PT Why were there no further efforts to free Shmi?

The novelization explains that Anakin was taken to Watto's to have the explosive deactivated and that he would have surgery to remove later on. That took place after Anakin leaves Shmi, but before stopping by Jira's place.

The price for a pod and the price for a slave are obviously way too different. Even if Qui-gon had offered it to Watto, he probably wouldn't find it sufficient enough to give up a slave.

 

He didn't discover good in Vader because he told him that he was his father. Even in RotJ, he doesn't know and asks Yoda for confirmation.

Luke's arrival had nothing to do with their escape. They were already going to thanks to Lando warning Lobot.

 

Lost in all this: when was Shmi freed and where did a poor moisture farmer get the credits to buy her freedom?

It could be that the money won on the race went to Lars to buy Shmi, or that Qui-Gon (with OR without Obi-Wan's knowledge) sent something of value (yeah, I know about the one book but it's not canon anymore, I believe)...

 

Actually, according to Luke, he felt there was still good within him during their first encounter.

LUKE: "Because...there is good in him. I've felt it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I can save him. I can turn him back to the good side. I have to try."

LUKE: "I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully.That is why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now."

It just didn't occur to him until he was on Endor that he was sensing conflict within Vader at Cloud City.

The thing is that Luke's loyalty to his friends is what nearly does him in. He must be willing to let them go, if it is their destiny to fall in battle. There is time for loyalty, but there is also a time to let them go. Han and Leia are willing to sacrifice themselves for Luke, he must be willing to accept that. It is something that his father couldn't do until the very end.

 

However, what's really ironic about the situation in ESB is that Luke's failure there is that he allows his attachments to Leia and Han drive his decision making, and it nearly cost the galaxy.

Why fans can't make that connection between why Luke failed in ESB and what the Jedi taught in the PT is beyond me. Why fans can't make the connection that the Jedi would not and could not go back and free Shmi, otherwise undermining one of their paramount rules is again beyond me.

To me it suggests what I feel is a problem these days in society, instant gratification, that people feel the need to be instantly rewarded for doing something good. People want Shmi to be instantly rewarded for doing something good, instead of the act itself being it's own reward. It comes across that people want Shmi to be rewarded because they themselves would want to be rewarded, instantly, for doing something good.

The argument that Shmi should have been freed by the Jedi completely ignores the fact that she was rewarded later on when she met Cliegg, and fell in love. Something that might not have happened if the Jedi freed her. It speaks to Karma, that good will be returned to you eventually, though it might not be instantly.

 

I have been reading a few of these posts and I'm confused here. Anakin's mother was in immediate danger. It's not about attachment at all. It's about a living being in danger.

Would they have let other people die if Anakin had visions of them in danger? Did they only let Shmi die because Anakin was attached to her?

 

The Jedi had no clue about Anakin's "dreams"! Only Obi Wan, and he thought they were exactly that, dreams. As did Anakin, until the dream became so intense that he had to act on it.

However, the Jedi were not local security forces. They weren't batman, or superman, that when they weren't fighting the big bads they sat atop skyscapers and foiling petty crimes. That wasn't the Jedi's job, that wasn't their mandate. As Anakin tells us in AOTC, there are certain things that are beneath a Jedi and left to local security.

Travelling across the galaxy to try and change the fate of one individual, in order to satisfy the pain of one of their own Jedi is not how the Jedi used their powers. It sounds cruel, but, it is a fundamental rule to the order and why they placed no attachments as such an important part of their teachings. The Jedi cannot let their fear of losing the ones they love alter or drive their judgement. Once again, look at what happened with Luke in ESB. Yoda is trying to teach Luke the same thing that The Jedi Order taught the Jedi in the PT. You can't let your personal attachments drive your judgement, because there is more at risk than the lives of Han, Leia, or even Shmi when a Jedi lets attachments alter their judgement.

 

I have to disagree with this comment, due to his attempt to free both Anakin and Shmi. Watto had only insisted that only one Skywalker could be made as part of the bet, after he tried to include both mother and son. Considering his initial interest in Anakin, I was not surprised that he would choose the latter, considering his interest in Anakin's potential for the Force.

Qui-Gon has his faults. But I cannot agree that he was guilty of "myopic greed" in the case of Anakin's freedom.

