main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Why were there no further efforts to free Shmi?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Laura Roslin, Nov 3, 2015.

  1. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011

    To be honest, I see a lot of judgement of the PT characters and moralizing over their decisions in general.

    But you rarely see the same thing applied to the OT characters -- people seem to give them the benefit of the doubt whereas the worst possible interpretation is often imposed on the PT characters.

    When you look at Padmé and Leia, for example, a lot of people will get on Padmé's case for marrying Anakin due to the Tusken slaughter. And yet, I've almost never seen anyone question why Leia would get with Han after he worked for Jabba and supported a slave regime for a tidy little profit (something he never shows a shred of remorse over either). You can argue that Leia sees good in Han since he helped rescue her and then came back and helped destroy the Death Star. But couldn't you say the same thing about Anakin and Padmé too? That she saw good in Anakin since he had saved her planet as a child, was serving as a Jedi for the Republic, and, very recently, had saved her life from assassins and then went on to fight in the Clone Wars?

    When you look at the Jedi and their lack of help for Shmi, I do think it's a fair point to question. But at the same time, people completely overlook Luke and friends blowing up Jabba's sail barge and killing everyone onboard when it's very, very likely that innocent slaves would have been killed. They did all this just to rescue Han, ignoring countless innocent casualties. And none of them even checked to see if there were slaves or if they could free them before opening fire -- no, instead, they just decided that everyone onboard would die once they had made their escape.

    I'm not trying to say the OT characters are evil or anything, but it seems like they're much, much more likely to have their actions glossed over.
     
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Luke almost payed the price for not listening to Yoda and Obi-Wan's (rightful) advice. He went to save his friends but his friends were the ones who ended up saving him. Yes, he learned the truth about his father, but that was set to happen whenever they faced each other in the future. And at least at that time Luke would be ready.
     
  3. DjangoKet

    DjangoKet Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Lets not forget that Padme and Anakin never saw eachother in the 10 years between TPM and AOTC. He may have thought about her every day in that time, but she was not nearly so obsessed. She was definitely appalled by slavery still existing in the outer-rim, i imagine there are a great many things in the galaxy that she wanted to address, hence the desire to get into politics. Her solution would probably be to attempt to tackle slavery as a whole (by bringing it up in the senate - and you know how much **** gets done there :p ) rather than getting hands on, travelling to the Outer Rim and freeing one slave. As Queen and senator her priority would have been her own people, restoring faith in the republic after the the occupation of their planet and building bridges with the Gungans.

    As for the Jedi, the old order is flawed IMO. Theyre supposedly theyre there to maintain peace and justice in the Galaxy, but it seems they only do that in parts of the Galaxy that fall under the jurisdiction of the republic. So the Jedi seemingly dont operate in areas of Hutt space and the Outer Rim where there is arguably a greater need for peace and justice. If the Jedi were fighting for Justice you would think ending slavery and taking down gangsters would be top of their agenda.I really hope that if there is some sort of New Jedi Order in TFA they address a lot of the issues and mistakes made by their predecessors.
     
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Obi-Wan did say "Old Republic" not "Galaxy" in ANH:

    "For a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic".
     
    DjangoKet likes this.
  5. DjangoKet

    DjangoKet Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2015
    ah yes! you are correct. That makes a little more sense, but i still think the old Jedi order are flawed.
     
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The notion that they should be "guarding peace and justice" everywhere that's reachable is an interesting one.
     
  7. DjangoKet

    DjangoKet Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2015
    I agree it mightn't be practical to operate in the outer rim but ive always had a problem with the Jedi serving the Republic. I guess they kind of work with the Republic, but the Jedi are not above the laws set by the Republic. I mean, the force is omnipresent but the Jedi only serve within the confines of the republic. I know you have to draw a line somewhere but carrying out the will of the force must sometimes conflict with the will of the senate. Isnt their religions governing all powerful force much larger than the political system they serve under? Surely it isnt the will of the force to only maintain and justice within systems recognized as official members of the republic?
     
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Because...?
     
