CT Why wasn't Star Wars able to win Oscar?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Feb 24, 2013.

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  1. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
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    It affected one whole generation at least. ESB is the best as one independent movie but wasn't even nominated, ANH got nominated but lost to Annie Hall. How many people still remember this film compare to SW?
  2. Bobatron Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    It looks like what often happens. A popular movie gets a lot of buzz (was it even called "buzz" in 1977?) and gets nominated, but by the time of the Academy Awards at the end of the awards season, the momentum winds down and the nomination is considered enough of a consolation prize. Sequels rarely get the same kind of attention. The first movie was a fresh new phenomenon.
    It is notable that Annie Hall was released even earlier in 1977 than STAR WARS.
    Last edited by Bobatron, Feb 24, 2013
  3. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    How many people remember How Green Was My Valley, compared to Citizen Kane? (1941)
    How many people remember Oliver!, compared to 2001: A Space Odyssey? (1968)
    How many people remember Kramer vs Kramer, compared to Apocalypse Now? (1979)
    How many people remember Ordinary People, compared to Raging Bull? (1980)
    How many people remember Dances With Wolves, compared to Goodfellas? (1990)
  4. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
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    Annie Hall is widely regarded as a classic. IMDB rates it at 8.2 from 110,684 votes, and ranks it as the 155th best film ever. Considering the fact that it's not a scifi (so therefore under-represented on the internet) and it's directed by someone as deeply unpopular as Woody Allen, that's no mean feat.

    Star Wars: ANH is ranked at 16, with 511,133 votes and is rated as an 8.7, but it's a scifi/fantasy and is therefore over-represented on the internet.

    Based on this limited data it looks like 1/5 of the number of people who still remember Star Wars remember Annie Hall. HTH.

    Those are all great films though.
    Last edited by V-2, Feb 25, 2013
  5. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
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    Post-1977 SW and the Academy Awards don't mix well.
    Maybe it got started by GL's rightful falling out with the director's guild, who knows.

    One thing's for certain though, the PT was completely snubbed by the Academy. Check out what they've were nominated and lost against in 1999, 2002 and 2005 and tell me with a straight face that the Oscars are more than just a popularity contest with an agenda.
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  6. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    Okay...

    Just looking at best picture nominations:

    1999:
    The Sixth Sense
    The Green Mile
    American Beauty
    The Cider House Rules
    The Insider

    There's a very strong case for all of these being better films than TPM. Very strong indeed. I don't think any of them made more cash than TPM either....

    2002:
    The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
    Chicago
    Gangs of New York
    The Hours
    The Pianist

    Not as strong a case as 1999, but still I'd hate to defend AOTC against any of these.

    2005:
    Brokeback Mountain
    Crash
    Munich
    Good Night, and Good Luck
    Capote

    I don't think I've seen the last 3 on this list, but even the first two are cinematographically superior to ROTS.

    You have to remember that the PT looks like crap when compared to, well, more or less anything. Don't misunderstand me, I love those films, but they look so artificial and the acting/direction sucks.
  7. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

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    Mar 29, 2002
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    Watch the personal attacks-Darth Boba
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Feb 25, 2013
  8. gezvader28 Force Ghost

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    Mar 22, 2003
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    it's ridiculous that ESB wasn't even nominated .
  9. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 31, 2012
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    Far from trolling, I don't think the person is trying to get a rise out of you or anyone else at all, he is obviously expressing his honest opinion about the quality of the films and even goes out of his way to indicate that he loves the films.

    It would be interesting to hear the list of films released in any of the same years that you thought looked worse than the PT.

    It perplexes me why anyone would think Sith is a good enough movie to rise to the level of "Best Picture" compared to any of the other movies that year. Critically, which is what counts when we are talking about these awards, Sith did not do well. Even the RT score of 80% has fresh reviews that say things like:

    "The bar has been set so low in mainstream Hollywood movies that it's not even worth seriously analyzing this stuff"
    and,
    "As the finale approached, I just didn't want to leave my seat, because that meant it's all over... supposedly."
    and,
    "The best-looking Star Wars episode of all, if not the most exciting, most imaginative or most affecting."

