving a life, but rather aiding and comforting for the inevitable. Anakin failed to save her life. He made an attempt to be heroic but was unsucessful and therefore cannot be considered otherwise.

Did you even read what i said?

I did. I replied and said it was confusing.

He walked into that camp with ONE objective, to take his mother away from them - he went in there with control, he managed to control himself by sneaking in there and not raise any suspicion, he was in control by freeing her bonds and talking to her.

Now I see your point. It was not written as well in your previous post. Yes, this would fall under a mindful and willful attempt to be heroic but ended in failure.

THEN she's "complete" and allows herself to die, THEN he becomes confused ("Why couldn't i save her?") and frustrated, he decides to take it all out on the tuskens, THEN he becomes evil.

Great point. Anakin realized he failed as he couldn't save her.

He's at first heroic, a man with a clear purpose and THEN not, a man who has no control over what he does.

He's not heroic, thus "Why couldn't I save her?" and as a result of his failure to be heroic he slaughters Tusken Raiders.

And lo and behold - Obi-Wan has no idea how to handle Anakins fear for his mother, "Dreams Pass in Time", he completely skips past what Anakin is really feeling because he doesn't understand it.

Are sure about that? The Jedi seem to understand emotional attachment and thus remove "potential" Force Users at a very early age. To completely skip past this is something the Jedi would not do considering their protocol.


And lo and behold, in Empire both Yoda and Kenobi immediately pull all the breaks when Luke has his vision - they finally understand.

Finally understand or always did? Again, in The Phantom Menace the Jedi noted that Anakin's thoughts dwelled on his mother. They understood thoughts and visions.

But they don't understand how to deal with Anakin and his mother, simply telling someone "fear is bad for you" isn't going to cut it. Anakin spend 9 years with his mother, that attachment is stronger than a line of a code.

They totally understood and that is why they initially denied Anakin's training to become a Jedi. (i.e. "The Boy is too old.")

That's exactly why Yoda never wanted Anakin to be trained, because he had grown past those barriers.

See, even you illustrated the Jedi understood. For hundreds of years has Yoda trained Jedi, it's very doubtful we would not know how to deal.

Anakin understands what being a Jedi is all about through Luke

That he does. Luke shows him the Jedi are the redline that outlines whats heroic and whats not.

"sigh"

Anakin goes to save his mother: under control
Anakins mother dies: not under control

I sighed too trying to understand your post. You should have just said it like that. Read your own post. You basically start out saying, He was being a incredibly confused, frustrated and outright evil son in slaughtering the tribe .

Question: Why does Anakin lose control?

Answer: Because his attempt to be heroic fails.

("Why couldn't i save her?")

His saved his mother? From what I could tell Shmi died. Therefore, he didn't save her.
His attempt to save his mother is a failure and turns very unheroic.
It is not. Easing the pain is not saving a life, but rather aiding and comforting for the inevitable. Anakin failed to save her life. He made an attempt to be heroic but was unsucessful and therefore cannot be considered otherwise.
Great point. Anakin realized he failed as he couldn't save her.
Question: Why does Anakin lose control?

Answer: Because his attempt to be heroic fails.

"now i am complete"

That's the WHOLE point of the scene! Anakin cannot understand that he saved her, it's exactly like Luke saving Anakin at the end of Jedi and trying to keep him alive, "you already have Luke"

He DID save his mother and WAS a hero, he simply does not understand that - SHMI does and WE do, or we should. Anakin does not realize he failed, he THINKS he failed - did Luke fail in saving Anakin at the end of Jedi?

Cause i hate to keep bringing that up, but that is exactly the parallell George was making - Luke understands he SAVED Anakin, Anakin DOESN'T understand he saved Shmi

Anakin learns the ultimate lesson in Jedi: to let go. He asks Luke to remove his mask so he can look upon his son one last time. He finally has achieved a sense of fulfillment, and is willing to let life take its course. This is a lesson that he should have learned from his mother when she died. She survived a month of torture hoping to see her son one last time. When he finally came to her, she let herself go, saying ?now I am complete.? Anakin doesn't understand this in Clones - he does in Jedi.

He saved his mother from life itself, it (plus the Tuskens) had physically killed her - but she mentally hung on (EXACTLY like Anakin does after he gets 'killed'), Anakin allowed her to be complete and "move on", again - EXACTLY what Luke does to him, he kills the mental barriers (in this case, Vader and the Darkside) and Anakin is 'complete'.

Are sure about that? The Jedi seem to understand emotional attachment and thus remove "potential" Force Users at a very early age. To completely skip past this is something the Jedi would not do considering their protocol.

Exactly, but Anakin WASN'T removed at a early age now was he?

He spend a near childs lifetime with his mother, the Jedi - having taken all of their padawans from a early age, and especially Obi-Wan, have no experience with Anakin. Yoda might, because he doesn't want Anakin to be trained - but hes not Anakins mentor, Anakin skips the whole 'youngling' part because he's "too old"

Finally understand or always did? Again, in The Phantom Menace the Jedi noted that Anakin's thoughts dwelled on his mother. They understood thoughts and visions.
See, even you illustrated the Jedi understood. For hundreds of years has Yoda trained Jedi, it's very doubtful we would not know how to deal.

You're saying Obi-Wans approach in Clones towards Anakins vision is the same as his approach towards Lukes in Empire?

Really??

If the Jedi had known how to handle these occurences - then its odd that both Anakin and Obi-Wan cannot understand "why he keeps dreaming about her"

Is it not?