 

But the question remains, why? Obi-Wan knows about Force visions so why would he so quickly dismiss this as nothing but dreams? Esp when they are this persistent? Obi-Wan would know that Anakin had missed his mother and Anakin would have asked him if she could freed or helped in some way.
In ESB, Obi-Wan quickly deduces that Han and Leia are made to suffer so that Luke would sense it and feel their pain. So why did he not consider the possibility that something was happening to Shmi?

And Yoda and the council would know about Force visions and they would most likely know that if something happened to Shmi then Anakin might sense it. They saw how much he missed her and if something terrible happened to her one or two years later, it could have a severe impact on Anakin.
He was still just a child and feeling the death of his mother through the Force would be traumatic.

Other Jedi have no connection to their parents so if they died a horrible death, the Jedi would not sense anything. Anakin is different.

[/QUOTE]

But take RotJ, at the start Luke is going to Tatooine to save Han. Was this wrong? Not the Jedi way?
A proper Jedi would not be concerned with Han living or dying? He shouldn't waste his powers in helping him?
Is Luke again acting on his attachments?

And in the second half of Rotj, Luke goes to Vader because he wants to save him, he thinks that he can reach Vader and convince him to turn away from the path he is walking on.
He doesn't want to fight or kill him. Is he again allowing his feelings to get in the way of his judgment?
The "proper" Jedi way seemed to be just to kill Vader as he was 100% Evil.

Plus, freeing Shmi would also help her in addition to Anakin. And she had helped a Jedi so paying her back would be a compassionate act.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Okay, well, thanks for that. In an earlier draft, IIRC, there is actually a scene of Watto deactivating the device, and Watto sympathetically tells Anakin, "Come back some day and see your mother" (which is likely why there's a similar scene in the book). In the filming version, as far as I know, there is no such scene, but there are two extra lines after Qui-Gon says that Watto wouldn't allow Shmi to be freed (as in the film: "Watto wouldn't have it"):

ANAKIN: But the money from selling...
QUI-GON: It's not nearly enough.

So that goes along with what I said; and what you wrote underneath:

Right, right. Either the price wasn't sufficient; or Watto, at that point, simply didn't consider it enough. The difference between these two possibilities, is, of course, academic. The more fundamental and pertinent reality is: Qui-Gon didn't have enough resources to induce Watto to release Shmi even after the race.

So I think it can be maintained -- per my former posts -- that Qui-Gon might have given it another shot; even though there is no explicit scene or moment that shows it. There's little that contradicts it. Again, he had to get Watto to deactivate the transmitter (not to mention that Qui-Gon had to take hold of the ship parts). Unless, of course, the transmitter was a total lie, and both Qui-Gon and Watto knew better.

 

Out of Universe explanation - Poor writing

In universe explanation - This rigid dogma of the Jedi. Taking children away from their parents (who knows how this was done…do parent just give their kid up? Do they get paid? Nothing is explained of course). Now we must keep Anakin and his mother apart because of that whole attachment clause from thousands of years ago. Sigh. Their refusal to adapt and open their eyes to the world around them led to their downfall. Clouded by the Dark Side only goes so far.

 

But Watto was prepared to wager Shmi for some unknown pod. Clearly after winning the race the pod would've greatly increased in value in Watto's mind. Watto makes decisions based on profit. It's a stretch IMO to think that he'd rather have Shmi than the champion podracer which is a means to win races & big prize money. Esp when he's now suddenly quite poor. But ok let's say it wasn't quite enough value. This is where I question how realistic Padme's lack of interest in helping was. She spent time with Shmi & got to know her. She hated the idea of slavery. She's the Queen of Naboo. She has a ship full of who knows what technology & valuables. They couldn't find anything else to add to the podracer to get Watto to accept??
But even still if you somehow accept all that I don't buy for a second that Padme would allow Shmi to suffer in slavery after the Trade Federation crisis was over. It was established that a slave's freedom can be bought for the right price. Padme was the Queen of a whole planet! Anakin is the young boy who just saved her planet by destroying the droid control ship. & Padme knew how miserable Anakin was about leaving Shmi. There was that scene on board her ship where he told her how much he missed her. Even if the Jedi aren't allowed family attachment I'm sure Anakin would've been happy & at peace knowing his mother was safe & living on Naboo.