  9. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    The situation is very different. In our world things are a lot more "crowded" and delicate. If one country attacks another it might start a world war that affects the whole planet. If one country uses a nuclear bomb it affects huge areas. And yes, there might be a backlash. When the enemy has nuclear weapons as well then no one can really win. No matter how powerful the attacking country is it would still feel the consequences of a large scale war. But the situation in SW is different. We are talking the Galactic Republic against one lousy gangster clan on a remote planet! How could there possibly be a backlash? I was not aware of the Hutts having a huge fleet of fighters or whatever military ships. Or do they according to some EU source? The Hutts wouldn't have the slightest chance against even a handful of experienced Jedi. They might be powerful on Tatooine, but no way could they ever strike back against a Republic attack, much less as far away as Coruscant.
    And Tatooine is no "sovereign country" either. It's more of an outlaw world. Does it even have its own government? Or are the Hutts the only authority? From the movies it would seem so. Since it's not part of the Republic there are no Tatooine representatives in the senate, right? So who would there be to complain if the Republic decides to take care of the slavery and Hutt problem?
    I'm not saying the Republic would or even should have cared about Tatooine one way or another, was just addressing the backlash issue. They wouldn't have had anything to worry about in that respect.
     
  10. DjangoKet

    DjangoKet Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Perhaps its only my understanding of their rules that is flawed. But my issue is that attachment is not permitted, yet the order is an attachment of the republic. They have no representation in the senate to which they serve. They are advocates of peace but are rarely seen to be striving for a non violent solution to any situations. They have been directly involved in the majority of the major wars to have ravaged the Galaxy. They are supposedly connected to every living thing through the force, but only serve those living within the republic. I mean as Padawan you spend a great deal of your adolescence with one person who teaches you lessons that will govern what kind of person you are for the rest of your life - and youre not supposed to form any kind of attachment to that person? Theyre likely to be the closest thing to a parent you would have, given that you will have been taken from your own parents at a very young age.

    Im not saying that they are Evil, or that they could be doing more because everything they do is wrong or stupid. I said they were flawed. Perhaps if Anakin had been allowed to free or visit his mother, things might have been different. His fear of loss pushed him closer to the dark side.
    Ok now im confusing myself, as, its impossible to have fear of loss if you have no attachments. At the same time, if Anakin had been able to save his mother, he would not have a heightened fear of those close to him dying. Its human nature to form emotional attachments, especially if you are connected to every living thing. IMO it was apparent that Anakin was too unstable to become a Jedi. Yes that is the luxury of being the audience, but it was apparent to others like Yoda and Obi Wan. Mace Windu believed he was too old, yet the decision was made for him to be trained because some believed him to be the chosen one. The fact that the order can be so split on such a decisive matter is a, would make me question their ability to interpret the will of the force. That is a flaw.
     
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    The question you need to ask yourself is this;
    Is Padme the kind of person who is always concerned with following rules and regulations.
    Is she a person who is scared and intimated and is too afraid to challenge someone powerful.
    Is she a person who would do what is easy over what is right?

    To me, given how she was written in TPM and AotC then answer is no.

    She had no problem standing up to those stronger than her.
    She didn't bow down to the TF's threats. She openly defied the chancellor and called for a vote of no confidence in him. That would have made her a lot of enemies in the senate but she did it anyway.
    She also didn't wait around for the senate to get of the behinds and do something, she went back to Naboo to fight herself.

    In AotC she is a strong advocate against the military creation act, that would again make her enemies. She is ordered to stay on Tatooine but she ignores that and goes herself to save Obi-Wan.

    So is she someone who would hide behind excuses like "oh this is too hard, it might not work, it could give me some bad PR."? Or is she someone who would do what she felt was right and anyone who is in her way had better move.
    Again I say the latter.

    @Hanyou
    It is not a plot hole to me, rather it is a character oversight.
    Padme, as she is written in TPM and AotC would not just simply ignore Shmi, a person she knows and owes a debt of thanks. Nor do I think she would be so scared and afraid to cross the Huts or do something that might make her look bad if she felt it was the right thing to do.

    It doesn't fit Padme, as she is otherwise written to either just leave Shmi to rot or be one who gives up and the first obstacle.

    As for the Jedi, to me they appear rather cold and uncaring throughout the PT, so them not giving a **** about Shmi does fit their overall attitude.


    @Alexrd
    You mean apart from being a SLAVE on a planet ruled by criminals? Where she could get sold to anyone, who could kill her, use her as a sex slave or anything?

    Is being a slave not something bad? Something that she would want out of?
    Or are you arguing that she was happy being a slave?


    Right, so she was perfectly happy being a slave and had no desire what so ever of NOT being a slave? Anakin was important to her but she would also care about her own situation.
    Caring about her son does not mean she doesn't care about herself.


