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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Why were NJO wiped out? How should NSLJO devlop?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by StarWarsFan91, May 27, 2017.

  1. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    None of the above requires lightsabers. If anything, unarmed Jedi-in-training kicking ass would be considerably more impressive than what you're suggesting.
     
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  2. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Kylo also could have just "Force-Frozen" them all as he stabbed them.
     
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  3. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    But we have already gotten that before post-RoTJ Disney style, and it worked and were still getting more stories of dead men do tell tales.

    It was called the prequel era. A setting where we know most Jedi have a tragic future. A republic that will become an empire. Clones will become stormtroopers. But while we knew doom was coming, it was still a good setting to explore more.

    I wish Disney didn't pull another Jedi Order falling apart. But since we are stuck with it, at least some stories should come from it, as long as they don't make nuNJO uninteresting (such as the Jedi only staying at their academy and not getting involved in things beyond, no lightsabers, focusing to much on future Kylo Ren).

    See the world in the eyes of Jedi that are neither Luke nor Ben Solo. People who have hope towards the future and their order. Some taking action in questing to build a lightsaber and Show what the academy was like. For the 1st time in a long time, have a few Jedi be sent on a peacekeeping mission, a quest that hasn't been done in a while. Present how these new Jedi view the Order that came before, and old locations/ruins of their ancestors.

    Disney may not have a decant sized Jedi Order come about after the ST (perhaps only having a few people). So Lukes nuNJO may be the last time we see Jedi of this size.

    Though the majority will be exterminated, this era could focus one 1 or 2 people that will avoid the death that came to the rest. By the time of TFA they are not Jedi anymore, but could pop up in the post-ST world and return to Jedihood to help the next generation of Jedi. But even if none of them make it after Kylo's attack, I still want to see Jedi do Jedi things beyond what we will be getting with Luke and Rey. I prefer to not wait until whatever generation happens after the ST.
     
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  4. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    I'm not convinced they did.

    What Jedi Order was it that fell apart, exactly? Why are you under the impression that Luke's group is "decent sized"? I would imagine we're talking about a few dozen disciples here, tops. It wasn't like Luke had succeeded in rebuilding the Jedi and then everything came crashing down. Snoke and Kylo nipped things in the bud before they had a chance to progress that far.

    You're speaking as though Luke had built something that was roughly analogous to the NJO/LotF orders, with a bunch of fully trained Jedi.... but we've not been given the impression of anything like that.
     
  5. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 14, 2008
    While Lukes Academy in the nu canon isn't on the level of the NJO of the EU, so perhaps "Jedi Order" is wrong choice of words. What Snoke and Kylo did prevented the Academy from progressing to a higher state. So in a way they destroyed a future Jedi Order from rising from the Academy level.

    But this also begs the question, how big does a Jedi faction have to be to be considered a Jedi Order? If Rey later plays a role in creating another Jedi academy, and this faction limits its followers to a few dozen or less, is it not a order?
     
  6. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    I was fine with it initially. But the more that I've pondered it, the more that it just feels lazy and uncreative to me. It honestly feels like either:

    -They were afraid that it'd remind people too much of the PT.

    Or:

    -They just couldn't think of anything to do with more than one Jedi.

    So they just went "oh to heck with it, just kill them all off OFFSCREEN!!" And honestly, it really makes a movie called "RETURN of the Jedi" feel far less impressive as a result, because that didn't really happen.
     
  7. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Pablo says that calling it an "Academy" isn't actually correct.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. bizzbizz

    bizzbizz Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2015
    because they want the next order that comes to be because of rey
     
  9. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

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    Mar 6, 2007
    Well, Luke had his chance and failed. Maybe it's time for someone younger to have a crack at it.
     
  10. MartyAvidianus

    MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    May 14, 2017
    sure why not? it's a must that every new generation must destroy the reputation of the last one in order to prosper or indeed get anywhere. It is known. /sarcasm.

    If Rey cannot stand on her own legs get her own reputation with her own actions without disney shaming and humiliating Luke, then she doesn't deserve anyone's respect.
     
  11. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Nah. It's more of a theme that the old generation failed and can't do what needs to be done.

    Obi-Wan and Yoda couldn't stop the Sith and the Empire. They tried and failed. Luke succeeded where they did not.


    Luke couldn't stop Kylo Ren and the rise of the First Order. Rey, Finn and Poe succeeded where he failed.
     
  12. MartyAvidianus

    MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    May 14, 2017
    Luke builds a house. it has two stories.

    Kylo comes in and destroy the second floor. The basement and the first floor is okay still. He moves in.

    Rey comes in, kicks Kylo out, and destroy the whole house and starts building her own house across the street.

    Why can't she just repair Luke's house and add a second wing or something? But no.... She had to destroy everything.
     
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  13. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    Yeah, it was pretty disappointing.

    Well, what I'm trying to get at is that we have no real idea what the highest level of training attained by Luke's students was. A Jedi apprentice/student/disciple is not a Jedi, and without Jedi, plural, there is no "Jedi Order".

    When I say I expect Luke's group to consist of a few dozen disciples, tops, I mean exactly that. Disciples. Jedi-in-training. Not proper Jedi.

    A few dozen Jedi Knights would be enough to constitute an "Order" in my eyes, albeit a small one.
     
