Why Wasn't Count Dooku in Episode I?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by chopman, Apr 17, 2005.

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  1. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    Why Wasn't Count Dooku in Episode I? This seems like a huge mistake to me. I know that there could only have been 2 dark jedis in the movie, but according to EP2, he would have been a good jedi at the time of EP1. Additionally, I believe EP2 said that he was on the council, but then where was he in EP1?

    According to the starwars.com databank, this is what it says about him:

    A strong-minded man, Dooku's ideas were often out of step with those of the Jedi Council, despite the fact that his former mentor, Yoda, held a lofty position in that governing body. His challenging views were often echoed by his former Padawan, Qui-Gon Jinn, another Jedi who would on occasion defy the Council.

    I don't understand why we never see/hear any of this if it happens at the time of EP1? I mean at the very least, shouldn't we have at least seen him sitting on the council?
    whostheBossk likes this.
  2. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    explanation - shoddy writing

    in-universe explanation - he was off on some important Jedi business that didn't pertain to the events of the film
  3. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    It says on the EP1 DVD that before he started filming anything, Lucas planned out the entire story. So how could it just be shoddy writing?

    For a movie this big, shouldn't a strickter continuity be expected, or am I just nitpicking?
  4. Hitman90 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 2
    He wasn't an important character in EP1. In EP2 then is were he is needed for the story. The Jedi probably underestimated his views and that's when he turned to the dakside. But this would happen many years later, and as for the fact that we do not hear of him passing on his rebelious behavior to Qui-Gon Jin maybe wasn't as important then as the situation at hand, which was the attack on Naboo. And at that time who cares about dooku, he never became an important figure until later in the story.
  5. chopman Jedi Knight

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    Apr 17, 2005
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    Well I care because I was under the impression that this trilogy was supposed to tie together with itself. He might not have been important at the time in EP1, but his appearance there would make EP2 more fleshed out. As it stands, he just pops up out of nowhere in EP2. And like I said, with such an important impact, I would think that he would be mentioned from the beginning since he plays a central role in the overall story of the PT. I mean at least he should have been sitting on the council no??
  6. Matt-trooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2005
    star 3
    I don't think he needed to be in ep1. He was still in the order at that time , I Think.Dooku I Think was a master,but wasn't on the council. I can only imagine a role for him in which he says how he disagrees with the Jedi serving the republic, which we already know. Dooku probably was off on a mission. With 10 000 jedi in the order its unlikely they'll just bump into him in the hallways.I like how we don't see Dooku in EP1 , but in ep2 , some of the characters talk about him as though they know him.
  7. Hitman90 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 2
    He pops up out of nowhere in EP2 because EP2 happens at a later date. There were no sepretists in EP1 it was just the Federation and Naboo. The jedi didn't know it would escalate into a civilwar.
  8. Darth_Board Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 1
    The Sith apprentice in Episode 2 was originally going to just be a scary alien like Darth Maul (one design ended up being Jedi Kit Fisto) or possibly a female who could literally seduce Anakin to the Dark Side. Count Dooku only came about when Lucas decided that the new Sith apprentice was going to be a fallen Jedi.

    That's why he wasn't in Episode 1. He didn't exist yet. Check Kit Fisto's databank entry (behind the scenes) at the official site.

    And Lucas did have the Prequels mapped out going in but only in very broad strokes. For instance, the making of TPM reveals that Obi-Wan was originally going to be a full Jedi Knight working by himself on Naboo and Anakin was originally going to be 12 years old.
  9. chopman Jedi Knight

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    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    All I'm saying is that considering the huge role that he played in AOTC and will obviously play in ROTS, he should have been there from the beginning. Even if GL just wanted another throwaway character like Maul for AOTC, according to the movie's continuity, he should have been on the Jedi council in the first one since it said that he was on the council 10 years ago and EP1 took place 10 years before AOTC. Maybe I'm wrong about him being on the council, does anyone know what was exactly said?
  10. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    Dooku was never on the Jedi Council. The only time anyone else mentions he was a former Jedi was when Mace said, "You know, m'lady, Count Dooku is a former Jedi. He couldn't asassinate anyone, it's not in his character." For all we know, Dooku left the Order before TPM. There are lots of characters in 2, 3, 5, and 6 that were not in previous movies. It is standard LFL practice with the SW movies to introduce one new important character in each movie. Why do people want to villify GL for stylistic choices he made during the PT, especially since many of those choices are present in the OT as well?
  11. chopman Jedi Knight

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    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    Where in the OT does this happen? I haven't seem them in a long time so I really don't remember.
  12. Tyrantus Jedi Knight

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    Oct 10, 2004
    star 3
    After watching AotC a few times, it did occur to me that it would of been neat to have Dooku make an appearance in TPM. Even if it was just a quick meeting between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, it would of been a neat bit on George's part. Of course, that would contridict Dooku's statement, 'It's a pity our paths have never crossed before, Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of you." Still, it would have been neat to shed a bit of light on a character who would me a major character in AotC.
  13. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    explanation - shoddy writing

    The Emperor is mentioned by Tarkin on the Death Star, but doesn't appear in the flesh until ROTJ. Why is that OK, but Dooku not being in TPM is "shoddy writing?"
  14. Matt-trooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2005
    star 3
  15. Bacon164 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    Quite simply because Lucas hadn't invented him yet.
  16. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    The Emperor is mentioned by Tarkin on the Death Star, but doesn't appear in the flesh until ROTJ. Why is that OK, but Dooku not being in TPM is "shoddy writing?"

    You've answered your own question. The Emperor is mentioned in A New Hope and given a brief scene in Empire Strikes Back, thus making sure his real introduction in Return of the Jedi is not a contrivance.

