Why Wasn't Count Dooku in Episode I?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by chopman, Apr 17, 2005.

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  1. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    So we'd basically have 2 Anakins?"

    No, we'd have One Qui-Gon instead of Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon2(Dooku), and Qui-Gon3(Sifo-Dyas).

    Rebel Scumb
    Good point about 3 carbon-copy characters taking away from one strong one. Qui-Gon, Dooku, Sifo, they're all the same and thus: like the same character. So, why not make them one? :)
  2. LazyDivey98 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2005
    star 2
    Good point about 3 carbon-copy characters taking away from one strong one. Qui-Gon, Dooku, Sifo, they're all the same and thus: like the same character. So, why not make them one?

    Qui-gon does not crave power. If you keep in mind the most important line Dooku says, "I have become more powerful than any Jedi," you'll understand the key to Dooku's exit from the Jedi order and also Anakin's fall. (Anakin had made the same pledge earlier)

    Qui-gon's distance from the council stemmed from his reliance on the living force. He believed in the council but still does what he must. Qui-gon and Dooku are completely different characters, they are only both mavericks in the Jedi order, but have completely different reasons for being so.

    "Qui-gon Jinn would never join you." --Obi
  3. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    its been my expirence with scripts that merging multiple characters into one is almost always beneficial.

    But then again I still think Anakin should be the one showing up at the geonosis arena with the clone army instead of Yoda ;)


    "Qui-gon does not crave power. If you keep in mind the most important line Dooku says, "I have become more powerful than any Jedi," you'll understand the key to Anakin's fall. (Anakin had made the same pledge earlier)

    Qui-gon's distance from the council stemmed from his reliance on the living force. He believed in the council but still does what he must. Qui-gon and Dooku are completely different characters, they are only both mavericks in the Jedi order, but have completely different reasons for being so.

    "Qui-gon Jinn would never join you." --Obi"



    Obviously if we change one thing we are open to the idea of changing many things.

    If GL can make Greedo shoot first 20 years after the fact than we can certain change around the events of the PT in a theoretical context.

    The goal is to make the best most interesting story as possible while conforming to the continuity and style set forth by the OT
  4. chopman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    >the reason why dooku wasnt in episode one is quite >simple
    >-lucas didnt think of dooku yet

    Translation: poor planning/writing

    >Dooku, Maul, Grievous don't need character development - they are developed already, they don't need it - you just want it that way.

    Maul is a 1 dimensional character that has no backstory and doesn't need it BECAUSE he is 1 dimensional. Dooku is introduced with tons of backstory, the surface of which isn't even touched.

    Hence: poor planning/writing

    >With the vastness of this story and galaxy, it's impossible to give every character the screentime they need to show their developments and whatnot.

    As I understand it, this is GL's story coming from his brain, so he has the ability to make it whatever he wants. If he wants certain characters to be highlighted, then they will be despite how big his world is or how many characters there are. He can always change things to make them fit better. It's HIS story to change around.
  5. LazyDivey98 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2005
    star 2
    the reason why dooku wasnt in episode one is quite >simple
    >-lucas didnt think of dooku yet


    You know this?

    I find it hard to believe that when he wrote TPM it never occurred to him that he would need a new Sith villian in EP2. I'm sure GL was aware Maul died in TPM and would need replaced, he wrote it!

    Obviously if we change one thing we are open to the idea of changing many things.

    If GL can make Greedo shoot first 20 years after the fact than we can certain change around the events of the PT in a theoretical context


    We're not talking about the timing of a laser fire. We're talking about deep seeded beliefs of major characters. I'm simply stating how Qui-gon's character is different from Dooku's. You can still combine them if you want, but I believe it is false and a gross over simplification to lump them in as "the same."
  6. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    exactly chopman

    and there is more then enough fluff in TPM and AOTC that can be axed in favour of a strong well plotted trilogy of prequels

    we don't need dexter jettster, or all those horrid Naboo romance scenes, or Jira, or Kitser, or gungans, or a 1000 other things that are all just details


    we NEED:

    anakin to meet obi-wan
    anakin to be a great pilot
    Obi-wan and anakin to be good friends
    Obi-wan to take it upon himself to train anakin
    Obi-wan to believe he is more then capable of doing so
    Palpatine to some how create the empire
    Obi-wan to serve bail organa in the clone wars
    the clone wars to happen
    the jedi to be wiped out
    Anakin to turn to the darkside
    anakin to meet some girl, get her pregnant
    the girl must have twins who are seperated at birth, and the girl should die, she should be beautiful and sad at some point in a way leia can remember
    introduce Owen and Beru as characters who are at odds with Obi-wan for taking Anakin away (preferably in a fashion better then Lucas presented in AOTC)
    anakin must recieve horrible injuries that put him the armour

    thats what needs to happen

    logically, it makes sense for the emperor to have an apprentice before anakin, because a)the set up for a mirror to the end of ROTJ has always seemed a foregone conclusion
    b)the PT needs a front and center villian whom the heros can fight, and who can bring about a lightsaber duel in each film

