PT Why weren't more Jedi sent to face Darth Maul?

If a Jedi life was a willing sacrifice to defeat one man. I guess then question the is, why did the Jedi Council place such little value on Jedi life, or in this case specifically Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

Huh?? Out of several Jedi including Obi-Wan, Anakin, Yoda and Mace Windu, Qui-Gon is one who DOESN'T survive his encounter with the Sith. The fight isn't even close; Maul toys with him and easily taunts him into completely leaving himself open. According to the films, Qui-Gon isn't anywhere near the dueling capabilities of those other Jedi.

Let's also not forget that when Mace Windu goes to confront Palpatine, also on "suspicion" that he is a Sith Lord, he makes sure he has 3 other Jedi Masters to back him up. Curious.

 

They obviously didn't intend for Qui-Gon to die. What is this nonsense?

Qui-Gon had a bad moment and it cost him. He's an older Jedi going up against a Sith in his prime. It doesn't mean he's an inferior duelist.

And when Mace goes to confront Palpatine on suspicion that he's a Sith Lord, they already know for sure that the Sith have actually returned. They've been taking the Sith threat extremely seriously for over a decade at this point (which is in fact exactly what Sidious wants). That's a pretty big difference you ignored.

 

Yeah I guess, the same way someone who doesn't wear a seatbelt also doesn't necessarily intend to die. But is it about "intending" an outcome, or taking the actions necessary to ensure the greatest likelihood of your preferred outcome?

So was it a bad moment, or was it that he was too old. You just pulled out two opposing excuses here.
Again, according to the case studies we have from the films, he is an inferior duelist to the names I mentioned. He's still better than Fisto, Kolar and Tiin.

I didn't ignore anything. Mace Windu is apprehending a suspected Sith Lord, but he doesn't go with a padawan like he made Qui-Gon do, he gets substantial backup.

 

Yes, that's what we're arguing about. They didn't take proper precautions because 1) they didn't think the threat was as serious as it was and 2) the goal was to draw out the attacker, not scare him away.

It's both, dude; there's nothing contradictory there, no "gotcha."

Yes, those guys might have been better duelists.

You're literally and blatantly ignoring the major differences between the two situations which I just pointed out in the post you're quoting.

 

BULL. Qui gon got bested but like I said he MORE than held his own against Maul for his age and the mistake he made. If you read the expanded lore it is quite clear Qui Gon is one of the top duelists in the order of the prequel era. No one said he's Yoda or Mace Windu level, but like I said he wasn't some MOOK 2nd Rate Jedi Knight. If he followed the Council more he would have been a senior member of it. If he had known how dangerous a threat Maul was I'm sure he would have confronted him with couple other masters. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

Being killed in less than 30 seconds of single combat is "more than holding your own"? To who's standard?? His mistake was..NOT BEING GOOD ENOUGH AT SWORDFIGHTING. This doesn't make him any less of a Jedi.

Actually, YOU did:

So...have you changed you're mind?

You're creating a strawman argument. "Mook 2nd rate Jedi Knight" is term you just made up. My point remains, as evidenced by multiple other Jeid who are able to best Sith Lords in combat; that Qui-Gon was a cut below those Jedi when it came to single combat.

And not taking precautions, when the outcome means life or death, is arrogant and stupid.

Ahh, of course. Also he had long hair, probably got in his eyes when he was fighting. And it was probably a long flight from Coruscant, I bet he was a bit jetlagged.

How can Qui-Gon use the old excuse, when Dooku, Palpatine and Yoda are all older than him and don't display the same weak dueling skill or have "bad moments"?

Well, they all were able to defeat Sith in combat, and one of them slew the man who killed him, so there's no maybe about it.

The biggest difference is that when Windu's life is on the line, all of a sudden significant Jedi Master backup is provided. I would argue you're ignoring that.

 

What was the whole point of the peace time Jedi if not to be ambassadors akin to UN peacekeepers.

Forget about the Sith or just random attacker question. A huge event is happening on Naboo. It would be like 90s Kuwait, 00s Georgia or 10s Ukraine. Time to send in an investigation team at the very least. Now it is possibly a hostile situation, so you don't just send in Senators or even regular politicians. You send in the force that was made just for a situation as this. The UN peackeepers or their equivalent, the Jedi. You are investigating an entire planet with at least three different cultures involved. Sending one master and his apprentice seems foolish.

