Why Wasn't Count Dooku in Episode I?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by chopman, Apr 17, 2005.

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  1. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "No he was not being trained to kill him. Obi-Wan let himself get killed by Vader. He put up a good fight. Luke was being trained to face him. Never at any time did Obi-Wan or Yoda mention the word kill."

    Luke "I can't kill my own father"

    Obi-wan "then the emperor has already won. You were our only hope"

    Luke"there is still good in him"

    Obi-wan "hes more machine now then man. twisted and evil"

    "Fans just assume that Luke is supposed to kill him without enough evidence."

    See the above quotes.

    Conversely there is nothing in any of the movies that suggest that Ben and Yoda want Luke to redeem Anakin. Never do they mention this, if that is there goal you would think they would say so.

    By the end of Ep3 they will believe Anakin to be beyond redepemtion. Hence why Ben considers him dead and would send his own son to kill him.


    "That is why George is making the PT. Why did he need to face him? Because he is the chosen one. To redeem him. To get inside his head."

    When GL made the OT he hadn't thought up the 'chosen one' concept.

    "No, Dooku nor Darth Vader are the lead antagonists."

    I suppose now you're going to argue that Palpatine is the main villian in ANH?

    You didn't listen to what I said before. Its possible for a character to be a pawn within the context of the movies world, but cinematically be the main villian.

    "Like Lucas said the OT is about the redemption of Darth Vader."

    Lucas says that now. He changes his storys as often as he changes his movies.
  2. Nordom Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    "Like Lucas said the OT is about the redemption of Darth Vader. It's because people didn't understand early on what was really going on that many fans believed this. That he was the main bad guy. Nobody knew what significance the Emporer had until ROTJ. That's what makes the PT even more significant. "

    Lucas has also said that the OT was the story about Luke Skywalker, this was long before he made the PT.
    Originally the emperor was not a Sith and the redemption of Vader was something that came in later.

    "No, Dooku nor Darth Vader are the lead antagonists. They are both pawns. That is why Vader's turning to the Dark Side is such a tragedy. Because he is the chosen one and he never realized his potential as a Jedi. He took the shortcuts and became evil. "

    No, antagonist is by definition someone who opposes or acts as a foil to the protagonist. Anatagonist does not always mean villan, in "Top Gun" Val Kilmers IceMan is the antagonist to Tom Cruises character but he is not really a villan, the same in "The madness of King George" where Ian Holms Dr. Willis is the antagonist to Nigel Hawthornes King George III. In the OT Luke is the main protagonist and Vader is his main opposition so he is the antagonist.
    In ANH Tarkin is the antagonist to Leia while Vader is the antagonist to Luke and Obi-Wan. In ESB Vader is the main antagonist and only in Jedi does the emperor become something of an antagonist. The emperor exists in ANH and ESB but he is not the antagonist of those two movies.

    In AotC Jango and Dooku oppose the heores so they are what the protagonists have to deal with so they are the antagonists. Simply because they work for Sidious does not make him the main antagonist. Take the first Terminator movie, Arnolds character is programmed by SkyNet and acts on SkyNets orders but is therefore SkyNet the antagonist of that film?

    "Did you write Star Wars? No George Lucas did. That is what he said it is about. Read the cover of USA Today yesterday. It states, "Lucas says 'Star Wars revolves around Darth Vader'" Yes other characters are important, but it is his story and that of his offspring, Luke and Leia. Other characters get as much development as they need in the time alotted to make it a movie. "

    Like I said, earlier lucas said that the OT was about Luke, that it was Lukes story, he faced his father and redeemed him from his evil ways. If Lucas wants to change his mind what the story is about the he certainly is free to do so and storytelling is always flexible.

    Developing other characters in turn develops your main character, both his friends and also his enemies. Having a well developed hero square off an equally well developed villan is often more dramatic than having the same hero fight a bunch of random bad guys.
    So the antagonist serves the story and builds the character of the protagonist and often, the better the antagonist, the better the protagonist.

    Lastly about the topic at hand, Dooku could certainly have used a bigger role and more character. I have mostly enjoyed the PT thus far but if I have a small nit, it is that I do not feel that Lucas takes full advantage of the three film situation. Consider, unlike the OT, with the PT Lucas knows that he would make three films but I feel he does not make the best use of it.

    Regards
    Nordom
  3. Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    exactly, combing maul dooku grievous and maybe even quigon into one well rounded sith apprentice character for all three films would of worked well. when anakin strikes him/her down in ep3 it would carry a lot of weight, where as if anakin kills dooku its not really that big a deal.
    whostheBossk likes this.
  4. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    We should all join forces and create a thread for things we could ADD to make TPM/AOTC flow better.

    Basically, take the same stories Lucas has conjured and add things in and take things out to make the films fit together and enhance the story, but not complete overhauls.

    Then, we could trim it up, take stuff out, revise it, etc.

    A "PT as one six hour movie" thread or something. :)

    We could start out by ADDING stuff. Stuff to show, etc.

    How about it?
  5. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    Sounds like a good plan. Maybe ours will be better than Lucas' whenever he gets around to rerererererereleasing his unfinished films.

    Oh and rebel, that's a good idea. I'd throw Mace in there two. This whole 'purple' blade thing definetely makes him far more ambiguous than the evil-looking black-wearing red-saber-using Count Dooku. What if, Mace was discovered to be the one who started the separtist army and was also a top member of the council, on par with yoda, etc. Wouldn't that be one hell of a surprise? It'd be a nice connection to how heartless he was to Anakin in TPM. Wow, that would have been a great way to do it.

    heck, I believe that's how it was planned original but then the chance to cast Chris Lee came up and making Sam Jackson a bad guy wasn't what the popular actor wanted? 8-}
  6. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    This whole 'purple' blade thing definetely makes him far more ambiguous than the evil-looking black-wearing red-saber-using Count Dooku.

    Yah but the problem is, he's a SITH LORD. Darth Tyranus. Bad guys get red sabers. There is no ambiguity about this!

  7. Harabec Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2001
    star 4
    Strilo, that sounds like a mean-spirited stereotype. Surely that is a violation of the TOS.

    What next? "All Jedi have mullets"? Your intolerance sickens me!
  8. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    Bad guys get red sabers. There is no ambiguity about this!


    Strilo, that sounds like a mean-spirited stereotype. Surely that is a violation of the TOS.

    Hey, if the saber fits...


    What next? "All Jedi have mullets"?

    Jeff Foxworthy: You know you're a redneck jedi when....


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