Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by chopman, Apr 17, 2005.
He was still surrounded by the ents in his tower.
When you say the doesn't exist, meaning that GL hadn't thought of him at the time, you're agreeing that it's shoddy writing.
Whether or not you guys will agree, Dooku is VERY important to the PT, and like Mandalorian said, the fact that he was a Jedi adds a whole new unexplored dimension to the character and the other characters.
But even if you don't want to accept that is important, like Deeysew said, C3PO and R2D2, characters who have NOTHIGN to do with the PT, have more time on screen. And all I'm saying is that at least showing him in EP1 is sufficient. Certainly if minor characters get screen time, why doesn't he?
I'm surprised that it never occurred to you. That was the first thing taht popped into my head when I saw EP2. If they didn't have the 10 years part then I wouldn't have even noticied, but the fact that they chronology fits, it's defenitly shoddy writing.
Well, if anyone here has read Matt Stover's Revenge of the Sith, it states that Dooku was a Jedi who left the order and was considered one of a group called the Lost Twenty. There are other beings in the universe who were followers of the force other than Jedi and Sith. So maybe at the time of The Phantom Menace, Dooku was still just a deserter of the order.
I still say Dooku is not an important character to the whole saga, and did not warrant a role in TPM. The PT has a totally different structure than the OT which warranted a different approach to the villians. The PT is more complex in the nature of its evil. Ideally we won't even know the identity of the ultimate super-villan (Palpatine) until his reveal in ROTS. This hidden super-villian is backed by a series of lesser flunkies because the one he really wants (Vader) is not ready for the role yet. Good and evil is not a black and white issue in the PT. IMO, this was GL intention from the get go. I do not think shoddy writing is an accurate explanation for why Dooku wasn't in TPM. It is a matter of the style, not writing quality. GL doesn't even begin thinking about writing the next movie until the hype surrounding the current one dies down, and did not start writing ATOC until November of '99. He's written good movies in the past. Its not like he got a lobotomy in between ROTJ and TPM. The quality is there, but the style is different.
Like I've said before, he didn't have to be a major character in EP1, just at least be shown, because from what we learn from EP2-
1. He was a Jedi during the time of EP1 and was a radical like Qui Gon
2. He was Qui Gon's master, how could Obi Wan not know him??
Then there should be some mention or picture or SOMETHING of him. If he had turned to the dark side 20 years before AOTC (10 years before EP1) then there wouldn't be a problem. Or if he hadn't been Qui-Gon's master then there still wouldn't be a problem. These little inconsistencies aren't stylistic choices, they are poor planning and shoddy writing. What else do you call an underdeveloped character??
The whole story is about Anakin Skywalker. From Episodes 1-6. Not Count Dooku.
Yes let me add by saying there is so much mystery around many of the Characters and my theory on Palpatine is that he knows Anakin Skywalker is the Chosen One and he could destroy him. His real interest is not in getting him as an apprentice as it is getting him to not kill him. As a powerful wielder of the Dark Side of the Force, he uses every means he can to make that happen. And he lies to Anakin to convert him to the Dark Side to make him believe that he is his friend. Ultimately that is why the twins have to stay hidden. It's because the Emporer doesn't so much fear the twins as he does Vader destroying him. That's why the Emporer in Episode 6 believes that Luke is going to kill Darth Vader and he will win. But deep inside he fears that Luke will turn him. Remember that the Emporer sees just as much as the Jedi and more. And I suspect that Vader believes that his wife is dead by the time Episode III is finished. And the Jedi play along with it because they want to protect the twins. Just a theory. Anyway, there could be a thread entirely on this subject.
[blockquote]The whole story is about Anakin Skywalker. From Episodes 1-6. Not Count Dooku.[/blockquote]
Then why did we "have" to see Obi-wan as an apprentice? Why did we see the "mystery" at Kamino?
Dooku is not the main baddy. Palpatine is. Boy, what a dumb assumption. A story is being told here. Not Dooku's story, Anakin's story. What difference does it make where he's introduced and how much we know about him if he's not the main character? I personally, would like to know more about the Sith and the origins of Palpatine. But that's not what the story's about. I am willing to bet way more people would be interested in that than in Dooku. Does that tell you how insignificant he is?
Because that explains Anakin's story of his teacher because their fates are so intertwined. Use a little imagination combined with understanding.
You didn't answer my questions though, why did we have to see Obi-wan as an apprentice and the mystery at Kamino?
Dooku is not the main baddy.
While Palpatine is the main PT villain in the grand scheme of things, I think it?s fair to say that based on actual screen time during which the protagonists are posturing against him, Dooku is the primary antagonist of Attack of the Clones. Regardless, I don?t think that simply because Anakin is the saga?s main character that other key PT roles like Dooku shouldn?t have been developed with care.