    Dooku, however, is not even mentioned in The Phantom Menace.
  17. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    Why can't that scene from the OT be shoddy writing as well? I don't even remember the scene, but someone else explained it anyway.
  18. JediKnightOB1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 5
    I think he was erasing the computer archives and in effect erased himself. ;)
  19. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    You've answered your own question. The Emperor is mentioned in A New Hope and given a brief scene in Empire Strikes Back, thus making sure his real introduction in Return of the Jedi is not a contrivance.

    The Emperor warrants the mention in ANH. He did something important--dissolving the senate. Dooku does not warrant any mention in TPM. He wasn't on the council (despite what certain people want to believe), and was not involved with the events in TPM. What would have been a real contrivance would be to mention Count Dooku or give him a scene that serves no purpose other than to get him in the movie. How many people hate Boba Fett's contrived appearence in ANH (I'm not one of them)? This is the lowest form of bashing. Congradulate GL for what he did in the OT, then villify him for doing the same things in the PT. I will say it again: GL introduces at least one brand new important character in each new movie. Why is it OK for him to do this in the OT, but not OK in the PT? Consider Jabba the Hutt. People who don't like the OT: SEs often cite Jabba being inserted into ANH as one of the worst changes. Yet here people are, complaining about Dooku NOT being in TPM. This is another perfect example of the Basher Double-Standard.
  20. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    This is the lowest form of bashing. Congradulate GL for what he did in the OT, then villify him for doing the same things in the PT

    First off, I never even mentioned the original trilogy during my initial comments as to why Dooku didn?t appear in TPM. You assume much in thinking I am one to bestow the OT with lavish praise while at the same time begrudging the PT for no good reasons other than being a basher. Secondly, I?m not ?vilifying? Lucas for anything. Rather, I?m merely stating that because of the way he was introduced into the saga, I feel Dooku is not a very well-developed character.

    Again, Dooku is a very important PT personage, and as such I think it would have been prudent to start developing the character as early as possible in order to make his role all the more integral. As it stands, I don?t think Dooku comes across as much more than an "off the top of the head" character Lucas whipped up before sitting down to write the Episode II script. Hence my reason for the shoddy writing remark.

    People who don't like the OT: SEs often cite Jabba being inserted into ANH as one of the worst changes. Yet here people are, complaining about Dooku NOT being in TPM. This is another perfect example of the Basher Double-Standard.

    This sentence really added an air of sweeping negativity to a thread that was otherwise well-focused. You may want to take note of this forum?s standard policy of discussing the films, not the fans.
  21. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    Again, Dooku is a very important PT personage

    This is the basic flaw in the argument. He is not an important character. My evidence for this is his lack of screentime in ATOC, and my projection for his potential amount of screentime in ROTS. If he was important, he would be in the movie more. To say it is just shoddy writing ignores the basic assumption that GL knows more about where the story is going than we fans can know about where the story is going.
  22. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    He is not an important character.

    It's odd that an unimportant character is the chief antagonist of Attack of the Clones.

    To say it is just shoddy writing ignores the basic assumption that GL knows more about where the story is going than we fans can know about where the story is going.

    Or conversely, it could be a simple criticism of the two finshed products we have with TPM and AOTC.
  23. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    I completely understand both sides of the argument.

    On one side, I call the A side, Dooku is the main baddie of Ep. 2 pretty much, and his character just pops up out of the clear blue milk. Tarkin's doesn't. Bail organa's doesn't. Even the useless as ever Threepio gets to hog some precious screen-time in an episode he served pretty much no purpose in. Why not give some tiny little background to such an important character?

    On the B side, he's not important until episode 2.

    To that I say, so what?

    I agree with the A side on this issue.

    Thanks for reading.
  24. Darth_Board Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 1
    The question is moot. As is clearly pointed out in this page on the official site's databank:
    http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/countdooku/?id=bts
    Dooku did not exist when TPM was being made. Whether or not it is bad storywise that he doesn't show up in TPM is irrelevant (and although it never occurred to me that he should have been in TPM, it is an interesting concept). He didn't exist then. If Lucas wants to digitally reinsert him later, he could but why bother? Dooku serves his purpose and he leaves the story. Simple, easy, no hassle.

    Good filmmakers don't just go with their first thought generally (the first treatment of "The Star Wars" was an almost straight remake of Akira Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress, only set in outer space). The fact that Dooku was created for AOTC doesn't mean he's less of a character or some "spur of the moment" thing. As the link above demonstrates, a lot of work went into Episode II's antagonist. But at the end of the day, that's all he is and all he was ever meant to be, the Episode II bad guy. I'm glad Lucas rethought his first ideas on him. The idea of making him a fallen Jedi makes him far more pertinent to Anakin's story than he would have been (although the female Sith idea above is kind of interesting too; check this link to see another concept:
    http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/kitfisto/?id=bts
    Yep, the Kit Fisto formerly known as a Sith). He revised the idea and came up with something better. I'm thankful he did.
  25. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4

    The idea of making him a fallen Jedi makes him far more pertinent to Anakin's story...

    Actually, this throws up all kinds of other issues. It destroys the uniqueness of Anakin turning to the Dark Side. The Jedi should not be suprised at all - if Dooku can turn then headstrong Anakin would be a prime candidate.

    It also means that Yoda trained a Sith. This makes a mockery of Obi Wans guilt in the OT - "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda..."

    ----

    Regarding Dooku in Episode 1. People can scramble to clean up after Lucas all they want, but the fact is that Lucas is making this up as he goes along which means "important characters" are actually throwaway characters based on whatever Lucas comes up with at that time.

    If you are writing a trilogy, especially one that is supposed to be part of a saga, you need to write them all at the same time.

    It is, indeed, sloppy writing.

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