    @mikeximus
    Isn't compassion a central core of Jedi belief?
    So wouldn't it be compassion to show some gratitude to a woman who aided a Jedi, who opened her home to a Jedi and helped him to accomplish his mission and maybe saved thousands or millions of lives?

    Or do the Jedi say "If you help us, don't expect anything in return, not even a thank you."

    First, I think Shmi would also be rather happy for not being a slave anymore. So they are helping TWO people, not one.
    Second, it is not breaking the attachment rule, it is instead asking the sensible question.
    Does a child, who knows their mother is alive, safe and well have an easier time letting go of his/her attachment than a child who is plagued by worry over the wellbeing of his/her mother because she is a slave/kidnapped or otherwise in serious danger?
    I think the answer is obvious, the second child would not only deal with letting go but also would be dealing with worry over their mother getting hurt or worse dying. As long as that worry is not removed, it will fester and grow. As it did with Anakin. He spent ten years with the worry about his mother constantly gnawing at him. Add to this his promise to come back and free her, and for every year that passes, that promise goes unfulfilled.

    So if the Jedi had any sense they would realize that at least freeing Shmi from slavery would help set Anakin's mind at ease and he would have an easier time of letting go. It doesn't mean that Shmi would live with him or anything like that. He just has less reason to worry. Plus he would be thankful to the Jedi and he would stop asking them to free her.

    Other Jedi don't know their parents so they have no idea if they are alive or dead and probably don't care since they don't know them. Anakin knew his mother and knew she was a slave on a planet ruled by gangsters. That filled him with worry in addition to simply missing his mother.
    His situation was different but the Jedi expected their "one size fits all" approach to work. And it didn't and for 10+ years they apparently didn't notice that.


    @JoshieHewls
    And hello to you to.
    I think it is comparable because the basic argument you used is the same. "If you can't help everyone, then it is more moral to help no one."
    I don't agree.

    And I think the world is full of examples of people that are trying to help people, knowing that they won't save everyone but they are still doing something.
    Sadly there is also the opposite, the ones who use this type of argument, say "Building a homeless shelter for 100 people when there are 1000 homeless people won't help them all so let's not build any shelters at all."

    In my country the refuge situation is talked about a lot and my country take in quite many refugees. But some argue against it and are saying basically "This country can't accept every refugee in the world so we should close our borders and not take in any refugees at all. That is more fair."

    Also starvation can certainly have culprits, a government or criminal organization can be deliberately starving people for some reason.
    So again, I don't see how inaction is more moral than trying to help people.

    @Valairy Scot

    Are you familiar with The Rwandan Genocide ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

    That was a rather "vile practice" and many countries stood by and did nothing.
    And yet "During these events and in their aftermath, the United Nations (UN) and countries including the United States, the United Kingdom, and Belgium were criticized for their inaction,"

    So while it is certainly common for countries to turn a blind eye to all sort of nasty things, they are sometimes called out on their inaction.

    Other examples, we have organizations such as ;
    " the Organization of American States, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the European Union, the Commonwealth Secretariat, the Council of Europe and the African Union "
    Who monitors elections and report if the election was fair or not.

    There are certainly examples where some governments have forced through a blatantly unfair election but it does sometimes draw critique from these organizations.

    So some governments do stick their nose into other countries affairs. It doesn't always help but I wouldn't say that nothing is ever done.

    To take an older example, the apartheid regime of south Africa. Quite many governments and other organizations had protests, economic sanctions or some sort of boycotts against that country at the time.

    @JimRaynor55
    This certainly true, the former government of my country did something similar and more or less abandoned people that had worked as translators. But this got them heavy criticism from the opposition and many other organizations who viewed them as cowards for simply abandoning these people. In the end, the government had to backtrack a bit and do something.
    So inaction was not applauded, rather the reverse. So the "Scandal" was them leaving dozens if not hundreds of people to die, not that they tried to help.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  12. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2015
    I wonder if Shmi would have met someone to fall in love, like she did with Cliegg Lars. Perhaps she would have met someone else. Perhaps not. And despite not being freed by Qui-Gon and despite her tragic ending, Shmi managed to experience a happy marriage as a free woman . . . even for a few years.[/QUOTE]


    It's not. But Qui-Gon's hands were tied. He was not allowed to free Shmi. He tried, but Watto refused to make both mother and son as part of their bet. Short of that, there was nothing Qui-Gon, the Jedi or Padme could do without causing a major flap between the Republic and Tatooine, or even Naboo and Tatooine. And this is also a good example of why the Jedi Order's ties to the Galactic Republic was not a good thing.