Jedi Peacekeeper
You are invading a sovereign planet. Please leave.

Gunray
This isa big misunderstanding. We have a right to be here.

Jedi
You have some formal declaration like a treaty to substantiate this?

Gunray
Well, no. You came too soon for that. We were just drawing it up.

Jedi
Padme. As a representative of the Naboo, would you accept this treaty.

Padme
Absolutely not.

Jedi
Binks. As a representative of the Gungan, would you accept this treaty

Binks
Messa grant the Trade Federation emergency powers.

 

I begin to wonder what influence or esteem the Jedi had at all if two of their ambassadors report being gassed and having to escape aboard a TF invasion vessel then are attacked by the TF armada while accompanying the Queen AWAY from the Naboo system (something surely recorded by the royal ships flight recorders) and the senate doesn't believe them.

Why does it take another ten years for the Jedi to even begin to contemplate their effectiveness and their position in relationship with the political establishment?

 

First, the primary reason why Qui-Gon was sent with Padme back to Naboo was to draw out Maul so that they would learn more about him, if he was a sith or not etc.
Second, yes he is there to protect her as well as the Jedi recognize that Maul is after her.
So the Jedi say that they want to find out more about Maul. Mace says they will use all their resources. Which apparently is just two Jedi.

But your argument that as soon as a Jedi steps up to protect Padme, both the public and the senate will know.
Even if we accept that, then sending 2 or 5-6 Jedi will make ZERO difference as there are jedi protecting the queen in both cases and the public/senate will know about it. So secrecy is not an option in any event. So it would make no difference to send 2 Jedi as opposed to 5-6.

But how would the senate/public know about it?
Naboo is occupied by the TF and it's people put in camps. So the only ones that would find out that the Jedi are involved is the TF. Would they tell the senate/public? Why would they draw attention to the Jedi fighting their illegal invasion army?
Now after the mission being over I would imagine that word of the Jedi's involvement would become known. But as I said, if the mission ends well, were is the harm?
If it ends badly then that is a bigger worry than any kind of bad press.

Also, the senate didn't know that two jedi had been sent at the start of the film.
So two jedi fought TF forces and rescued Padme and yet that wasn't know by the senate either.
Valorum knew as did Palpatine but beyond them, it apparently wasn't known.

[/QUOTE]

Speaking about ignoring facts, they have TWO jedi, who SAW the invasion with their own eyes.
So they have evidence in the form of eyewitness accounts.
But neither Padme nor Valorum thinks to call on them to testify to the senate. Which didn't make much sense.

But while the senate refuse to accept that anything has happened, the JC KNOW that war has broken out and the TF has attacked and invaded a republic world.
They are the protectors of the republic so if the republic is attacked, shouldn't they do something?
The Jedi know that the TF has an army while the republic does not. They also know that the senate has shown itself unable or unwilling to act in this matter.
The TF could attack other worlds so should the Jedi just sit there and do nothing?
But the Jedi actually do decide to act even without senate approval. they send two Jedi to help Padme against the TF and to track down Maul. So they have showed that they can and will act without a senate ok.

Also, you seemed to have missed that I argued for 5-6 Jedi as opposed to just two. So I was not talking about a large force like in AotC.
Sending 5-6 will be a small difference in numbers but will make it easier to catch Maul, which is the main goal.

Also, the JC know that the TF still have a massive army on Naboo and if Maul is working with the TF, which is very likely, then he isn't alone, he has an army to draw upon.
And the Jedi are sent to protect Padme as well as to draw out Maul.
Unless Padme intends to surrender, there will almost certainly be a fight.
And while two Jedi can't fight a whole army by themselves, there will be fighting.
So one or both of the Jedi could wind up killed by the TF forces.
So that is another reason to send 3-4 more Jedi.
It won't be many enough that they can fight the whole TF army but now they have more people to carry out the mission even with some losses.

To sum up,
The argument that the Jedi can't take sides before the senate says so.
False, since the JC send two Jedi to help Padme against the TF. So they have already taken a side and sending 3-4 more Jedi will make no difference in this regard.

The argument that the JC didn't believe Qui-Gon.
Also false as the JC are worried and want to find out more about Maul. They talk about using all their resources and they send Qui-Gon with Padme to draw Maul out. So while they are not certain that Maul is a sith, they are certain enough that action is required.