People talk about the Jedi but to me it's far more glaring that Padme didn't arrange for Shmi's freedom. The Jedi have rules, Padme doesn't. The Naboo could've offered Watto his own ship! Seems like shocking negligence as well as a lack of compassion & gratitude.

 

Great thread,
I'm left scratching my head as to why the Jedi wouldn't free Shmi. I guess the Jedi wanted the Younglings to sever all attachments, especially their parents, so that they could become more efficient and desensitised killing machines. Yoda's "mourn them do not, miss them do not" is basically saying.... Suck it up and get over it. Here have a bag of cement and harden the **** up.
It was the Jedi and their archaic teachings that largely contributed to their own demise. They couldn't adapt with the times and Darwin looked after the rest.
Freeing Shmi should've been on the top of the list. How dare the Jedi continue to allow the Mother ('Virgin Mary') of their prophesied saviour live as a slave. The Jedi should be worshipping Shmi as the 'Virgin Mary', not allow her to suffer as someones property. It's no wonder the 'Chosen One' and the majority of the Galaxy turned against these heartless monsters (Jedi).

 

Remember they didn't have much to trade onboard the ship for parts let alone a slave. In TPM they stated they only had the queen's wardrobe to trade which may have not been enough (it didn't have the value for parts) besides Watto not being in the garment business and there may be litttle demand for fancy royal dresses on such a backwater world. Also trading or selling a royal wardrobe poses the danger of tipping off the Hutts.

As for Padme not rescuing Shmi, the most simple reason would be life got in the way with rebuilding Naboo and her political career beside threats against her life, much like with Han waiting 3 years to pay off Jabba or Ben waiting 3 years to contact Luke to seek Yoda.

 

Well we're left to come up with reasons & the ones you've put fwd aren't bad. It requires Padme to be distracted & having other things to do though. Fact is if freeing Shmi was a priority for Padme she would've made it happen. She could just email some lackey & have a ship sent to Tatooine with a bunch of valuables, a new ship, whatever it takes. Easy peasy. Watto was now down on his luck & would've jumped at a good deal. You can't tell me Shmi was that valuable to him. What did she even do? Whatever it was any other local employee could do it in her place.

 

What if Watto had already sold Shmi?

 

Obi-wan only had information that he was given by Anakin, who wasn't very forthcoming about what he was seeing. Just that he was having bad dreams about her, which weren't automatically considered visions. The novelization even indicated that Anakin didn't know they were of her suffering until the last one. Obi-wan had concluded that they were just dreams and not visions of the future. Obi-wan can see more clearly from where he is as a ghost and knows that Vader has a trap for Luke and that is why they are suffering.

As to Shmi, yes, he knew that he missed Shmi, but he also taught Anakin to let go of his feelings and focus on the moment.

Anakin didn't open up to any of the Council, which is why they don't know. Obi-wan himself didn't tell them either.

This situation was different from the other. Luke didn't go rushing off half cocked. He sat down and spent months planning the rescue. He continued to train on his own and built his new Lightsaber. He was far more in control of his emotions here, than he was going to Cloud City. A critical thing to remember about Jedi, all Jedi, is that they must learn to prioritize what is important from what they feel is important. This was what Aayla Secura taught Ahsoka Tano during a rescue mission.

AAYLA: "I can still sense your worry for Anakin, your attachment to him."

AHSOKA: "It's just I get so confused sometimes. It's forbidden for Jedi to form attachments, yet we are supposed to be compassionate."

AAYLA: "It is nothing to be ashamed of, Ahsoka. I went through the same process when I was your age with my own Master."

AHSOKA: "Really? You?"

AAYLA: "He was like a father to me. I realized that for the greater good, I had to let him go. Don't lose a thousand lives just to save one."

When Luke left, he acted out of fear and made the wrong choice. When he set up this plan, he made it logically and made sure that going after Han didn't affect his commitment to the Alliance, nor the commitments of the others to the Alliance.

Luke acted compassionately towards Vader, something that the Jedi had lost sight of during the Clone Wars. That doesn't mean that Vader didn't need to die, but that Luke had to be willing to let go of his father and his feelings towards him. Both the good and the bad.

