Why Wasn't Count Dooku in Episode I?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by chopman, Apr 17, 2005.

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  1. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4
  2. seventyard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2003
    star 1
    i also think there are two sides to this discussion: no, of course dooku didn't need to be in episode i, but it would have been cool if he had been. no, he wasn't on the jedi council, but it would have been cool if he had been. both of these things would have given his character and his motivations added levity, which improve any story.

    as it stands the casual, mostly-un-spoiled fan went into seeing episode ii knowing nothing about dooku except what was revealed in the trailer ? that he fought with a red lightsaber and was therefore probably sith. accordingly, the mystery surrounding his involvement with the separatists, the trade federation, and jango was mostly lost. had he been even a background character in ep. i, at least one would have been able to say, ?wow ? he?s bad now? i wonder how that went down!?

    i don't think it is shoddy writing, but i think it is reasonable to question the approach to the way the prequels were written. i?d love for some interviewer to someday ask lucas what things he might have done differently in the prequels had he written all three scripts at once before filming anything, rather than the write-film, write-film, write-film process that became reality.

    i bet adding dooku to episode i would be something that would cross his mind.

    my point is, it would be cool to get an action figure of dooku in jedi robes with a green or blue lightsaber?

    ?obviously.
  3. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    >The whole story is about Anakin Skywalker. From Episodes 1-6. Not Count Dooku.

    But in order to tell Anakin's story, you must tell Dooku's as well.

    >Qui-Gon and Dooku kept in touch afterwards, but what does this have to do with Obi-Wan? There is no reason to believe they ever had any reason to meet.

    I didn't ask why they never met, I asked why Obi Wan didn't know who he was. You might not have met your grandfather, but I'm sure you know who he was, or at least his name.

    >I don't think there's anything shoddy about adding a new character part way through a story. Yoda was created for TESB. The only reason he even exists is because Lucas decided to kill off Obi-Wan in ANH.

    The idea that GL makes up characters all of a sudden to fill in gaps is called bad writing.

    And why is it not a mystery if you've seen his face before. I'm not advocating for a backstory in EP1, just some kind of mention that he exists and is important and not someone created while GL was on the toilet trying to think of ways to further along the plot.

    >Even if Dooku was placed in Episode I, where do you fit him in? The only Jedi that was shown besides Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were the Jedi on the Council. Dooku wasn't on the Council so he doesn't fit into the story at that time.

    Fine, how about a mentioning? Or how about that deleted scene from AOTC where Obi is waiting for help in the archives and he is looking at a bust of Dooku's face. Or since he is obviously important enough to get a bust in the archives, just walking down the halls or something!

    I get that I made a mistake, he wasn't on the council. But I don't think that putting him in EP1 would make the story move along better, that's not the point I've been trying to make. My point is that such a big character should have gotten some kind of mentioning considering his specific backstory. It wouldn't destroy any kind of mystery, it would only add to his character the way Deeysew described it so eloquently.
  4. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    "It also means that Yoda trained a Sith. This makes a mockery of Obi Wans guilt in the OT - "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda..."

    Are you saying that Yoda did a terrible job with Dooku? That Dooku didn't make his own choices? So basically you are saying that in real life that the choices kids make is always a reflection on their parents?


    The fact is that there are a lot of story elements in Star Wars and if Dooku is put in there then it needed much better development.

    What about Boba Fett in the original trilogy? What about Tarkin? What about Mon Mothman? What about Lando? They didn't put much detail in those characters in the original trilogy. That's because they weren't of huge importance of the OT, same with Count Dooku. It wasn't until the PT that we got to more more of Fett, Mothma, and Tarkin, and where they came from. The ONLY REASON why anybody wants more development from Dooku is because he is an ex-Jedi, who became a Sith./>
  5. Mandalorian_Warrior Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    star 3
    DLowe is right. This is not shoddy writing, bad planning, or any continuity problem. Its an introduction of a new character whos important to the next stage of the story. People complain about new villians in each movie like Maul, Jango and Grievous or Dooku whos a 2 movie villian. They're introduced for their purpose to the story and play their role, and their fate is what it is. This is no different than Han, Lando, Boba, Tarkin or others. In fact all the characters of the saga are in the same boat. Obi Wan, Yoda, Luke, Padme, Mace, Qui Gon, etc. They all serve their purpose in the story. Thats why it makes perfect sense that Dooku isnt in TPM, or that Yoda and Lando aren't in ANH, or that Han isnt in the PT, and vice versa with Mace. In my opinion, its all fine the way it is. Say what you want about Lucas' directing, dialouge and what not, but leave his storytelling and continuity alone.
  6. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    I didn't ask why they never met, I asked why Obi Wan didn't know who he was

    Obi-Wan DID know who he was. He recognized him as soon as Dooku entered his holding cell.