Then why did we "have" to see Obi-wan as an apprentice? Why did we see the "mystery" at Kamino?
Uh...'cause they were actually integral to the plot of those movies. Dooku would have served no purpose in TPM. He wasn't on the council and AFAIK there is no proof he was even still a Jedi.
He was Qui Gon's master, how could Obi Wan not know him??
Because Qui-Gon was no longer Dooku's padawan when he took Obi-Wan as his padawan. Qui-Gon and Dooku were not joined at the hip. Qui-Gon and Dooku kept in touch afterwards, but what does this have to do with Obi-Wan? There is no reason to believe they ever had any reason to meet. The galaxy is a big place. I never knew my father's father, yet we lived in the same country.
I still don't get why this bothers people so much. I mean there are so many things about AOTC to complain about. To me, this isn't even an issue.
I don't think there's anything shoddy about adding a new character part way through a story. Yoda was created for TESB. The only reason he even exists is because Lucas decided to kill off Obi-Wan in ANH. Originally a much modified version of the whole OT was going to be the first--and likely only--film. When Lucas broke the story up, he realized he had nothing for Obi-Wan to do in the last act of ANH, so he killed him off, opting for the poignancy of sacrifice over just allowing him to hang around until the next one. Yoda was created to fill the role Obi-Wan was going to have filled in TESB and ROTJ.
Qui-Gon Jinn didn't exist (at least not as Obi-Wan's master) in the earliest treatment for TPM. He was added when Lucas decided to show more of Obi-Wan's development. Anakin was going to be 12 years old in TPM but GWL thought a nine-year-old would be more affected by leaving his mother.
Peter Jackson was working off a forty-year-old literary trilogy and he made all sorts of changes in the process of making it. Good filmmakers are flexible. I think the final idea with Dooku makes a lot more sense than the Sith apprentices that were invisioned initially and so, I'm glad the change was made.
Again, you could put him in via CG if you wanted but why? He's meant to be a mystery in AOTC. A name that we hear and think, "I wonder who this is?" When Mace says Dooku "couldn't assassinate anybody" (dumb line), we're supposed to be surprised to learn that he used to be a Jedi. He's even shadowy and vague when he first appears onscreen. We're not supposed to know he's gone to the Dark Side until Yoda confronts him. We're supposed to be surprised he's a Sith when he meets with Darth Sidious. The fact that they leaked all this stuff way in advance with the merchandising doesn't change how the story was supposed to go.
If the scene with the explanation of the Lost Twenty between Jocasta Nu and Obi-Wan had been left in, the mystery might have worked better but he was meant to be mysterious and adding him in to TPM ruins that. Seems a waste of a good story element just to make a character who was created to serve a purpose seem more important. He's a big deal in the galaxy as a whole but he serves only a relatively minor role in the actual story of the saga. Anything about his backstory is better left to fanboys and the EU.
I don't get why the original trilogy bothers GL so much.
Makes hardly any difference to me whether Dooku's shown to be the new sith baddie at the biginning end or middle of AotC. Somebody has to be and it sure isn't Jango.
What would showing him in Ep 1 have done to tarnish his character in the next film?
Oh look. It's Dooku. He is a noble jedi knight who has problems with the order. Not everything is clean and perfect in the ranks of the jedi it seems. No wonder Quiogon is willing to abandon them.
Next episode: Oh look. A rogue jedi. He's evil now. OH I remember him from ep one. he didn't like being on the jedi team and must have switched sides. That could never happen to Anakin, or could it. No, oh, no. Too much suspense. don't slaughter those tuskens Anakin. The fear of loss will lead you to the Dooku side.
Even if Dooku was placed in Episode I, where do you fit him in? The only Jedi that was shown besides Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were the Jedi on the Council. Dooku wasn't on the Council so he doesn't fit into the story at that time.
[blockquote]Uh...'cause they were actually integral to the plot of those movies. Dooku would have served no purpose in TPM. He wasn't on the council and AFAIK there is no proof he was even still a Jedi.[/blockquote]
Were they integral? I thought these movies were "Anakin's story," by that rationale we didn't need to see where the clones came from, just for them to attack, we didn't need to see Obi-wan's being an apprentice, it took screentime away from Anakin. This is supposedly "Anakin's story," not Obi-wan's or the clones'.
Why Wasn't Count Dooku in Episode I?
He wasn't needed to move the story along.
Additionally, I believe EP2 said that he was on the council, but then where was he in EP1?
No, Dooku was never on the Jedi Council.