    Look at the history of the U.S. That government finally took the opportunity to end slavery in the Southern states only when the country was engaged in a civil war and only when the Union was on the verge of complete victory. The Galactic Republic did not have the military might to enforce their laws on Tatooine and other Outer Rim homeworlds. It took a civil war - namely the Clone Wars - for the Republic to display any military might in that region.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    It is possible that Padme told Chancellor Palpatine and he promised to look into it and she gave it no other thought. As to the Jedi, they had more pressing matters to attend to.
     
    Subtext Mining and mes520 like this.
  14. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    General response to several responses: Sure, the Jedi and/or the Senate and/or the Republic citizens can be criticized for their inaction, just as in our real life world the equivalents can be.

    As to no repercussions, we don't know for sure (I don't, maybe others do), that there may be Republic planets and/or non-aligned governments who would be up in arms over Republic interference in another's planet's "business." The usual "over-reach" and "slippery slope" arguments.

    I'm not sure a correct response exists - whatever good may be done may create a worse consequence and so should be carefully weighed.
     
  15. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    First, I was responding to an argument which seemed to say "It is more moral to help no one than to help a few." Something I don't agree with.

    Second, you, like some others before you, make this more complicated than it needs to.
    In TPM, a Jedi Went to Tatooine, freed one slave and not ONE mutter or protest was heard and it caused ZERO friction between Tatooine and the Republic.
    If a Jedi or and person from Naboo, went to Tatooine and gave Shmi something valuable so that she could buy her own freedom. This would not be noticed by the Hutts and it would cause not one bit of conflict between the republic and the Hutts.

    In short this is not complicated and saying that freeing one slave would cause a war is far fetched to say the least.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Why were there no further efforts to free Shmi?

    Good question & I personally don't buy any of the reasons given. All that was needed was a bit of cash which Qui-Gon was more than willing to put up for Shmi &/or Anakin. Obi-Wan was well aware of Anakin's ongoing pain & concern for his mother. Just paints Obi-Wan as an uncaring a-hole for not doing anything about it. Rules be damned. How about friendship & compassion?
    "Anakin was a good friend. I knew his mother was a slave in a dangerous backwater. He would always worry about her. I did nothing about it & she was killed by sandpeople." [face_plain]

    I'd also criticise Qui-Gon. He wanted to free Shmi & the only reason he didn't (at first) was that he did not have the local currency at the time or something to trade. That's the only reason. So why not tell her they'll send someone back & have her freed? He wanted to trade for her freedom one minute but then as soon as he leaves the planet it's not even a consideration??

    Also, & this has always been my biggest issue, Qui-Gon told Anakin "Watto wouldn't allow it". Rubbish, he just said two slaves were worth more than one podracer. Watto was actually quite willing to trade her. Instead QG & Watto bet the pod for only Anakin. But then Anakin won the race. So QG had freed Anakin due to the bet & still had the amazingly fast podracer to trade to Watto for Shmi. Watto seemed very keen to do that trade. The indications were that Shmi was nowhere near as valuable to Watto as Anakin. Watto tried to use a loaded chance cube to make sure he traded Shmi for the pod. & that was before Watto knew how fast it was. So after the race why wouldn't Watto swap the old lady who can't fix anything or do very much for the now famous winning champion podracer? Then sell it for big $$, or find a new pilot & enter it in future races?
    Instead of that Anakin says they sold the pod. He runs in & tells his mother "look at all the money we've got" from the sale. So why not offer that money to Watto for Shmi? Watto had just said he'd lost everything. He's now poor & he's going to keep an old lady instead of pocketing a pile of cash??

    What the hell George. You didn't think this through.
     
  17. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Darth Downunder

    Rubbish, he just said two slaves were worth more than one podracer.

    No, he said "No pod is worth two slaves".
     
  18. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    ...Which means exactly the same thing. I wasn't quoting him, I was describing his position.
     
  19. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    How so? Without a tie to a government, they had no authority to be guardians of peace and justice. The Republic is the biggest and most representative government in the galaxy, and it happens to be a democracy which is good.
     