  7. METAVOID Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Dooku's role in the Clone Wars is significant, but it is mostly behind the scenes. I would sure like to see Dooku train Grievous in lightsaber combat and see Dooku defeat and kill Jedi in battle but alas we will not. Dooku is a pawn and an object of initiation for Anakin -- all according to Darth Sidious's evil workings.
  8. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    I would sure like to see Dooku train Grievous in lightsaber combat

    You can see some of it in the Clone Wars cartoons.
  9. Okeimai_Saber Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Dooku's role in the Clone Wars is significant, but it is mostly behind the scenes. I would sure like to see Dooku train Grievous in lightsaber combat and see Dooku defeat and kill Jedi in battle but alas we will not. Dooku is a pawn and an object of initiation for Anakin -- all according to Darth Sidious's evil workings.

    Well said.

    My point is that such a big character should have gotten some kind of mentioning considering his specific backstory.

    His character got all the backstory it deserved in Episode 2 because it's not really as big as some people think. That's why any questions of insignificance according to George Lucas get answered by EU. Why don't Yoda and Mace Windu get a big backstory in Episodes 1 and 2? They are the main leaders of the Jedi Council and their roles are equally significant to Dooku's wouldn't you think? I seriously think it's just a Count Dooku bias.

    Again, all I'm saying is it's GL's baby. He knows the significance of each character. Star Wars is his story. Any writer of anything knows where and when to reveal a new character and tells enough according to their significance. Star Wars is Star Wars, and it comes from George Lucas. He knows the why behind all of it. How is Dooku's whole life story as important as Anakin's especially if he's not even the main bad guy?

    C'mon everyone knows Palpatine is. Why is it relevent to Anakin's story if he's just a pawn and gets whacked down in the next movie anyway? Do we care? No, we care how Anakin becomes Darth Vader. It's not because of Dooku. Dooku doesn't try to seduce Anakin to the Dark Side. He could care less. He tries to kill Anakin, and so what, so do a lot of droids and Geonosians. Do we need to tell each of their stories also?

    Palpatine is way more significant and the main bad guy. Heck Dooku's so pathetic he thinks Obi-Wan a better candidate to join up with him than Anakin. He's just a weak fill in, now that Darth Maul is dead and until Anakin becomes Darth Vader. He gets the job done but Palpatine could care less about keeping him around until Anakin becomes his new apprentice. He's just throw away for Darth Sidious to let him do his dirty work and to stay hidden.

    No post here has convinced me that Dooku has anymore significant mentioning or screentime than he was given. I see how much we try to convince others that his role is not important. Please help me see how it is....???

    Darth Sidious orchestrated the start of the Clone Wars, not Count Dooku. Even the Jedi suspect that, blind as they are. Dooku is only acting under Sidious' direction. So many other things are happening, not just among the Confederacy, but among the Republic also. To limit it to Dooku is just off track.
  10. chopman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    I'm not saying that Dooku should have been in EP1 just because he was a Jedi who fell to the Sith and that makes him cool, and I don't think that it's hypocritical to say that he should be in it when other characters aren't, because those characters' backstories don't coincide with stuff that's going on in the foreground.

    Where would those characters from the OT even fit in? Nowhere. We saw Windu in EP1 and he had a line or two and then he was in EP2. That reinforces his character by showing his importance. Imagine if Mace Windu just appeared on the Jedi Council in EP1 after never having seen him before. Think about how much that changes our perception of his character. We would think he was less important. Dooku is also an important character who doesn't get the emphasis that he deserves.

