Why weren't the Sith mentioned by name in the OT?

Ironically, they both seemed to have the Rule Of Two in the back of their minds as what they would do (or would happen), but when talking to each other, implied that there could be three Dark Lords. So they weren't following it as dogma, they just felt it was a natural outcome.

Cue someone saying, "But the Rule Of Two didn't exist when they made the OT anyway..."

Yes, I know, but I think it's relevant as part of the usual discussion as to whether the PT & OT match, of which the mention of the term Sith is a part. The fact that neither Palpatine or Vader was following the RoT as an actual rule in the OT implies that they were no longer following the Sith 'religion'. The Sith & its rules were a means to an end, one which had been achieved.

 

I see. So we should call Episode VI "The Return"?

Vader had convinced himself that he could not defeat Palpatine without Luke's help. Remember that even Palpatine wanted Luke killed at the beginning of ESB.

 

Yep, "The Return" would be good or else "Destruction of the Two Nasty Dark-Side-Using Guys Who Rule The Galaxy,"

MBJ, I think we're talking past each other a bit here, but anyway...

There are a number of reasons why the six films don't fit together too well as a saga IMO, but the RoT has never really bothered me too much as I think the way it's presented in the PT fits with what happens in the OT well enough. I think for a while there Vader wanted to overthrow The Emperor with Luke's help and I still think that despite what he may have said to Vader, The Emperor's plan was always to have one or other of them as apprentice, but not both. The Sith are pretty adept at talking in riddles after all, even to each other.

 

Why weren't the Sith mentioned by name in the OT?

Because Ric Olie wasn't there.

"Look it's a sith and he's evil."

 

I know, that's the point. Why didn't he attempt to recruit Luke away from the Emperor right then and there, Knowing that if Luke accepted the Emperor's offer then that meant he(Vader) was out and therefor disposable.

 

Well, I didn't want to overdo it.

 

You mean, right in front of Palpatine? Well, for one thing, Palpatine could probably shock both of them right where they stood. Secondly, Vader had to make sure that when Luke struck Palpatine down, he did so in a manner that avoided two possibilties:

1) Luke would try to strike down Palps, who is hoping for Luke to make the attempt, and in the process turning deliberately to the Dark Side, which would somehow cause Luke to put himself under the control of the Dark Side and pledge allegiance to Palpatine, and subsequently turning on Vader.........DEEP INHALE!

or 2) Luke, who Lucas has said was more powerful than Vader at that point, would succeed in taking out Palpatine, and might conceivably make himself the master, and Vader his apprentice.

If you've read the novelization, you'd know that Vader is threading a very small needle throughout the duel with Luke - even admitting to himself that should things not go exactly as he thinks they should, he's fully prepared to kill Luke, rather than have Luke fall to the Dark Side in a way that causes Luke to turn against him.

 

Both Palpatine & Vader were arrogant enough to think that should Luke turn to the Dark Side, he would take either as his master. Palpatine believed it because he was the most powerful, Vader believed it because he was his father.

While they both probably took the possibility of Luke not turning into consideration (in which case they could just kill him & preserve the status quo), the idea that Vader could turn back was simply never considered as a realistic option. That's what defeated them.

 

Agreed. I've always said that Luke's power made him a trojan horse. Palps was well aware of the threat Luke posed, but Palps and Vader were so hungry for power that that's all they ended up focusing on instead. Their desire to use Luke against each other overwhelmed their good sense.

 

Palpatine was very arrogant, the same way the Jedi Order were in the PT. As soon as he asked Vader if his feeling were clear on the matter at hand with Luke, he should have known then that Vader was faulty. When he asserts to Luke Skywalker that his father could never be turned from the Dark Side, it was he was gravely mistaken. It was this short sighted brand of thinking that destroyed with Sith.