According to the starwars.com databank, this is what it says about him:
A strong-minded man, Dooku's ideas were often out of step with those of the Jedi Council, despite the fact that his former mentor, Yoda, held a lofty position in that governing body. His challenging views were often echoed by his former Padawan, Qui-Gon Jinn, another Jedi who would on occasion defy the Council.
I think this is where you get confused. It's saying that Dooku was often in disagreement with the Council, something his student Qui-Gon Jinn was too.
I mean at the very least, shouldn't we have at least seen him sitting on the council?
I hope now you understand that he was never on the Council and that putting him in the movie wouldn't have moved the story along.
The idea that this whole thing is about Anakin is just Lucas propaganda.
Half the stuff that happens in the PT has nothing to do with Anakin and, if you watch the OT, Vader is far from being the focus.
Anakin is one of the main story threads, nothing more. Obi Wan and Luke are two others.
The fact is that there are a lot of story elements in Star Wars and if Dooku is put in there then it needed much better development.
As it is, Dooku is a throwaway character that just screams "I made this character up on the spur of the moment because I wanted Christopher Lee in the movie"
I am not willing to excuse sloppy writing and character development by saying its all about Anakin.
"It also means that Yoda trained a Sith. This makes a mockery of Obi Wans guilt in the OT - "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda..."
Yoda never was apprenticed to dooku, like obi wan was to anakin. dooku went with another jedi master (sorry to lazy to go find my (legacy of the jedi, or whatever its called)
Yoda called him his Padawan - in the most pointless, ill thought-out throwaway line in movie history.
Lucas himself said that Episodes 1-3 are the story of Anakin Skywalker and Episodes 4-6 is about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. And although there are some historical events happening that seem like they are unrelated to him, they are because Lucas is portraying the history that is taking place during this guy's story. Gosh quit relying on your lack of reading. Everyone wants to come to their own conclusions about who's important and who's not. Just listen to Lucas about his commentaries on the movie. No Dooku is not the main baddy. I don't care how much you try to rationalize it. Are you all so stupid to forget who he's working for? Man, oh man. Well, I guess that's why we have these things because we hope to redeem ignorance in morons.
Just to echo what people said about Dooku being a throwaway/last-minute character, I'm willing to bet that he doesn't have much screen time either in next movie. If Jar-Jar Binks had more screen time than Count Dooku, then he really is insignificant. Palpitine is the main bad guy, the Dark Lord of the Sith, and the master of the design to destroy the Jedi and the Republic. Read, think, watch and ponder. And honestly there should be no more discussion.
Let me add by saying that all the Sith, with the exception of Darth Vader, are supposed to be a mystery. We really need to take into consideration here that not only Count Dooku, but the origins of Darth Maul and Emporer Palpatine are mysterious also. And if you remember the introduction of Episode 2, Lucas puts the adjective mysterious in front of Dooku's name. (for a reason maybe) Maybe to portray that the Jedi really don't know what's going on and add more intrigue to the movie, not to make Dooku necessarily that important, but to portray this fact to the audience. I appreciate all the smart people who follow this. The mystery at Kamino if your question still isn't answered, is telling the story of the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire and the blindness of the Jedi, which provides the backdrop history to the story of Anakin. And let me say also that Anakin's offspring are also the story in the OT, but they become part of his story, so this is the continuum. Story with history. Every novel has a historical background and since this is science fiction, Lucas has to expound on the history that is taking place to have it all make sense. Question is now, can you make sense of it?
Well on the subject of Dooku,
Take mace Windu and Bail, both have small roles in one film but bigger in the next. Lucas did say that both characters were introduced in TPM and AotC respectively but their big parts came in the subsequent films. So there Lucas very much had the characters appear and not do much but still be introduced. In TPM Mace does not do much and I think Lucas says that his role was essentially a cameo but the meat of his story would come later.
So it would not have been unusual for Lucas to have Dooku in a small role in TPM and a bigger role later.
But the character did not exist at the time so things change. Personally I would have liked more of Dooku but I am a fan off Mr. Lee
Well, I guess that's why we have these things because we hope to redeem ignorance in morons.
From what I?ve read in this thread, the people who have a problem with Dooku?s character development have been expressing their criticisms with well-thought posts. Just because one?s views on a film differ from your own does not necessarily make them ignorant morons.
If Jar-Jar Binks had more screen time than Count Dooku, then he really is insignificant.
That?s exactly the problem that some find so irksome. To me, it doesn?t seem prudent that a character developed as nothing more than an outlet for comic relief has had more development and screen time than Count Dooku, a fallen Jedi and Sith lord who directly pertains to Anakin?s conflict on several levels.