    Everything else is just padding. There is nothing about Padme's character other then what I listed above that is Essential to her character. She doesn't need to be the axis of the plot as she was in tpm and aotc, she doesn't need to be a politician or even be a main character (though it makes sense to have a female lead)

    all the other elements of the story are subject to change, and should be crafted in the way that presents the best trio of movies possible
  7. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "I find it hard to believe that when he wrote TPM it never occurred to him that he would need a new Sith villian in EP2."

    he knew he would need one, but didn't put any thought into who it would be. thats all documented in the art of aotc book

    it was just going to be another darth maul type, and then for a while it was going to be assaj ventress.

    Bare in mind how much he adds into the films after the fact. Look at the scenes that were added into aotc in post, the dooku obi-wan scene, the palpatine anakin scene, among others. these are two of the most pivotal points of the story and they were both afterthoughts

    likewise look at how much of the movies Lucas doesn't even come up with anymore, the animatics department is basically conceiving and directing all the big action sequences now
  8. LazyDivey98 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2005
    star 2
    but we also know that Sidious did not have time to start from scratch. It only makes sense that it would be a fallen Jedi.
  9. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    not really

    the whole idea that sith and jedi need to be trained from birth is an invent of aotc, or at the very best TPM.

    the OT showed that a jedi could be trained in a relatively short amount of time, I see no reason why a sith would be different.
  10. LazyDivey98 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2005
    star 2
    because that sith would have to fight better than Maul. Luke may have been trained in a short amount of time, but he was fighting, as GL said, a man who was mostly machine. I think Maul would have cut Luke down in short order. Also, Sidious needed a Jedi to erase the files, order clones, all that stuff we're still debating who did. ;)
  11. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    accept none of that stuff gets explained so it would be better not to be included at all.

    and whose to say the new appentice wouldn't be able to fight well? perhaps they were a warrior before becoming a sith.

    the way the OT explained it I always assumed that they don't really teach saber skills, the force just improves your ability in all things, if you set your mind and trust your feelings to a battle, the force will aid you in it.
  12. NirvanaPhil Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Reason - He wasn't created yet. Lucas didn't plan ahead and write them all at once like he did with the old trilogy. Instead he waits till the last second. That's why the news ones kinda suck.
  13. chopman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    >but we also know that Sidious did not have time to start from scratch. It only makes sense that it would be a fallen Jedi.

    Just to add to what Rebel Scum said, in TPM Sidious just APPEARS with Maul. We have no idea who Maul is, how old he is, nothing. If he can just appear like that, then why can't another, stronger minion appear in AOTC? And as for erasing the files, I think that if he can blind the ENTIRE JC, then Sidious can find some way to blind their knowledge of the stuff that he doesn't want them to know. I mean isn't he already doing that anyway?

    Lastly, it's not so far fetched to think that Sidious figured that the JC would kill Maul and to keep a stronger dark Jedi hidden somewhere considering how much pre-planning and manipulation goes into everything he does.
  14. LazyDivey98 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2005
    star 2
    the way the OT explained it I always assumed that they don't really teach saber skills

    I used to think that as well, but we know from AOTC they at least practice it.
  15. LazyDivey98 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2005
    star 2
    Lastly, it's not so far fetched to think that Sidious figured that the JC would kill Maul and to keep a stronger dark Jedi hidden somewhere considering how much pre-planning and manipulation goes into everything he does

    yeah, but you know what Yoda said about two.
    Also, I don't think Sidious expected Maul to be killed, "You have been well trained my young apprentice, they will be no match for you." Of course he could have just been blowing smoke up his...
  16. Okeimai_Saber Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    the OT showed that a jedi could be trained in a relatively short amount of time, I see no reason why a sith would be different.

    That is because Luke is being trained as a Jedi for the purpose of redeeming Anakin. He is also an exceptional character because he too, like his father is strong in the Force. Yoda reluctantly takes him under his wing also, but does so because he along with Leia, is the last hope for the light side of the force. He must face Vader not just to become a Jedi but because he must redeem Anakin.

    accept none of that stuff gets explained so it would be better not to be included at all.

    Well it seems people have a hard time with what's been explained already so you're right, it would be better to not include it at all.

