PT Why was Mace Windu allowed on the Jedi Counsel but not Qui-Gon

Mace Windu - Who openly acknowledged that he accepted and used some level of the Dark Side in his life and combat style

Qui-Gon - Who proposed listening to the will of the Force and not thought that the Jedi should aviod becoming mired in government and politics.

One was allowed a seat at the highest level of the Jedi Order, one was not.

One has to wonder what might have been different if Qui-Gon had Mace's seat ?

 

Where did that stuff about Mace using the Dark side come from? That's not in the films, or shows.

Qui-Gon disagrees with the council on many issues, and doesn't really seem the type for the council ways.

 

Vaapad (emotion-tapping lightsaber style that borders on Dark) is in Legends - but it's also in the newcanon (Visual Dictionary).

 

I remember reading that Mace's fighting style brought him dangerously close to the dark side with how aggressive it was. I don't know if that's still a thing though.

Edit:beaten to it

As for why Qui-Gon was never on the Council, it was because he defied them a lot as Obi-Wan said in TPM.

 

I love the character, but Qui-Gon "I'm just gonna do whatever, k" Jinn was not someone who was suited for an administrative position. I mean I know modern fiction teaches us to idolize loose cannon cops who don't play by the rules, man, but in actuality there are legitimate problems with that kind of personality.

 

In Legends (not sure about the new canon), Mace invented Vapaad. That was a pretty big contribution to the Jedi order. Mace was a highly accomplished warrior and formidable on the battlefield. I really like Mace as a character and have always thought of him as a bit of a hard liner. Mace is a stickler for the rules and would have fit well into the higher rank structure of the Jedi.

Qui-Gon, on the other hand, planned to openly defy the instructions of the Jedi Council by training Anakin. Qui-Gon also entered a child in a dangerous professional race then used the force to alter the stakes of a bet on said race. Qui-Gon was clearly reckless, but with good intentions. The problem with guys like Qui-Gon is that they can't accept that someone else might know better. If Qui-Gon couldn't bring himself to defer to the Council, then he had no place on it. That said, the Council must have respected Qui-Gon's knowledge and abilities as they gave him Obi Wan as an apprentice.

 

This is pretty much the take that the Legends comics I've read went with. Qui-Gon and the Council did not hate each other even a little bit, despite what certain portions of the loose-cannon-cop-idolizing fanbase would like to believe. He had friends on the Council. They liked him, even if his flaws meant that they sometimes butted heads over professional matters. But that's not a position you get as a gold star cause people like you and you're a cool guy. QG didn't seem interested in it anyway.

So yeah, they respected his abilities, and liked him as a person, but he was also considered a stubborn, reckless pain in the rear who wouldn't listen to the Council or his friends once he got an idea into his head about something. Which seems about right.

Can anyone imagine that man trying to spend an afternoon in session working out matters of policy and large-scale planning/organization? I sure can't.

 

I get the impression that Qui-Gon didn't particularly want to be on the Council. He's a righteous rebel who prefers to follow his own path and doesn't have any desire to get stuck with a bureaucratic position. Like Jim Kirk or the Doctor, he wants to be out in the field making a real difference for good. Kenobi talks about how Qui-Gon would, and even should, be on the Council, but Qui-Gon doesn't say anything to agree with that opinion.

 

I don't think it is a matter of not wanting to be on the Council. The thing is that Qui-gon would follow the Code, but sometimes he would circumvent without breaking the Code. Often enough these actions would be a small demerit mark on his ability to be on the Council. Mace is on the Council because he learned to follow the rules of the Code without circumventing them. Even with his knowledge of Vaapad, it isn't enough to cause a problem. It is how he conducted himself as a Jedi in the field and unlike Qui-gon, he does not have any blemishes on his record of service.

 

I'm sure Qui-Gon wouldn't consider them "blemishes", if they led to justice upheld and the innocent protected. Again, he's a righteous rebel, who'd rather follow the path of the Force than the dictates of the Order. (And, yes, they can be two separate things; the latter doesn't always follow the former.)

 

Qui-Gon's hippie style didn't do him any favors at the office.

 

That's the answer, OP. Qui-Gon was a loose-cannon Jedi who did things his way. When you're on the Council, you kind of have to NOT be like that.