The pod is not what won the race. Anakin was the one who won. That's why he was angry when his rigged chance cube landed on Anakin's color, rather than on Shmi's. It's why he praised Anakin's salvaging the pod from the last race. It's why he accused Qui-gon of cheating and relented under the threat of discussing it with Jabba. Anakin was more valuable than Shmi was. That's why he didn't think the boy would win. He wanted to keep the boy, not the pod and not his mother.

1. Does she know that Qui-gon freed her, or not? Perhaps Qui-gon assured her that she would be taken care of, once he got to Coruscant.

2. Did she not ask Palpatine to see about doing something, since she had her own duties to attend to and he lied to her?

 

If he had then Padme would be aware of it.
So then she would send a message to the Jedi, telling Anakin "Hey good news, your mother is no longer a slave, she is a free woman."
But in AotC Anakin clearly expected Shmi to still be Watto's slave.
So what happened to her message? Did the Jedi decide to be ***** and not tell Anakin? Why?
Plus she could have told Anakin this before reaching Watto's shop and it would not make any sense why she would keep this to herself.

No, given her silence in the matter, she also thought that Shmi was still a slave and this means she never tried to free her.

Which again suggest to me that Lucas simply overlooked this. He forgot that it would make sense for Padme to free Shmi. And really nothing in AotC would change. Padme just tells Anakin that she freed his mother years ago but Shmi elected to remain on Tatooine. So they go there and go to her house but she isn't there and they seek Watto out to look for info. Simple.

And if Lucas made her and the Jedi's inaction to be a deliberate act, why was there no follow up to that? It is ripe for dramatic possibilities. And if they did free her or try to free her, that too is something worth mentioning.
But nothing was made of it, Shmi was just forgotten.

@DS

I am talking about TPM and just after it. The council saw through Anakin and noticed how much he missed his mother. Given what they know of Force visions and how a Jedi can sense pain from those close to him/her, they would figure that if something bad happened to Shmi then odds are good that Anakin would feel it. And being just a kid and not yet having learned to let go, it could devastate him. So unless they expected Anakin to be able to let go immediately then it would make sense for them to make sure that Shmi was a little safer.

But that should not matter, the argument I responded to seemed to argue that a Jedi would never go to rescue friends or people close to them. That losing a friend or loved one is inconsequential and the Jedi should not waste their powers on something this trivial. The Jedi should just learn to let go and if the friend dies then he dies.
Didn't Luke have bigger concerns in RotJ? Why waste his time and risk himself getting killed just to save a friend?
Yoda and Obi-Wan figured that Han and Leia were just bait for a trap set by Vader.
The same could be true here. Consider, Vader knows where Han is and he would figure that Luke would try and rescue him. So Tatooine could be as much a trap as Bespin was.

And he isn't acting out of fear here? Han could get killed and Luke is coming to save him.
He has a better plan yes but he still goes to save someone he is attached to. He doesn't trust that Han will be able to get out on his own, he puts himself and others at risk to save him.
And how could he make sure that his or others commitment to the alliance was not affected?
He choose to save Han before going to the rebel meeting. And if he or any of the others were killed, the alliance would loose their services. So he is very much putting his friends before the alliance.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

This is one thing that always bugged me.

 

The Jedi Council knew that he had concern, but only because of the separation anxiety issue. The Council had just chalked it up to his being afraid in general and that he could be taught to let go of his fears. His fears would always be there unless he trained himself to let go of them.

Luke didn't have bigger concerns in ROTJ, that is why it was okay for him to rescue Han. He still trained himself and had learned his lesson from rushing off. A Jedi can go after someone like that, so long as they are not filled with negative emotions and they are not compromising themselves, nor the mission for the sake of an attachment. Friendships are important and to save Han is an act of compassion, but your reasons and motivations must be pure. As well as how rational you are in doing so.

But it was not. Obi-wan could see that Vader would not go to Tatooine to search for Luke, nor send a garrison to capture him. And for Luke, his mission on Tatooine was important as it would help define him going forward. This is why they say that he is ready to face Vader, because of how he conducted himself with the rescue. It was part of Luke's Jedi trial.

Luke isn't acting out of fear here. He is approaching this the same way that Yoda, Obi-wan and Qui-gon would have. Taking his time, looking to the Force for guidance and making calmer, more rational decisions. When we saw Qui-gon on Tatooine, he approached the whole with a sense of detachment. He wasn't emotionally invested. He kept a level head and worked it out like a Jedi should.