    Lastly, it's not so far fetched to think that Sidious figured that the JC would kill Maul and to keep a stronger dark Jedi hidden somewhere considering how much pre-planning and manipulation goes into everything he does.

    Interesting idea although the Terry Brooks novel says otherwise for TPM and basically it's saying that Sidious would have to replace Maul and that wasn't going to be easy. Which for me personally means that he didn't have anybody in waiting. And besides, there can only be two Sith at a time so he's not going to have another apprentice (in waiting) but possibly somebody in mind. Dooku is an interesting bad guy who truly offers intrigue but in the grand scheme of things he's not the main bad guy and the story's not about him. So yes we are left to wonder.

    I would also like to quote today's USA Today front page which says that, "Lucas says,'Star Wars revolves around Darth Vader'". You can certainly give your opinion about who is important and who is not according to George. You can certainly give your opinion about how bad of a writer George Lucas is, but your opinion of importance is not based on truth.
    Therefore, lots of cool characters with a lot of back story potential, but the story is about Anakin. And I believe Lucas is pointing that out so the misunderstanding is cleared up because that is what he had in mind all along in writing the Star Wars saga whether the fans understand it or not.

    And I also would like to apologize if I offended anyone on this site. To me, even though I am a big fan of Star Wars and love how George wrote it, I have a hard time accepting that people don't take it for what it is and enjoy it for what it is, instead of criticize it.

    Sure a lot of spins would be cool. Like I saw a comic once on what could have happened if such and such didn't take place.... And it had Luke, Leia, and a Redeemed Darth Vader going after Palpatine together. That was cool.

    I think Obi-Wan is the coolest character of the Prequel trilogy because he's so average in ability, yet so noble and good and reaches beyond his potential. But that's just me.
  17. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    Here's where I have a problem.

    We learn from the new books coming out that dooku kills sifo dyas. Now we know sifo died almost ten years ago, which means he died not long after tpm. So if Dooku killed him then, that would mean he was a sith during tpm or soon afterwards, he must not have liked being a jedi???

    Maul was the sith during tpm. And Dooku claims to have 'learned about the corruption in the senate. that it was under the influence of a sith lord.' and therefore decided to switch sides at around that time.

    When did that happen? Was it a month or two after tpm that the Viceroy came to him for help, WHILE HE WAS IN PRISON. A year?

    'almost ten years ago.' i'm guessing that's 9 and a 1/2 or 3/4

    So if we draw a timeline that's satisfying to everyone: Dooku was doing missions or whatever during tpm. Month after the viceroy is aquitted and set free, he comes to dooku, a jedi, for help FOR WHATEEVR REASON!11 8-} Dooku calls sidious and says he wants to join the team. Sidious says "ok, you meet the requirements. Start tommorrow morning." Sifo orders an army and Dooks killz him soon after. Then goes to the archives to erase kamino. This all takes place within a year after tpm...

    unbeeelievable....

    Dooku truly is a fascinating guy. Way more-so than Anakin. Imagine! This is YODA'S padawan! And he just joins the sith without a care in the world...

    :eek: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO That's IMPOssssibbleelee!!!

    His story would have made an awesome trilogy.
  18. Okeimai_Saber Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Remember that Dooku is a liar. He doesn't tell Obi-Wan the truth. That he is working himself for the Dark Lord of the Sith. The Viceroy doesn't expect it. How do you know all the history of how it happened? Why would the Viceroy go to a Jedi? They ruined his plans to occupy Naboo. Unless he was an ex-Jedi already. Dooku used his lying manipulative abilities to gain favor with the Viceroy to assist Sidious in starting the clone wars. It was planned by Sidious. The whole purpose of the invasion of Naboo was to bring Palpatine to power. Sidious didn't know the Jedi would intervene until Gunray told him. He doesn't know everything that is going to happen. He is powerful enough to forsee a lot, but not that powerful. His goal of becoming Chancellor was accomplished, but I honestly don't think that he foresaw Maul's death. So many things are still developing at that time. I think he knows he wants to destroy the Jedi but at this point he hasn't completely clouded their minds yet. It's all complicated for sure but Sidious isn't suicidal. Lol. He didn't know that Luke would persuade his father to kill him. Remember, there are two forces at work here dark and light. The Jedi are blind to the Dark Side and vice versa. But the Dark Side has the upper hand for sure until the OT.