 

I don't think Qui-Gon would accept a position on the Council if it were offered to him. From my understanding the Council does mostly teaching and discussions and rulings. It would be basically taking a desk job and it doesn't really seem his style. Qui-Gon would prefer to stay in the field. Plus out of all the Jedi that were alive at the time, would he even be the best choice. Just because we followed him on an adventure doesn't mean that he should be. Most Jedi live and die as Knights.

 

It depends on what those issues were that kept him off the Council. Qui-gon's actions might have had benefits, but they might have also impeded his mission. We also have to look at the point of view here. Obi-wan admires his Master quite a bit and feels that he should be on the Council, but his willingness to take on charity cases like Jar Jar and Anakin were doing him more harm than good. Qui-gon himself isn't bothered by his not being on the Council and doesn't take umbrage at this.

 

So could it be argued that in terms of character dynamics applied from another pop culture icon that Qui-Gon is Batman, Yoda is Gordon, Obi Wan is Robin and the Jedi Council is the GCPD?

 

More like Qui-Gon is the Doctor, Kenobi is (insert Companion here) and the Jedi Council are the High Council of Time Lords. Qui-Gon/the Doctor understands the Jedi/Time Lord viewpoint, and even supports it in principle, but is against the Council's stodgy and bureaucratic mindset, their disconnection from those they claim to protect, and their reluctance to use their influence to aid individuals, confining themselves to the "big picture". And Kenobi is very much Qui-Gon's student who, at times, tries to keep him grounded and remind him of said "big picture".

 

IMO it's more like Qui-Gon is Chef Boyardee, Obi-Wan is Jeff Goldblum in The Fly, and the Jedi Council are the Village People.

 

I have a feeling OP doesn't really have a grasp of either character well. Mace strictly followed all Jedi Code and never went against the order of the Council even before he was the highest among them. He was the EMBODIMENT of the Jedi Council and The Republic, he died to protect it's ideals. Qui-gon was a basically a rouge Jedi who disobeyed the Council on numerous occasions and didn't feel the Republic was doing it's intended duty. Had Qui Gon been the one to stand over Palps in ROTS I wonder what the outcome would have been, I doubt he would kill Sidious in that position.

 

I agree with you about Mace's fundamental characterization, but I would argue that he died betraying the Republic's ideals. The fact that his last act in life was so contrary to who he truly was as a person is an incredibly tragic irony, and illustrates the extent to which Sidious is a corrupting influence on everyone and everything around him.

 

That point can definitely be argued and I love the moral ambiguity of it, but ultimately Mace felt that the Republic's ideals had been corrupted by an evil Sith Lord, it needed to be killed and vanquished like a cancer or it would destroy the Republic he was fighting for. The Jedi Code DID not forbid killing a Sith Lord. Mace 100% felt he was doing the duty of the Council and the Republic in his final act and died with his mind at rest.

 

The Jedi Code DOES forbid killing an unarmed prisoner, as stated by Anakin earlier in the movie. It doesn't matter if the unarmed prisoner is a Sith Lord. Jedi are supposed to recognize and respect the humanity (or whatever word you want to substitute in a universe with sapient non-humans) of everyone, even their sworn enemies.

 

If the Code forbids the killing of unarmed opponents why is Mace lauded for beheading Jango AFTER he cuts off Jango's hand with the blaster?

People say Qui Gon was a rebel and didn't tow the party line with the Jedi Council but Windu was cocky and arrogant and when is that supposed to be the persona of the ideals the Jedi are supposed to portray?

 

When is he lauded for this?

It's also worth noting that Jango is still a formidable threat even without a blaster, which you can see amply demonstrated during his duel with Obi-Wan. The only real way to neutralize Jango without killing him is to completely strip him of his battle armor--not something which is really possible in the heat of battle.

 

So Jango is still a formidable threat even without a blaster, but Sidious the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord of all time is not a threat without his saber? That makes no sense. Mace would have been lauded by the council had he ended Sidious in battle. No questions asked.

 

He appeared to be completely depleted and on the verge of passing out from exhaustion. His entire body appeared to have been gruesomely scarred and deformed by his own reflected lightning, to the point where he looked like a fried corpse. He was a defeated adversary. Everyone in the room except for Sidious thought so. Mace decided to kill him based solely on his perception that controlled the Courts and the Senate. He was too politically dangerous to be kept alive.

And notice I never stated definitively that what Mace did to Jango was right. I was simply presenting an argument.