    If he was introduced with the same information as Maul, then everything would be cool. But, like I said, since we are given specific details that should have placed some mentioning of him in the first movie, that shows poor planning and lack of continuity.
  11. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    NO! NO! NO! NO!

    There is nothing in the way he was introduced in EPII that should have placed him in EPI. You are beating a dead horse. He was not on the Council, he had not been Qui-Gon's master for at least 20 or 30 years (time enough for Obi-Wan to be Qui-Gon's THIRD padawan), and there is no proof whatsoever that he was even still a Jedi during the events of TPM. To state that it would be fine if he was introduced like Darth Maul only further debunks your own assertion, as Maul is even LESS developed than Dooku.
  12. Okeimai_Saber Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Well said. Dooku is not that important as we'll see in the next movie, just a pawn.

    He gets as much emphasis as Lucas sees fit. He's Lucas' character in Lucas' film. Why criticize that? If you want to rewrite Star Wars, then it won't be Star Wars, get it? You are beating a dead horse.

    If you think he's cool that's one thing. If you think he's more important than he is, you're wrong. Plain and simple.
  13. Mandalorian_Warrior Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    star 3
    Agreed. He is a major player in the Clone Wars, nobodys aruging that, and this is why he is introduced in EP2 and serves his purpose to the story. Theres no place or need for him in Episode 1, and as the clone wars come to an end and the story progresses, his role is fufilled and he will be done with, however that may be. I think hes a great character but he just has no place in Episode 1.

    I like Lando too but I dont think he should come into the cantina at the end and tell Han he's leaving the smuggling business.
  14. Obilieveinme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2005
    star 4
    It would have been ok for him to be seen deleting the planet where the clones came from. Meaning we don't see his face but, as foreshadowing, leaving a mystery character.
  15. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "The Emperor is mentioned by Tarkin on the Death Star, but doesn't appear in the flesh until ROTJ. Why is that OK, but Dooku not being in TPM is "shoddy writing?"

    You answered you're own question. because the emperor was set up before his appearance.


    This business with Dooku would be like not having Vader in ANH or mentioned at all, then when ESB starts you mention Vader in the crawl but don't show him. When the probe droid gets spotted on Hoth, Leia claims Vader is behind it but gives no explanation why. then the rebels leave Hoth because of the probe droid. No battle of hoth

    Luke goes to dagobah, han and Leia have their romance on the falcon but the empire is NOT after them. Just Boba Fett but not with much more screen time then he already has.

    then we see vader for the first time when Lando opens the door of the dining room and Han and Leia get captured. Only Boba Fett would not be standing next to vader, so we would be confused by what was going on. We wouldn't see Boba again till he shoots at Luke.

    When Vader fights luke there would be no "I am your father moment" and Vader would not be the one who killed obi-wan or Luke's father (from lukes POV) he would just be some bad guy who captured han and leia. Then at the end Yoda would show up with some rebel soldiers and save Luke from Vader and Vader would get away.



    Thats how ESB would be if Vader was set up the way Dooku is, and that would be a crappy movie.

    People say how its not nessesary to set up dooku in tpm, or the new ep3 badguy in ep2.

    Yet every important villian in the OT was set up by Lucas (in some cases retroactively in the special editions and with the prequels) before their main appearance.

    Jabba, Boba, palpatine, Vader, greedo (in deleted scene) and a certain other prominent villian from the OT with ep3.
  16. Okeimai_Saber Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    What a lame comparison to compare Dooku with Darth Vader, especially when Darth Vader is the Emporer's apprentice throughout the whole entire OT and TPM has Darth Maul, then Dooku, then Darth Vader. His role is important but no where near as significant. Like Lucas said, Star Wars is a tale of the Skywalkers. Primarily Anakin. That is why you can't compare Dooku to Darth Vader at all in their significance. Just to make my point clear, how many times do you hear his name in the original trilogy? Case closed.
  17. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Not really. We all knew that there would be at least one sith apprentice in the PT before anakin, there's no reason that character can't be properly introduced and developed.