  20. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Well, not so fast.

    I've thought about this and just figured something out.

    It certainly bothered me that Qui-Gon seemed to exert little effort in freeing Shmi while on Tatooine. In fact, zero effort -- raising the prospect to Watto of gambling on both Anakin and his mother was clearly just a bargaining tactic of his, so that he could make the idea of gambling on merely Anakin more palatable to Watto, before the roll of the (obviously weighted) chance cube, which Qui-Gon influenced the outcome of. All this, such that, Qui-Gon then stating, "I tried to free your mother, Ani, but Watto wouldn't have it", becomes incredibly glib (it is, for all intents and purposes, a lie).

    But it is quite possible that he made a sincere effort to free Shmi from Watto after the race. Shortly after the conclusion of the race, Qui-Gon tells Watto that he'll come by his shop later so that he can release Anakin. The next scene is of Qui-Gon riding up to the queen's ship on the outskirts with the replacement hyperdrive generator and necessary attendant parts. So he presumably did go back to the shop a short time before this to acquire the parts. He may have visited yet again on his ride back to Mos Espa after declaring to Obi-Wan that there was "some unfinished business" to see to. Two potential opportunities -- if the pod was sold before or during these visits -- for Qui-Gon to raise the issue of Shmi and attempt to purchase her.

    We then see Qui-Gon strolling back with Anakin to Anakin's hovel. On the way, he surprises Anakin with currency, saying "these are yours", which elicits an excited "yes!" from Anakin. The film then cuts to the interior of the hovel and we are now at the scene where Anakin learns he has been freed: a revelation which astounds him. So Qui-Gon obviously executed some sort of transaction with Watto; or there was at least some sort of discourse between the two which finally led to Anakin being freed in accordance with the bet. Yet Anakin doesn't know he's been freed till Qui-Gon tells him in the hovel. From this, we can infer that things were said between Watto and Qui-Gon which Anakin wasn't privy to, including, quite possibly, Qui-Gon attempting to get Watto to also surrender Shmi, even though that wasn't the term of the bet.

    Of course, this raises the question: why didn't Watto allow Shmi to go free if: a) Qui-Gon was willing to pay for her, and b) Watto (via the chance cube scene) thought a podracer was a good exchange for at least one slave, if not two? Perhaps Watto didn't want to lose Shmi in the end. Perhaps he felt he'd already been wiped out by placing the bets with Qui-Gon and whatever other bets and deals he made on the side ("I lost everything" he says to Qui-Gon -- just after we see him paying someone else off before Qui-Gon enters). Perhaps shopping for another slave, if leaving himself with no slaves, was not something he wanted to get involved in.

    This could be what Qui-Gon is referring to when he says that Watto "wouldn't have it". Freeing Shmi, even for all the tea in China, was no longer on the table, after Watto's tremendous loss. He was going to hold onto Shmi for the time being and Qui-Gon couldn't convince him otherwise. Maybe he just wanted to spite Qui-Gon in the end. Watto does confide to Anakin, after their first meeting in the junk shop, that he doesn't much trust Qui-Gon (or rather: doesn't want to have to trust or do business with him), in fact ("Outlanders! They think they know everything."). Later on, he even accuses him of foul tactics, claiming that Qui-Gon "knew" that Anakin would win. So it's not obscene that perhaps he wasn't going to give this "outlander" absolutely everything he wanted.

    Shmi's value to Watto, then, both is and isn't that important. If you take the view that he is mostly spiting Qui-Gon, then she might not be worth a lot to him, but she's worth something, and that'll do. If you take the view that it was too much trouble for Watto to go looking for more slaves, and he didn't want to put himself in a tight spot by even just temporarily having none, then, again, she doesn't need to be of tremendous value, just of sufficient value that Watto doesn't want to part with her (unless, perhaps, he could be enticed with a truly prodigious sum -- more than the money from one podracer could, presumably, provide). Then there is the fact that, yes, Shmi clearly had some value to Watto, which may have increased somewhat after the loss of Anakin. The notion that she was just some useless old woman is a bit offensive. She was middle-aged, not at the end of her lifespan. She had her basic faculties, was mobile, independent, intelligent, perceptive, and seemed to have some skills cleaning parts (at the workstation she's sat at when Anakin enters with the money). She had value, even if Watto would rather have kept Anakin and originally traded Shmi instead.