  14. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I'm not keen on the ageism of the new heroes having to come in and succeed where the Big Three "just could not" because they are old or something. Although I wouldn't say no to a scene in which Luke told Kylo to get off his lawn. Or even a scene in which Luke told Rey, "Hey! Point that thing somewhere else!"
     
  15. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Maybe a mix of both. I hope if they make sequels to Episode 9 they don't keep to the formula of only 1 master and 1 apprentice. If Rey returns and Luke doesn't die at the end of the ST, I want to see them with several Jedi in training. But if Disney keeps to OT imagery of very few Jedi, ToR era film will become a pipe dream.
     
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  16. MartyAvidianus

    MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    May 14, 2017
    I don't want one master one apprentice exactly. Just one master one apprentice at any given time. Luke should train Rey, then Rey needs to graduate, then Luke train Jedi Valin, Rey trains Jysella, Valin and Jysella both graduate. Then Luke train Zekk, Rey trains Tenel Ka, Valin trains Ganner, Jysella trains Tahiri.... Then Luke trains Octa Ramis... Rey trains Saba..... etc etc. and on and on on.

    Like Fibonacci number.

    I mean just because Luke trained Rey, doesn't mean after Rey becomes Jedi Knight and eventually Jedi Master, Luke should stop training new Jedi.....
     
  17. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    I thought Jedi apprentices (and younglings) were Jedi. Sure they are not Jedi Knights, but still apart of the Jedi Order. When Ahsoka was an apprentice, she was a Jedi. Before Kanan became a Jedi Knight in that force vision (caused by yoda), he was considered a Jedi.

    So I would say Lukes students were Jedi but none of them (or only a little amount) reached Jedi Knight status. Though maybe Luke would never have a knighting ceremony for his students. We don't know yet all the differences his academy had with the Old Order.
     
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  18. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    To the average guy on the street, sure, but not anyone in the know. People call (pre-ceremony) Kanan a Jedi out of ignorance. Same thing with Luke.

    "Oh, Anakin isn't a Jedi, he's still a padawan learner"


    "The Force is with you, young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi, yet."



    When it comes to Luke's pre-TFA group I'm mainly hedging until we know more. It could be that he had a small handful of "graduates", but I'm not expecting much in that regard.
     
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  19. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016

    [face_mischief]
     
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  20. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Jedi Masters can fight quite well without a lightsaber. Even Padawans are skilled at hand to hand and Force combat, as we saw in the Padawan Lost arc.

    Although I will say, I'm sure Padawan Ahsoka could beat any and all of Luke's trainees. Except maybe Kylo.

    Yes, I'm an Ahsoka fan.

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    wat
     
  22. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016

    [​IMG]
     
  23. StarWarsFan91

    StarWarsFan91 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Anyone else have issues with how Disney made Ben Solo?

    I think the ST would have worked better if Kylo Ren is not Ben.

    Instead of Disney attempting a version of Jacen Solo, Ben Solo should have never fallen to the darkside.

    Lukes NJO can still fall, and we could still have a dark jedi Kylo Ren (that being his real name).

    Its just so sad that the Han and Leia's sole kid turned evil and murdered so many including his father. It would have been a better path from that if Ben Solo was dead....not metaphorically, but dead dead by the time of the ST. Murdered by a man who used to be a close friend, Kylo Ren. But even though he died, the life he lived was a good one. Great relationship with his family, he became knighted by Luke. In some ways influenced by Anakin Solo, a shining beacon of the order. Went on adventures and saved lives. Even getting involved in a war (not on a galactic scale) and helping end it to create peace. I did wish in the nu continuity, their was a period between RoTJ and TFA that the NR and new Jedi were involved in a small scale conflict against an enemy that wasn't imperials, and saved many lives from death. Becoming a bright point for both the Republic and the Jedi before the downfall began.

    But since that's not canon, back to the tragedy of Darth Ben the Wannabe.

    When we do get content of Ben Solo during his academy days, I hope to see a period in his life, in which their isn't large foreshadowing to his fate of darkness, see him get to be a good person before things go wrong.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The Jacen Solo story is better if you stop reading before he turns to the Dark Side, and the Anakin Solo story is better overall, so I think Ben Solo should have been Anakin Solo.
     
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  25. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Oh, I definitely have issues with the whole Kylo Ren thing. I really wish they hadn't gone in that direction, but not much can be done to fix things by this point. I just hope VIII and IX's stories turn out better. Based on a few comments from those directors, sure doesn't sound like any grand plan has been established for the sequel trilogy, they're just making it up as they go along... which makes all of TFA's stupid story moments even more depressing, since doesn't sound like they were written with any higher purpose other than to be "dark and edgy".

    Given Luke hadn't managed to train up any full Knights yet before Ben went bad (he's only one person so he can only teach so much when his own training was rushed to say the least), I kind of wonder if maybe the sequels could still have worked if there had only been Jedi trainees around who couldn't do anything effective to help the Resistance. Like some telekinesis and gut feelings but definitely not the level of battlefield commander that most of the prequel Jedi served as. Then we could have a large Jedi group sooner while still having a sense of suspense as Jedi in training wouldn't be able to do much against Kylo's raw power. But I guess mainly they wanted Luke out of the way so another dead Jedi Order was the easiest way to cut any attachments to hold him back from just disappearing (as that was his life's work).