Cause Obi-Wan is the most direct pupil Yoda might have ever had, so..thats odd then, right?

They understand in TPM that Anakin fears for his mother, but they dont understand how close his actual bond is with her - GuiGon did, Padme did, the Jedi didn't. If so, then surely Obi Wan wouldn't have just said "Dreams pass in Time" to Anakin, right?

Because, as we find out later on, they most certainly weren't just "dreams".

Sith_Sensei_Prime - My assertion that Luke, Leia, Han, etc. are two dimensional characters was not a criticism of the OT, purely an objective statement. I tend to get immersed in these films, but if you stand back and look at the characters in a critical manner, there really isn't alot of depth to them. Again, I'm not trying to complain here. My reason for invoking the OT was to point out that these films are not about psychological depth; there are other films for that sort of thing. "Star Wars" is about action scenes, pulp melodrama, dizzying thrills and a slight bit of hamminess.

I suggested also that Luke was a traditional or classically-formed archetypal hero, and Anakin was deliberately concieved to present a moody, diametric opposition to him. For all of my above statements about applied psychology in regards to these films, I think that it is very interesting that one of the strengths of "Attack of the Clones" is that it has a certain psychological depth, particularly as it concerns Anakin. He is not a 'hero' per se, but does possess powers which he could use to become heroic. That's what's so interesting here. Everyone complains about Anakin's whining and selfish behavior and so-forth, but really, that is an entirely superficial matter. Lucas and his actor, Christensen, are able to really delve into and probe Anakin's psyche; the "Star Wars" saga hasn't had a more interesting character. He is conflicted and tortured and confused and immature and all of these factors feed into his greed, his arrogance, and his possessiveness. The fact that we are able to construe this in a lucid manner is a credit to the filmmakers. Simply because a character is not portrayed in precisely the manner that you wish him to be portrayed does not make it a misstep or fault, only a difference.

By the way, I fail to understand your objection regarding any sort of reference that I might have made to "The Phantom Menace". Yes, I am quite aware that this is a forum devoted to "Attack of the Clones", but since any such references were pertinent to my argument, then it shouldn't matter. The key thing being discussed here is Anakin, and he happens to appear in more than one film. I also think that any sort of reference to the 'construct' of the "Star Wars" saga is pointed, considering that the pictures were designed in a particular manner (yes, including the OT) and its basic structure only lends itself to this sort of discussion; it is difficult to explore one film without citing another. I have mentioned elsewhere on these boards that Darth Vader's redemption in "Return of the Jedi" is less powerful if you haven't seen "The Empire Strikes Back"; that's just the way these things are built. I accept them as such.

Man, too many mouth-fulls since I posted that question. Sorry if I didnt read all your post ( theyre epic ) just bare with me or quote yourselves accordingly.

"Winning the Boonta Eve
Destroying the TF Control Ship
Saving Obi-Wans life

Thats 3 major acts already"

Boonta Eve, heroic? Its not the first time hes raced Pods before and he has the reflexes to do it. Hes even admitted crashing. Its not really heroic. His Mom doesnt like him doing it and Watto "makes" him cause he can. If anything, Boonta eve was self help and a lucky break. Hes been Podracing and those are "awful races". This one just had a better outcome.

Um, he blew up the control-ship by accident.

He saved Obiwan like Solo saved Luke, so? How many movies have you seen were the main character is about to be demolished and someone takes the villain out from the back? A million times and with very capable characters. From Batman to Indiana Jones, some of our strongest and greatest heroes are saved by others. Sometimes children and sometimes, girls. Obiwan and Anakin are already in the "Jedi business" so one Jedi being able to help another is more of a duty and prerequisite than it is a heroic act. Its what they do. Dooku disabled both Jedi, had it been Anakin first under the blade, Obiwan would have had to save him. Oh yeah, its his fault Obiwan needed to be saved in the first place. "No, Im taking him now!" They never got to double-team him because of Anakin.

And those acts were discribed as "3 major acts already". Well, lets run this down again.

1. Holding secret council with Palpatine and most likely discussing things hed like to keep from the council. Decietful.

2. Back-talking his master and making disrespectful comments about a very respected master. Arrogant and unwise.

3. Would-be acts of heroism are limited to the safety of his girlfriend. Selfishness.

4. Ready to go against the Jedi code for Padme. Lust.

5. Slaughtering an entire village including women and children out of revenge.

6. Continued council in private with Palpatine. A relationship going on for so long that he may be considered turned ( sybolically ) while still amongst the Jedi.

7. Gets married in secret in a direct contradiction of the Jedi code of ethics.

8. Considered a spoiler here, but its bad.

9. Considered a spoiler here, and its worse.

Cant really sugar-coat it. Annie has done little in regards to heroics. Hes not a hero. His power as the chosen one is not granted until he recieves the power of the darkside. His midichlorian-filled skills are displayed in killing women, children, and 4foot bugs.

Sorry. If I was harsh id say hes been a weak, perverted, murderer.

When Anakin meets with Palpatine, I believe it is because he believes that Palpatine is a good man. He even describes him as a good person to Obi Wan when the two of them discuss politicians. Anakin certainly is self centred, and arrogant (which is a trait most of the Jedi of the period share, according to Yoda). Anakin might be heretical (preferring his interpretation of the Force and goodness over that of 'legitimized' characters like Yoda or Obi Wan), but he always acts with the arrogance of someone who believes he is right.

I am the public and media, and I love AOTC.