    Gosh, I know. All that is a long drive to a short stay at the beach. I just wanted, as much as possible, to carefully reason it all out. The idea that Qui-Gon made another, more sincere attempt to free Shmi, when he had the money from the podracer to play with, easily slots into the basic chronology and plot logic of the film. But it is true that we see no attempt being made. Therefore, it is a little jarring for Qui-Gon to state he made an attempt, when all we do see is his disingenuous sleight-of-hand mention of Shmi in his expanded bet, for the purpose of securing Anakin. But honestly, it fits just fine that he tried more credibly after Anakin won the race, only to be spurned by Watto who was in no mood to make any further deals. In fact, Watto's rebuffing of Qui-Gon's suggestion that he would bet his podracer against Anakin and his mother -- "No pod is worth two slaves, not by a long shot!" -- could also be taken to mean, "If you want to wipe me out of all my slaves, PAY ME A LOT MORE." In other words, by "winning" Anakin, Shmi was tragically lost by default.

    That doesn't quite excuse Qui-Gon's myopic greed, though. He saw that Anakin was special and he deigned to separate Anakin from his mother; even if it meant the mother ultimately couldn't come and would have to remain in bondage. From a certain point of view, that's pretty terrible. But then, after that, we get into muddy waters concerning how Shmi could best be freed -- if freeing her might have benefited Anakin, and Shmi, and not brought greater harm, given that any further effort would have involved either the Republic, Naboo, or a wealthy, private financier directly funding human trafficking. The situation is tragic. It actually doesn't have an easy solution given the sort anti-slavery laws of the Republic (as cited by Padme during the meal at Anakin's hovel). You know, it's a wealthy institution, but it can't just go around randomly funding crime empires like the Hutts on Tatooine. As much as those slaves might all deserve to be freed from a basic, modern-day ethical standpoint (which I certainly hold to: at least in the abstract), it's not a cut-and-dry case of just throwing money at the problem and making exceptions here and there.

    As for Obi-Wan, it's never entirely clear in the films if he ever realizes the Sand People abducted Shmi. Perhaps he later found this out (he at least knew where to find Owen and Beru on Tatooine); but the implication in ROTS is that Anakin never told him and confided in Palpatine instead. Jedi doctrine expressly forbid -- or at least discouraged -- the formation of worldly attachments. Moreover, Obi-Wan was your typical "from youngling" Jedi, meaning that he likely had little conception of a "mother" or "father" in the normative sense. He was, in a sense, distanced from Anakin's feelings, even if he somewhat recognized that Anakin had them. To Obi-Wan, Anakin was meant to undergo a gradual re-socialization process, where he would become something more than his past life, stripped of his earlier concerns, brought into a higher world of communion with the Force to guide and nurture him. Was this an evil philosophy? It can certainly be looked at critically and disapprovingly. But this was the sort of logic Obi-Wan operated from. And yes, to him, Anakin was a good friend who saved his life countless times, was cunning, fearless, a bit arrogant and proud, but always got the job done.

    We are meant to mull over the Jedi approach a little. In the end, is it good to impose such rules on people, even if they seem to work out for others and it's for "the common good"? Or do we need to see and respect each other's needs in a more rounded way and cultivate appropriately empathetic responses? If the latter, then the Jedi had certain blindspots, no matter their intentions. That's why the story doesn't end at III. There has to be a redemption, a reformation, a cleaning-up. At the very least, the Jedi path needed a bit of fine-tuning, to integrate more with the wider galaxy and relieve suffering, rather than be boxed into outmoded rules that worked better at some times than others, and ultimately ended with the old Order being destroyed.

    Just my little take on this difficult topic.
     
  21. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Wait, you're right that does mean the same thing.

    Oops.

    Sorry, carry on, nothing to see here...
     