    Dooku is still a pawn, but a good one for sure. He is the best candidate to replace Maul. How that all happens, we don't know for sure. Yes that is an interesting idea but he's not the main character, the story is about Anakin/Darth Vader/the Chosen One. Yoda had a lot of Padawans. My heck look how old the dude is. All of them are substantial. But just because one of them became a Sith doesn't mean he is any more than what he is, a supporting character. He is still a pawn. Does that make anyone who starts out as a Sith less significant than him? There is a difference. Because Anakin destroys the Emporer and brings balance to the force, he is way more significant.
  19. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "That is because Luke is being trained as a Jedi for the purpose of redeeming Anakin."

    Luke was being trained to KILL Vader and Palpatine. Yoda and Obi-wan consider anakin to be beyond redemption

    "And I also would like to apologize if I offended anyone on this site. To me, even though I am a big fan of Star Wars and love how George wrote it, I have a hard time accepting that people don't take it for what it is and enjoy it for what it is, instead of criticize it."

    No offense taken, I'm enjoying the discussion. I understand you're side of it. I was a huge defender of TPM when everyone bashed it. I DO love SW. I know it might not seem that way, and I'm only critical because I feel GL has set a high standard and thats how I measure him.

    "Sure a lot of spins would be cool. Like I saw a comic once on what could have happened if such and such didn't take place.... And it had Luke, Leia, and a Redeemed Darth Vader going after Palpatine together. That was cool."

    That does sound cool. i should hunt that down.

    "I think Obi-Wan is the coolest character of the Prequel trilogy because he's so average in ability, yet so noble and good and reaches beyond his potential. But that's just me."

    Well he's definitely the character who goes from young student to old master, so its neat to see the evolution.


    "Here's where I have a problem.

    We learn from the new books coming out that dooku kills sifo dyas. Now we know sifo died almost ten years ago, which means he died not long after tpm. So if Dooku killed him then, that would mean he was a sith during tpm or soon afterwards, he must not have liked being a jedi???

    Maul was the sith during tpm. And Dooku claims to have 'learned about the corruption in the senate. that it was under the influence of a sith lord.' and therefore decided to switch sides at around that time.

    When did that happen?"


    that explanation was poorly thought out by the author and I choose to ignore it.

    I'm sticking with Palpatine posed as a dead jedi named sifo-dyas, who died of unimportant circumstances that had nothing to do with the larger saga and happened before TPM.

    Sidious ordered the clones, dooku hired jango. thats how I see it. thats how it was explicitly explained in the original script for AOTC, and it makes more sense then the bunk novel explanation
  20. BleepsSweepsCreeps Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2004
    star 1
    In terms of pure story-telling, Dooku should have most definitely appeared in TPM in some form or another for at least five minutes. A secret conversation with Qui Gon while on Coruscant perhaps.

    Let's clear a few things first:

    - Dooku IS the antagonist of AOTC, just as Vader is in TESB. Sideous may be the story's true evil, but he is not antagonist of those films.

    - The Star Wars Saga is NOT soley about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Therefore it is necessary to tell the story of other characters as well in order to further flesh out the universe the story inhabits.

    - Making Dooku the former padawan of Yoda was and still is the worst plot device of the saga thus far. It's far too convenient for my tastes, not to mention it hurts Yoda's mysticism alluded to by Ben in ROTJ about training a Jedi.


    "He must face Vader not just to become a Jedi but because he must redeem Anakin."

    He WAS being trained to kill Vader, not redeem him. That is why both Obi Wan and Yoda refrained from telling Luke who Vader really was. Make no mistakes about it, Luke was being trained so that he'd have all he needed in order to conquer both Vader and Sideous.


  21. Spare_Parts Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    - Dooku IS the antagonist of AOTC, just as Vader is in TESB. Sideous may be the story's true evil, but he is not antagonist of those films.

    Agreed.

    - The Star Wars Saga is NOT soley about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Therefore it is necessary to tell the story of other characters as well in order to further flesh out the universe the story inhabits.

    Technically true, but keep in mind you have to fit everything into a 2 ½ hour movie so some things must be left out. Having said that I wish the deleted lost 20 scene was put back in AOTC. I think it would satisfy a lot of the complaints about Dooku?s lack of backstory.

    - Making Dooku the former padawan of Yoda was and still is the worst plot device of the saga thus far. It's far too convenient for my tastes, not to mention it hurts Yoda's mysticism alluded to by Ben in ROTJ about training a Jedi.

    Every jedi is a former padawan of Yoda except Anakin who was immediately paired off with Obi Wan. Yoda teaches them until a certain age and then padawans are paired off with individual masters. The younglings scene in AOTC highlights this. Also look at the database on the main SW site.