    The critics did have good things to say about the movie as well, don't get me wrong, but it was sort of a technicality. You would be challenged to find more than a handful of reviews that didn't engage in some either minor or major qualifying in order to come up with those good things to say. According to RT, non-critics liked it less than the critics. Though I can't say for sure how much popularity, (or lack of popularity compared to the seemingly lukewarm critical reaction in this case,) matters in the Academy Award nomination process, I'm sure it didn't help.
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Feb 25, 2013
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  10. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
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    And SW is the legend that influenced a whole generation.

    IDMB is not a way to see how many people remember it.
    Annie Hall search result 3,070,000
    Star Wars 324,000,000
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Feb 25, 2013
  11. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I'm not trolling in the slightest. I honestly don't rate the direction and visual manipulations of the PT. The location stuff is fine (though not as rich or stunning as anything in ANH) but all the green screen stuff is mediocre at best, much of it is visually off-putting, if not aesthetically disturbing. The CGI space stuff looks okay.

    We'd expect people on a SW forum to argue in favour of SW getting awards, but I don't think the PT deserved Oscars for direction, acting, or visual effects. Costumes, maybe. Sound design and music, probably, but the sound owed so much to the original trilogy so I can see why the committee would favour fresh material.

    I feel like I'm always saying 'hindsight bias' to you, but... It isn't the function of awards committees to predict which films may 'influence a whole generation'. Even if they could predict a film's enduring legacy, the function of the Oscars is not strictly speaking a popularity contest either.

    It's interesting that scifi generates such high volumes of discussion. I remember reading an Asimov essay from the 70s which questioned why Star Trek attracted the type of fan who attends conventions, when far more popular television shows like soap operas, sitcoms and dramas didn't...

    Genre fiction attracts certain types of people who are more inclined to obsess over details with like minded people; the internet is an area where such activity flourishes. Pornography would get more Oscars too, if internet statistics had that much to say about the sort of films people enjoy.
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  12. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
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    Star Wars was a HUGE hit in 1977 and created the box office record. I've watched both Annie Hall and Ordinary People, they are good movies but not as good as EP IV and EP V, not to say the huge shock EP IV brought to people in that time.

    No, EP IV's box office is nearly 20 times higher than Annie Hall. It's safe to say SW fans' numbers are much much bigger than Annie Hall's.
  13. V-2 Force Ghost

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    Dec 10, 2012
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    Yet the fact remains that the Oscars are not strictly speaking a popularity contest.
  14. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    I also said as a movie people usually give more credit to SW rather than Annie Hall and Ordinary People. it's a momentum in movie history.

    Even Shakespeare in Love could win Best Picture.
  15. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Is there any point to the OP? The Academy thought Annie Hall was a better movie. Are you trying to figure out the reason for that? I ask because if that is your point, you don't seem to be very open minded about considering anyone's speculation. You just keep saying that SW was more popular. Are you just looking for us to chime in and just agree with you withoit speculating why that fact may be?
  16. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    It's not just more(much more) popular, it clearly is a momentum in the movie history, the Industrial Light&Magic Lucas created also greatly helped the special effects of movies. And it's not like Oscar didn't follow the popularity (RotK, Titanic, Gladiator), or pick much worse movies (Shakespeare in Love ).
  17. V-2 Force Ghost

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    Dec 10, 2012
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    Shakespeare In Love is not objectively worse than any Star Wars film.
  18. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Look, if you want to have this conversation then we probably have to agree that the Academy is using some type of criteria for judging films. Their method probably involves comparing the movies and asking, "Which one had better acting?; Which one had better writing?; Which one had better direction?" and so on. Using this method, it is totally plausible that they are able to put Annie Hall and Star Wars up against each other head to head and start comparing all of the hundreds of elements that go into making a film, right?

    If you can't agree that this is the probable method they use, then I'm out.
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Feb 25, 2013
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  19. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    I like the movie, but it's not on the level of Best Picture, or as good as EP IV and V.
  20. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
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    Star Wars lost because because Annie Hall got more votes. Actually I don't know how the oscar system works.

    Take the whole "BEST PICTURE" thing with a grain of salt. Usually all the best picture nominees are winners in that they are really good films.
  21. V-2 Force Ghost

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    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    ANH did actually win a bunch of Oscars anyway, it's not like it got snubbed.
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  22. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    The Legacy of Star Wars goes beyond oscars. Six great films that mean more to people than a gold statuette.