    Darth Downunder likes this.
  22. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Cryogenic that's a great effort to try to explain this situation. No one could possibly do better as far as I can see. However it still doesn't add up IMO. Yes you can come up with your own in-universe reasons for this to make sense. But it requires filling in the gaps between scenes with guesswork. Assigning "head canon" scenarios & motives to characters that weren't apparent. If you do all that you can explain almost anything. But that's the responsibility of the writer. To have things make sense on screen & not require mental gymnastics from the audience to get everything to gel together. What Lucas showed us in the movie & the scenario he created just doesn't work without alot of assumptions. The facts on screen are:

    1. Watto was offered the bet of Anakin & Shmi for Anakin's podracer.
    2. Watto did not want to put both slaves up for grabs. More particularly he didn't want to risk Anakin who was hugely valuable to him (both for his repair work & as a podrace pilot). He clearly only wanted to bet Shmi & tried to manipulate the bet this way.
    3. Watto's bet was at a time when he had far less regard for this pod. He doubted it &/or knew very little about it. Anakin had smashed his & made this new one himself away from Watto's shop. In fact from the reaction of other characters it looked unimpressive. Yet Watto still was prepared to wager Shmi for this unremarkable pod.
    4. Unlike Anakin we're not shown that Shmi has any specialist skills. As a slave you'd assume she's a general laborer, cleaner, your classic "hired help".
    5. Anakin wins the race so Watto loses the bet & therefore Anakin. He agrees to free Anakin when Qui-Gon comes past his shop to pick up the parts.
    6. It's inferred there's a transmitter that slave owners have which keeps their slaves within a certain proximity. Otherwise an explosive implant is activated. To honor the bet Watto presumably turned Anakin's transmitter off so he could leave.
    7. By winning the bet Qui-Gon & Anakin got to keep his pod. Rather than an unknown pod this is now the Boonta Eve Race winning pod. Everyone including Watto who watched the race saw how fast it was. If you consider all of the delays including stalling at the start line for quite a while, for it to still win the race shows that it was alot faster than any of the others. Without any of the various delays due to dodgy tactics by competitors it might have almost lapped the others!
    9. So Qui-Gon has this super fast pod to offer Watto. The one he was willing to put up for Shmi when he thought it was just another podracer. (Side point: Qui-Gon had also dropped by the Naboo ship in the meantime to deliver the parts. He could've brought back some other technology or items of value to offer Watto as well as the pod. It's the Naboo royal ship after all, it must have some valuables. You'd think Queen Padme may have secretly intervened & helped out rather than leave Anakin's Mum to slavery!).
    10. Watto declares that he "lost everything" due to his betting. We're expected to believe that under these dire circumstances he now values Shmi more than a lightning fast champion podracer that just won a huge Super Bowl style race! "No, keep your pod that could recoup alot of the cash I lost. I want the middle aged lady instead" :confused:

    Like I said, maybe there are ways to concoct a scenario where this does all work. But IMO it's an example of bad writing. A scenario that just doesn't make obvious sense without a bunch of guesswork & mental gymnastics. Not saying it's a huge deal though, just a kooky plot point that doesn't quite add up. Engaging in some guesswork though, & adressing your points:

    - I think Watto is depicted as a businessman who makes decisions based on money. He's not the type to act on spite if it's going to result in a poorer business outcome.
    - There's no reason to think that Qui-Gon's comment "I tried to free your mother but Watto wouldn't have it" refers to a second attempt to free Shmi. What we saw on screen implies he's talking about the bet itself. QG tried to include both Shmi & Anakin in the bet but Watto wouldn't have it. Anakin didn't witness the bet scene.
     
  23. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005

    Mental gymnastics?

    Yes -- I went a long way to say a very simple thing.

    At the end of the day, all that matters is, do you believe it's reasonable that Qui-Gon attempted to get Watto to free Shmi, at least once, after the race?

    To address a few additional points you raised:

    - Podracers seem to have some sort of minimal value in order to be race-worthy; well, I consider this a reasonable inference, at least. So Watto was prepared to wager Shmi for something of reasonable value. Saying any more, one way or the other, with regard to Watto's opinion of the pod, is just doing what you accuse me of doing: reading into the film or "assigning head canon scenarios and motives to characters that weren't apparent". Furthermore, Watto is quite clearly motivated (at this part of the movie at least) by greed (and yes, I think we can say that much), and while offering Shmi might be less costly to him than offering Anakin, it seems he seriously doubts Anakin can actually win (evidenced by the fact that he boasts to Qui-Gon, in the same scene, that he's "betting everything" on Sebulba, apparently confident of the fact that "he always wins").

    - Shmi might be a more of your "hired help" to Watto, but she seems quite capable of taking care of herself, and, as mentioned, she is sat at a work station when Anakin enters with Qui-Gon, performing action on specialist parts which appears to require (or, okay, might require) some skill. Her work might be on the menial side, but then, outside of podracing, that appears to be what Watto was primarily using Anakin for, in fact: menial labour.