The argument that two Jedi would be enough against Maul.
Pretty stupid as Qui-Gon, a master, could not beat Maul on Tatooine and had to make a quick escape and as I've mentioned, there is also the TF army to consider.
Maul can make us of it and the Jedi also have to protect Padme from it.

And in closing, neither Padme nor the Jedi knew that the blockade was gone. So for all they knew, they would face the same thing that almost destroyed their ship the first time and now they can't jump away. So what would likely happen, based on what they know, their ship would get shot at as soon as it arrives and either be blown up or captured.
But the TF decide to be kind and withdraw all but one of their ships as the plot needs it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I've to agree with The_Phantom_Calamari , Rickleo123 Anakin in Ep.II and Obi-Wan in Ep.II didn't do any better than Qui-Gon against Dooku. Is that mean they are poor swordsmen? No, it's just how good Maul and Dooku were.

Also Qui-Gon trained Obi-Wan, he lay the foundation for the greatest swordsman of their era, Obi-Wan Kenobi. And he trained by another great swordsman, by his former master Dooku. Qui-Gon was good at swordfighting, almost every expanded universe data states this. It's just the Sith is more powerful, because they waited for 1000 years for their revenge. Sidious one-shotted Agen Kolar and Tiin, and then killed Kit Fisto in 3 strikes, that doesn't make them poor swordsmen, it's just Sidious was extremely powerful and skillful.

 

The battle of Naboo lasted 30 seconds? Learning something new every day...

Not really. You do know the Jedi have limited numbers and work on a galactic scale, right? To put things in perspective, there are 4 times more people working for the UN than there are Jedi in the whole galaxy.

No, they say they will use all of their resources to discover his identity. Then the Amidala decides to return to Naboo, and they change the plan accordingly. Now, unlike before, there's a good chance the attacker will reveal himself again, and Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan ended up being enough to face him, as seen with Maul's defeat.

 

So what you are saying was ANH lied again. The Jedi didn't keep the peace. They just happened to be around during peace time. You can't really credit them with keeping the peace if they operate as such:

Mission 1: One Senate member nation is running a blockade on another. Send two Jedi to talk in a conference room to negotiate a settlement.

Mission 2: An actual invasion occurred of one Senate member nation of the other. The people are suffering. And to make matters worse, a Sith could possibly be there. Send ....... uhhhh .... two Jedi.

Mission 3: We have a Jedi funeral ceremony and a post war ceremony where we pat each other on the back. The immediate threat has been neutralized. OMG. Let's go everybody. That includes you, Jedi Council.

Yup. The Jedi sure had their priorities right for resource management. Sounds like they needed to fall. Luke was right. The Jedi must end. They are only good for ceremony attendance and igniting galaxy wide war on democracy.

EDIT.
I forgot the best part.

OB1
Let's go find the body of the Sith

Mace
Eh. I'm sure he's dead and we will never hear from him again

OB1
But it will only take a few minutes. You traveled so far. What's a few more yards?

Mace
Nope. The party's starting.

Yoda
Get some I must. Dead Sith body a bummer will be.

 

First, you know what? Capturing Maul will almost certainly aid in discovering his identity.
So since the jedi will use ALL their resources in uncovering as much about Maul as possible, knowing where he will be or having a strong suspicion about it. Then that kind of implies using at least a significant portion of ALL of those resources.
One jedi master and one padawan is nowhere near that.

So the Jedi know or strongly suspect that Maul will go after Padme when she goes back to Naboo.
So let's send enough Jedi to capture him but not too many to scare him off?
I would think that this number is above one master and one padawan.
Esp since the master in question is one whom the council don't fully trust and one who has disobeyed them in the past. All the more reason to send along one or two masters that sit on the council.

It would be like if the FBI is hunting down a notorious criminal. And the head of the FBI says that they will use ALL the bureau's resources to capture this criminal.
Then the FBI has a strong lead to were this criminal is. And they decide to send all of two agents, one of whom is a rookie and that hasn't even graduated yet.
Seems logical?

As to the second point, that Obi-Wan was enough to kill Maul.
First, the Jedi did not know that ahead of time so your excuse is "The JC read the script."
Second and more importantly, the Jedi want INFORMATION, not a dead body.
They want to know all they can about Maul.
And at the end, since Maul was killed, they know very little.
They know that he was skilled enough to kill a Jedi Master but also stupid and arrogant to the point where a padawan is able to best him. This was apparently enough to convince them that Maul was a sith, why is not explained.
That is pretty much it. They don't even know his name.
Capturing him alive would have had much greater potential of learning more.