Leia, Chewie and Lando were going to go with or without him. He went because it was the right thing to do and he felt it was wiser to have a Jedi involved, than without one. He knows that Han cannot get himself out of his predicament. This is different from when Han and Leia go to Endor to risk their lives in battle.

They got permission from Mon Mothma, Gial Ackbar and Crix Madine to go do this. Any commitments that were necessary, they took care of first. Just as Luke got permission to leave for Dagobah the first time.

The Death Star mission wasn't until later. The plans had already been leaked prior to the start of ROTJ and everyone was already on Tatooine executing the plan, while the Bothan network went through the data and sorted it all out.

 

Why would you assume that?

If Nubians came looking for Shmi, it's very possible that Watto would have realized these people had a connection to those trying to get parts from a Nubian cruiser he saw not too long ago. In which case, he might have quite bitter feelings about the whole event and be unwilling to tell them anything at all.

Or, if he had to sell Shmi due to a particularly embarrassing incident, he might just send them packing without telling them anything or refusing to cooperate while pretending he still has her.

You might say that's irrational from a business perspective, but Watto doesn't always make the best decisions business-wise. Already, he's a huge gambler which shows poor judgement with money. And he refused to sell Shmi to Qui-Gon for the money they got from selling the pod even though, before in the movie, he was perfectly willing to bet Shmi against it. But he was angry at Qui-Gon and thus refused to cooperate.

If Watto won't cooperate, then Padmé's going to think that Shmi is still with him. And given that her planet was recently invaded, she may not have the resources to justify further pursuing the case in light of her people's suffering.

For example, Sio Bibble is seen saying "the death tool is catastrophic" in a message to Padmé. And you might say he was lying and it was merely a message meant to establish a trace. But don't forget that, in a private conversation, Nute Gunray says to Sio Bibble "your people are dying" and thus there WAS an enormous crisis that had recently happened on Naboo that Padmé had to deal with.

 

I know but Watto didn't have to bet at all. It was a choice. Qui-Gon offered the bet & he initially refused. Then he saw a way to fix the bet & only risk Shmi. Which he was more than happy to do. Like you said, this indicates that he valued Shmi far less that Anakin. Which makes his price for her freedom far less later on.
Also it was a combination of Anakin's skills & the pod itself that won the race. Anakin as a pilot had never even finished a race prior to Boonta Eve. So this pod was special. Also when Anakin floored it (which any pilot could do) we clearly see it belting along easily overtaking the other pods. It should've presented quite a bit of value to Watto as a way of winning future races & big prize money. How was Shmi going to make him money & rebuild his wealth?
Sebulba also no longer had a working pod. Maybe he & Watto could form a partnership using Anakin's pod. So Watto wouldn't have Shmi pottering around cleaning or whatever she did. Big deal. I think the main reason he had her at all was bcs Anakin came with her. On her own I don't think a greedy businessman like Watto would place much value on her.

This is the thing, we're left to make up our own story & head-canon to explain Padme's apparent inaction. IMO that's poor writing. Padme got to know Shmi. Shmi kindly offered Padme & the others her home & they stayed there for several days. Shmi letting Anakin race was the reason they could all get back to helping Naboo in their crisis. Padme was supposed to be a compassionate person who hated slavery. She had access to enormous resources as the Queen of an entire world. In the end Anakin helped save her planet & she was supposed to care about Anakin. Buying the freedom of a slave such as Shmi would've been easy. To me there's no way around it, Padme's inaction for the next 10 years is glaring & out of character.

 

Sequels often pull this, like how TESB doesn't explain why Han waited so long to pay Jabba, or in Ghostbusters 2 why Peter and Dana didn't work out. The worst case is with Halloween 5 where Michael lays dormant for an unclear amount of time in a bum's shack.

 

Yeah but none of those things resulted in a person who the characters should care about living in some lawless backwater in slavery. Han was a risk-taker & a reckless person. He'd risk his own safety but not that of a kind lady who helped him.

 

What are you talking about? Han worked for Jabba who is a slaver himself. He earned a tidy profit off of Jabba's slave Empire. He not only did not help any of the slaves he saw, he actively enriched their master.