    - The transmitter issue is weird because Anakin doesn't know he's been freed until Qui-Gon tells him. Perhaps we're meant to believe that Qui-Gon visited Watto's shop one final time after he tells him he's "no longer a slave" and Anakin has packed and said goodbye to Shmi. If not, then Watto must have deactivated it in some way remotely (because Anakin doesn't know he's free), and Qui-Gon was, presumably, witness to this (as confirmation that Anakin was free and Watto had stuck to the deal). In other words, the idea of Qui-Gon visiting Watto's shop at least once, off-screen, after the podrace, shouldn't be in doubt. Qui-Gon therefore had an opportunity to raise the issue of freeing Shmi. He kept this money when Watto refused and gave it to Anakin, just before they stepped inside his hovel; perhaps to soften the imminent blow or the worry of Anakin leaving his mother behind (the money seems to have been left with Shmi).

    - Qui-Gon offering Watto the pod: this is an assumption. I've been making some myself, but if you were being consistent with what you said about "head canon", you would avoid it. In fact, if Anakin secretly built the pod under Watto's nose ("Watto doesn't know I've built it"), from parts gathered from Watto's shop (Watto seems to have podracer engines and the like out back), then it might not have been clever to offer it straight (back) to Watto. Yes, it's true, I'm making my own assumption based on this premise, and I'm going to say that it's more likely that Qui-Gon sold it to someone else. He then came into money, and this money, instead of the pod, would then have been used to try and barter for Shmi. But, as I've argued (and what must logically follow from this assumption), Watto wasn't selling; and reasons for why have been given.

    - Obi-Wan told Qui-Gon that there were "a few supplies" and "the Queen's wardrobe" available, but they weren't enough for him to attain the parts he needed. Perhaps they also weren't enough for Qui-Gon to use to bargain for Shmi. And, as discussed, it wasn't in the nature of these people and institutions to go around sinking money into the Hutt-controlled territory of Tatooine and buying slaves. Anakin earns his freedom; and it wouldn't have been unethical of Qui-Gon to use particular winnings, related to Anakin's victory, to entice Watto. But that was all he could really do, or else the Queen/Naboo/the Republic, would have been directly funding human slavery.

    - Pods are valuable, but clearly not that valuable (to repeat: "No pod is worth two slaves, not by a long shot"). So, with Watto smarting over the loss of Anakin, and the self-plundering of all or most of his funds in betting heavily on Sebulba, he probably wasn't too interested in Qui-Gon's money. It wasn't enough (the money or the pod) to bail him out of debt; and perhaps one slave was better than no slaves even for a limited time. And, again, spite mixed with distrust and resentment. Watto had fun with the idea of trying to come off richer and get one over on Qui-Gon, but the opposite happened. He stewed in defeat and resentment and wouldn't give Shmi up (not for the rather paltry sum of a single pod anymore...). Thus, Shmi was left in bondage, and Anakin's tragic life course was set.
     
  24. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Because a slave being quietly forgotten (except by the slave's freed-but-still-not-free son) fits in nicely with the larger PT tapestry of the Republic falling from grace even before the dictator bombastically reveals his evil empire. Could Padme have made a memo to do something about this and at least sent some intern to take care of Shmi? Sure. But wistful and tragically oriented fairy tales sometimes sacrifice deeper character/plot logic in favor of a certain mood, feeling, or situation.
     
    Cryogenic likes this.
  25. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    But by finding out on his own terms, Luke discovered that there was still good in Vader, and Vader started to question his own views (as in, "If my son would rather kill himself than join me, what gives?"). Also, Luke's arrival provided the necessary distraction for Vader to pretty much lose interest in the others, giving Lando that chance to set up an escape.

    I'm sure Ben & Yoda would've told him, at what they believed was the right time. And it probably would've gone like, "Vader is utterly evil and totally irredeemable. For the good of the galaxy, you must kill him. Don't waste any sympathy on him, oh, and he's your father, just take him down. There's no other way to stop him and the Sith."

    Back on topic, if we count the EU, the book Tatooine Ghost reveals that Qui-Gon did make arrangements for Shmi's freedom, but was killed before he could personally carry them out. He may not have had the opportunity to pass them along to Kenobi or the Council.
     
    Sith Lord 2015 likes this.