    Also, concerning cinematography. While I do thing the star wars prequel visuals are very inspired and interesting, I believe the straightforward style deals with the whole digital aspect/blue screen. Its easier to make dynamic filmmaking using the landscapes of our earth, rather than in a computer.

    At least, that's how I feel.
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  23. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    "The Sixth Sense" loses pretty much all of its impact on the second viewing-- it's basically a very long "Twilight Zone" episode. I'll call TPM a better movie than that all year long.

    "The Green Mile" is a movie I liked quite a bit when it was first out as an anti-death penalty movie. But really, it's quite in favor of punishing bad people with death (the "Wild Bill" shooting scene). And honestly, it's really hard to take the movie seriously as it uses the most inane usage of the "magical negro" archetype this side of Bagger Vance, and in circumstances that are totally divorced from historical common sense. Really, a giant black guy is going to be found in the Jim Crow era South with two dead white girls, and survive long enough to go to death row? In real life he'd be lynched just for saying hello to them.

    "American Beauty" is a good movie, and a pretty acceptable Oscar contender as far as utterly coventional choices go. Much better than the shameless awards bait of "The Cider House Rules", but nowhere near as good as the never-going-to-win "The Insider". Nowhere near as good as any number of other movies that year which should've been nominated, like "The Truman Show" or "Fight Club". And hell, forget about TPM for a moment-- the fact that that year's equivalent of a brand-new sci-fi masterpiece, "The Matrix", wasn't nominated shows how boring the Oscars have gotten.

    The first two are crap. The weakest of all the LOTR movies, and that's saying quite a bit. They get a lot of mileage from being based on a book, being filled with properly trained Brit actors, being three hours long and having the wise sense to be released during awards season. And "Chicago"? Pure crap. Bob Fosse style without any of the actual wit.

    "Gangs of New York"-- great film. No argument. By all rights this should've been Scorsese's winning year. I'd have gladly watched AOTC lose to this movie. Love it, only wish it hadn't been recut by Miramax.

    "The Hours"-- Nicole Kidman earnestly, whisperingly telling us how all women have the divine right to commit suicide, abandon their families and wear fake noses. No thanks.

    "The Pianist"-- a good movie. A great movie, actually. If only it weren't made by a child rapist.

    "Brokeback Mountain"-- I never thought a love story about gay cowboys could be this... boring.

    "Crash"-- Great film. Absolutely astounding. Daring, challenging, and confrontational about the modern world and conventional sexuality. One of David Cronenberg's best... Oh, wait. You mean the other "Crash". Sorry. Yeah, that one is mainstream crap.

    "Munich"-- Steven Spielberg turns the story of Mossad's secret war against Black September into an action movie with mommy issues of Oedipal proportions. Some of it is daring as "The Manchurian Candidate". Some of it is just sloppy and embarassing to look at (the intercutting between the flashback to the hostages' deaths and Eric Bana screwing his pregnant wife to climax got laughs when I saw it). I'd champion it as a great experiment, were it not for how the Oedipal stuff crowds out any substantive look at the politics. Still, it led to him and Kushner working together again on "Lincoln", which was better. And it's probably the closest we'll ever see to Spielberg directing Daniel Craig in a Bond movie.

    "Good Night and Good Luck"-- a good movie. Not a great movie, but it has a nice restrained sense that most other actor-turned-director projects lack in spades. That being said, I'd rather watch one of the "Ewok Adventures" than sit through it again, all things considered.

    "Capote"-- Again, it's hard to believe you can make a boring movie about Truman Capote, but here it is.

    At any rate, the Oscars are such a low bar the issue of whether or not the "Star Wars" movies got nominated is irrelevant to me. There's so much great stuff from around the world or in the indie circles that doesn't get noticed it's hardly worth getting worked up over.
  24. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I think not having Star Wars as one of the best pictures, is a loss and pity for Oscar, not Star Wars itself.
  25. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

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    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    I watched Annie Hall (1977 best picture winner, nominated with Star Wars) and it's a great movie but the amount of filmmaking skill that's poured into every frame of Star Wars does make it a superior film. Hell, just compare the frame arrangements, it's a better looking film. No knock against Annie Hall, I highly recommend it for the witty script and the structure but the imagination of how many layers there is to Star Wars is just astounding.
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Feb 25, 2013
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