    Plus in my mind, it was a veiled insult when Yoda called Dooku an ?old padawan? i.e. ?Dooku you may be mature and learned but you don?t even come close to me. I?m a 800 year old jedi master.?
  22. chopman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 1
    >Interesting idea although the Terry Brooks novel says otherwise for TPM and basically it's saying that Sidious would have to replace Maul and that wasn't going to be easy. Which for me personally means that he didn't have anybody in waiting. And besides, there can only be two Sith at a time so he's not going to have another apprentice (in waiting) but possibly somebody in mind. Dooku is an interesting bad guy who truly offers intrigue but in the grand scheme of things he's not the main bad guy and the story's not about him. So yes we are left to wonder.


    According to what we learn in AOTC, Dooku was a Jedi during the events of TPM when Maul was Sidious's apprentice. So even though Sidious had an apprentice, who's to say that he wasn't already considering someone to take his place and had his eye on Dooku, someone who had differences of opinion with the council?
  23. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    It would appear that higher ranking jedi such as Doe-Koo, as lucas would say, are easily drawn to the dark side, discrediting everything the jedi and their code have established over a thousand years. Therefore, lessening the surprising impact of Anakin's decision to side with Palpatine. The jedi can't even hold on to one of their most respected members, so how in the world can they keep jedi that aren't trained from birth, like Anakin.

    And then we have luke, who's hardly trained at all.
    Strange and disturbing, Dooku's role is.
  24. Spare_Parts Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 1
    ^ The jedi can't even hold on to one of their most respected members, so how in the world can they keep jedi that aren't trained from birth, like Anakin.

    That?s exactly why the council first rejected training Anakin. He was too old. They knew the dangers of forming emotional attachments. Especially ones formed in childhood between parent and child. It?s only after Obi Wan insisted that Anakin be trained that the council agreed.

    And then we have luke, who's hardly trained at all.

    Again Yoda insists Luke is too old to start training. But by the OT the jedi philosophy starts to change as shown by Luke. No longer are you forbidden to form attachments but they can also be used for good as well as bad. Luke?s attachment to his friends gets him into trouble in ESB but his attachment to his father also ultimately redeems Anakin in ROTJ.

    As for Dooku, his character also suggests that the jedi have it wrong in the PT. Even though he followed the jedi ways of being trained at birth he still chose the darkside. It just highlights the fact the code stating padawans must be trained from birth doesn?t immunise against jedi?s turning to the darkside. Preventing jedi's from forming attachments in childhood or otherwise doesn't work, and that part of the code was proved wrong by the end of the saga by Luke.


    my 2 cents.
  25. Okeimai_Saber Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    >Luke was being trained to KILL Vader and Palpatine. Yoda and Obi-wan consider anakin to be beyond redemption

    No he was not being trained to kill him. Obi-Wan let himself get killed by Vader. He put up a good fight. Luke was being trained to face him. Never at any time did Obi-Wan or Yoda mention the word kill. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan are with and without hope concerning Vader. They both love him even though he is fallen. They have lost hope yes, but they still have it. Fans just assume that Luke is supposed to kill him without enough evidence. That is why George is making the PT. Why did he need to face him? Because he is the chosen one. To redeem him. To get inside his head.

    No, Dooku nor Darth Vader are the lead antagonists. They are both pawns. That is why Vader's turning to the Dark Side is such a tragedy. Because he is the chosen one and he never realized his potential as a Jedi. He took the shortcuts and became evil.

    Like Lucas said the OT is about the redemption of Darth Vader. It's because people didn't understand early on what was really going on that many fans believed this. That he was the main bad guy. Nobody knew what significance the Emporer had until ROTJ. That's what makes the PT even more significant.

    Yes it's complex to try and fit the Phantom Menace to AOTC. But I honestly believe that George wanted to create certain events that were hidden in TPM to show how blind the Jedi were to make that point. And the fact that Dooku doesn't appear until AOTC furthers my point that he is not the chief antagonist, it's Sidious. Yes, he's the leader of the Seperatists. But how can you say that that's of any significance if it's just a ploy by the Dark Lord of the Sith to get into power, destroy the Jedi, and create the Empire, and convert Anakin to the Dark Side. How Dooku and Palpatine met is an intriguing idea. But he's just a pawn. A throwaway not just by Lucas, but by Sidious.

    >The Star Wars Saga is NOT soley about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Therefore it is necessary to tell the story of other characters as well in order to further flesh out the universe the story inhabits.

    Did you write Star Wars? No George Lucas did. That is what he said it is about. Read the cover of USA Today yesterday. It states, "Lucas says 'Star Wars revolves around Darth Vader'" Yes other characters are important, but it is his story and that of his offspring, Luke and Leia. Other characters get as much development as they need in the time alotted to make it a movie.
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