    Dooku is important to ep2 because he is the primary villian, adventure movies need strong villians to be successfulm and unfortunately that isn't realized well due to a complicated setup for him that all takes place off screen.
  18. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    That and, well, Star Wars at the time of inception wasn't "the tale of the Skywalkers," it was the Adventures of Luke Skywalker. Given that, there was no "I am your father" or "The name of your true self, you've only forgotten" during the making of Star Wars, that is all well after the fact. In ANH and ESB, Vader was simply a villain for the heroes to contend with. He was well-developed and had a presence that could not be questioned. Significance or not, plot twists irrelevent, Vader was a villain that was effective because we knew him from the get-go. If you don't know the villain, why care? And it's as they say "Your hero is only as good as your villain." In Dooku, you have a forgettable name thrown around and only a third of a movie's worth of interaction. That's it. If we can't give a flip about the villains, we can't give one about the heroes. Poorly thought out on Lucas' part.

    Imagine, as Rebel put it, Vader being introduced into the saga at Bespin or on the bridge of the Executor. No backstory, no history, no previous encounter, just a new villain we're all supposed to care about simply because he's in a Star Wars movie, no context to his presence at all. He duels Luke, and it will have zero intensity to it. It's intense because of what we already know about the characters, their past histories. One of my favorite parts is when Vader tells Luke, who is on the ground, "Don't let yourself be destroyed as Obi-wan did." Luke sneers and swats the saber away. That's great. That's DRAMA. And why is it effective? Because Vader was involved in the saga for more than twenty minutes. There's relevence to what he says. Without it, without knowing or caring about Vader, "I am your father" would be as hollow and stupid as "Fought well you have, my old Padawan." It just becomes and empty, arbitary throwaway line that heavy-handedly links the characters together. The connection and longetivity of the character creates drama like ESB, empty hollow villains thought up of at the last minute and thrown in for the sake of having a saber fight leads to, well, AOTC.
  19. sidious618 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2003
    star 6
    It's odd that an unimportant character is the chief antagonist of Attack of the Clones.

    No, Palpatine is. Not only that but he has a lot more screen time than Dooku.
  20. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    Exactly Loco.

    Each movie has to stand on its own merits as well as be part of the larger picture.

    and if you are going to have a mysterious villian, and I only know a few movies pull it off, Usual suspects and Se7en as examples in both cases the villian was talked about A LOT and they were present even when they weren't in the room, because the threat they created was everywhere, in the fear of those talking about them. And when they show up it feels like they've been around all along.

    Dooku could of been built up into an amazing character even if he did show up at the third act, but Lucas didn't do this. He should of made us chomp at the bit for his arrival, but instead its like "who cares"

    DarthMaul was a fairly one dimenisonal character, but he had presence and he wasn't complicated, you knew what you were getting right away. Lucas made Dooku very complicated but didn't take the time to realize him properly.
  21. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "The Emperor warrants the mention in ANH. He did something important--dissolving the senate."

    Then Dooku should of done something important in TPM.

    Characters should be doing important things as often in possible as movies, otherwise they are not interesting
  22. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "The idea that this whole thing is about Anakin is just Lucas propaganda.

    Half the stuff that happens in the PT has nothing to do with Anakin and, if you watch the OT, Vader is far from being the focus."


    Yep
  23. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
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    No, Palpatine is. Not only that but he has a lot more screen time than Dooku.


    Chief antagonist in that Dooku is the one who is out there "doing the dirty work," if you will. The one who goes up against the PROtagonists. The visible villain, and as visible villain, we needed to be familiar with him so that he could at least be effective.
  24. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Even if Dooku was placed in Episode I, where do you fit him in?"

    Look at it this way. Imagine dooku was ki adi mundi. Then even having that little line in TPM "your thoughts dwell on your mother" would make him fighting anakin at the end of AOTC have more weight. Heck you could have him say that line again to anger anakin and make him fight poorly.


    There, and thats not anything huge, it hardly makes him a well developed character, but its still Waaaaay better.

    Its not like we need to establish Ki adi mundi? Is he more important then Dooku?


    whostheBossk likes this.
  25. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    the way it is now you have dooku fighting Obi-wan a guy he just met. Anakin, someone he's never met. And yoda, somebody who he apparently knew but its doesn't matter because yoda is not a main character and niether mentioned the other until that scene.

    then the whole thing ends in a draw.


    Is this was passes as a climax these days?
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