Who was his master/apprentice? Why are they working with the TF?
How have they been able to stay hidden without the Jedi sensing it?
What are their plans?

In closing, an alive Maul would be far more useful to the jedi than his dead body.
So the Naboo mission was not that successful, sure the TF lost and one sith is dead.
That is about it. One Jedi Master died and the JC know nothing more about the sith than before.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

No, ANH didn't lie. The Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice so they didn't "happen to be around during peace time". They managed to keep the peace and have no full scale war since the Republic's inception.

The Trade Federation is not a nation.

Yes, they've sent two Jedi to protect the Queen after her decision to return to the planet and discover the indentity of the dark warrior.

?! What exactly were you expecting? Gunray was arrested, the dark warrior was confirmed to be a Sith and the planet was safe. Why do you want them to stay there?

You're already out of arguments, I see.

"Almost certainly"? I think a trained Sith Lord would hardly spill any beans if captured.

No. The Jedi say they will use all their resources to discover the identity of Qui-Gon's attacker. That means checking databases, seeking rumours and reports, etc... Later, Amidala decides to return. The situation has changed, now there's a chance the dark warrior will reveal himself again. So there's no need to look for him, he'll come out for them. And as such, they send Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to face him. And they were right. He did come out, and they did face him and he was defeated! I guess they were enough. No more Jedi needed.

Once he was defeated, they managed to confirm Qui-Gon's suspicion. That he was a Sith Lord and that they have indeed return. The end.

This desperate, pointless argument is simply grasping at straws for nothing. It's ridiculous.

 

Anakin lost to Dooku as a padawan, Obi-Wan lost to a Jedi Master with decades more combat experience than him.

Wow the strawman is real on this forum. I never said Qui-Gon was a poor swordsman, I said he isn't as good at swordfighting as the Jedi I named above. Just like Reggie Miller isn't as good of a basketball player as Michael Jordan; this isn't equivalent to saying he is a poor player. This is stating a simple truth.

Did anybody here say that, or are you just creating a strawman argument to deflect from the fact that you cannot refute my point?

Yes because the goal of the Jedi was to lose a life in order to take a life...wait, er, ah, no that sounds wrong.

You're stance that the operation is a success because they only suffered the unnecessary casualty of 50% of the Jedi assigned and were unable to find Maul's identity, which is what the Council requested, is ridiculous.

 

Then Yoda shouldn't lose to anyone considering that he has at least +800 years more combat experience than anyone. But Sidious defeated him.

I agree with that. He wasn't good as Windu and Yoda. However you said this ;

Define ''good enough'' , I think he is good enough. But not good enough to defeat a Sith lord alone.

 

What does that have to do with Qui-Gon being feinted into completely exposing his torso after less than 30 seconds against Maul. Please explain.

Good enough would be, being able to hold his own against an opponent for a respectable amount of time. Do I need to specify? I don't know 5 minutes maybe?

 

Because the Jedi are weird. They send almost the entire order to Geonosis, but send just two Jedi to deal with Maul and later rescue Palpatine.

 

The Naboo conflict was a small one, so having more than the Jedi already assigned seems like overkill.

And the Chancellor's rescue happened during wartime, when the Jedinare all likely occupied with different missions. Perhaps they also thought 2 Jedi would more easily infiltrate the ship and get to the chancellor.

In the Geonosis situation, the Jedi aren't just saving two of their own, they're also trying to stop the Separatists in a last ditch attempt to keep the peace, and are only saved by the clones.

 

Your point is that he held his own for 30 seconds. Considering that his duel lasted for nearly as long as the battle for Naboo, I stand by what I said.

 

And your basis for this is?
Also the Jedi were not certain that Maul even was a Sith.
And, Vader was able to read Luke's mind despite Luke being quite powerful.
If ten or so Master combined their efforts, they might be able to break through Maul's defences.
And most importantly, an alive captive will at the very least give as much info as a dead body and almost certainly more.
Did the Jedi even get Maul's body?
If they had that then doing finger prints, DNA test and the like could give them something.

Plus, by sending only two Jedi, if they are both killed, then the Jedi learn nothing at all.

Really?
So according to you, the jedi will use dozens if not hundreds of people to look through old files, records and books in the hope that they might find something about this guy.
Which is rather unlikely since the sith have been in hiding for 1000 years.

But once they have a lead to were he might be, then they send only two people.
So for desk work, they will use a lot of people but when it comes to actual field work, now they only use two. The jedi are either morons or very lazy.
Also, the jedi say "That is the clue we need to unravel this mystery of the Sith."
So Qui-Gon's missions was vital, the clue they needed. And yet they could not bother to send a few more people. People they did have at hand since they were planning to use them to look through the files.

And you are again using the argument that Obi-Wan was able to beat Maul and so none more were needed. The Jedi did not know that ahead of time unless they read the script.

It would be like in ANH, since Luke was the one who blew up the DS, the rebels only send him in an X-wing, despite them having many others.
Or in TPM, since Anakin was the one who blew up the TF ship, he is the only one that flies away and the other pilots just sit there.
That would look kind of stupid wouldn't it?

Also, having the Jedi treat this as something rather unimportant and minor in that they can not be bothered to send more than two Jedi, one who is not even a knight. It doesn't add to the tension of the mission.
The Jedi think that this will be easy and no big deal. That rather deflates the drama.

Imagine instead that the Jedi remained unconvinced and this was all Qui-Gons' idea.
That he feels he has to find Maul and get more info to convince the JC.
That would explain why it is only him and Obi-Wan.

And how did they do that? They know nothing more than before, they don't even know his name.
The only new thing is that Maul was good enough to kill Qui-Gon but dumb enough to loose to Obi-Wan.
And if Maul had not been given a massive idiot Ball to hold, Obi-Wan would have died as well and the Jedi would know nothing at all and had lost two of it's members.
And maybe if they had sent 2-3 more jedi, then maybe Qui-Gon would not have died and they might even have captured Maul.

[/QUOTE]

No what is desperate and ridiculous are your very unconvincing excuses.
The Jedi only sent two people because they read the script.
The Jedi will use loads of people to dig through records but not to go out into the field.

This is just one of a lot of examples of the contrived writing that is in TPM.
Along with the TF removing their blockade for no reason and unknown to the heroes. And them being very kind to leave enemy fighters armed and fueled, ready to be stolen.
Valourm and Padme not once considering to call the Jedi as witnesses.
Maul becoming very stupid at the end.
And so on.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

You're just making that up.


The shield opens at 2:32, Qui-Gon is slain at 3:04. I apologize i was wrong. He lasted 32 seconds.

 

The duel actually starts when those doors in the hangar open and the opening fanfare of "Duel of the Fates" starts up. While Padme and the others are heading towards the Throne Room, both of the Jedi and Maul are dueling away at full power. The part near the pit between Qui-Gon and Maul is, in fact, near the end of the duel. And, even after a chance to rest, you have to figure Qui-Gon must be pretty tired by then.

 

Qui-Gon is only able to stay alive against Maul, in a close area, for 32 seconds, real time.

And I'm sure poor conditioning is the hall mark of a Jedi swordmaster? In contrast an 800+ years old Yoda was able to duel both Palpatine and Dooku to standstills, without a break in between, for multiple minutes.

Qui-Gon lost in 32 seconds but he's a GREAT SWORDSMAN excuse checklist
- He had a bad moment.
- He's old.
- Hair was too long.
- He was tired.
- He had jetlag from the flight.
....anything more to add?

 

Uh, Qui-gon already fought him alone longer than that. First on Tatooine and then after he and Obi-wan were separated, but before the final moments of the duel. Maul beat him not because Qui-gon was not good enough, but because Maul saw an opening and took advantage of it. Dooku was better than Anakin, but lost in the same manner. It doesn't matter how good a swordsman you are, but how you take advantage in the situation. Maul saw an opening and exploited it by hitting him in the face with his saber and then running him through.



Years later, he would try that again with Obi-wan, only the latter learned from the past.

The Jedi were not supposed to be at Naboo to begin with and they couldn't send any more without starting an incident that would strip them of their power to help. Until the Senate was stabilized with a new Chancellor, the Jedi couldn't interfere. They could only send two Jedi to protect the queen. If the mysterious warrior appears, the two will be sufficient to deal with him since they doubt he was a Sith.

It also means going to places like Malachor V and Moraband, where the Sith were known to have had Sith Temples and seeing if they were still there, or had been there in recent years. As well as traveling back to the last known sightings of the Sith and double checking things there.