 

I really think that the Vader of the latter stages of ROTJ was so conflicted that he was almost resigned to whatever fate awaited him when the three met. When he says "It's too late for me," that really says it all. He's not all fire and brimstone about the Dark Side anymore. He's more or less saying that maybe once he could've been turned back to the light, but now he's so mired in the dark that he couldn't leave even if he wanted to.

The Emperor, on the other hand, has it all planned out. Either Luke turns and takes out Vader in the process, or he refuses, is zapped, and the status quo remains. The Emperor sees Vader as a total pawn at that stage.

The only eventuality he was totally unprepared for was, of course, the one that transpired.

 

Vader's conflict came when he didn't kill Luke on Bespin during the events of The Empire Strikes Back, which led up to the huge testimony of letting Luke know that he was his father. After that, Vader knew all along that if he wouldn't harm Luke then he wouldn't let anyone else harm Luke either, even the Emperor. Given Anakin's past history and the deep love that he had for Padme Amidala, and with her being the reason he turned to the dark side in the first place, it was only fitting that Luke would be the reason why Vader would turn from the dark side.


It's amazing how the Emperor could sense that Vader wanted to continue his search for Luke, and could wonder if his feelings concerning Luke was clear when Vader could feel Luke's presence when the Emperor could not, but yet it never crossed Palpatine's mind that Vader would turn on him and bring about an end to the Sith. All the signs were there for Darth Sidious to see, but he could never see what it would lead to.

 

This concern for Luke is evident in the revised rough draft of Revenge Of The Jedi, there's a telling line after an exchange between Vader & Jerjerrod (Moff Jerjerrod is a far more dangerous, assured character than the one in the film):

VADER (to himself)
Luke, beware, you are the Emperor's prey now.

It's a massive jump from the vicious warlord in ESB, whose primary motivation for luring Luke to the Dark Side was to increase his own power & establish himself as supreme ruler of the galaxy. This concern/compassion marks a progression, brought on by his awareness of Luke's existence, which fits in with the PT.

Although the plot details obviously changed, I'm of the opinion that the major change in the character of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker occurred between ESB & ROTJ, rather than in the sixteen years between the OT & PT.
It's largely due to the fact that the character & his backstory wasn't fully developed at the time of ESB, having been subjected to a massive, sudden twist during the writing of the film. The Vader of ESB was still much the same character he was in ANH, it just turned out he was Luke's father. By ROTJ, however, some explanations & reasons were needed, & this was when he headed towards the more sympathetic characterisation of the PT.

 

Actually, I don't think there was the same sort of conflict - at least not at the beginning. Vader did look at Luke as his son. but he also looked at him as a means to take out Palpatine.

EMPEROR: We have a new enemy - Luke Skywalker.

VADER: Yes, my master.

EMPEROR: He could destroy us.
---------------------
VADER: Search your feelings. You know
it to be true.

LUKE: No! No! No!

VADER: Luke. You can destroy the Emperor.
He has foreseen this. It is your
destiny. Join me, and together
we can rule the galaxy as father
and son. Come with me. It is the
only way.

Notice the difference in pronouns. As I've said before, the Dark Side never gave Anakin any powers or abilities he didn't already possess. For all the "power" he got from the Dark Side, he still couldn't achieve what he wanted - total control. He didn't believe that he could kill Palpatine on his own, but now his son comes along, and is very powerful. Vader is hoping that because he is Luke's father, that Luke won't kill him in addition to killing Palpatine. For the first time, Palpatine is scared, and Vader's going to use his son for his own benefit.

Of course, Luke similarly believed that because Vader was his father, that Vader wouldn't turn him over to the Emperor. They both counted on their familial connection to aide them in their struggle.

 

Yeah, the only guy who didn't factor in familial connection was the guy who most needed to.

 

Because if we didn't see it on screen, it didn't happen.

 

All of what you stated is wihtin the Return of the Jedi novelization, just not in the way you stated. The novel confirmed that the Emperor was indeed scared of Luke. The book also said that Vader thought Luke would best him. As for Luke ruling the galaxy with Vader as father and son, it could had happened had Luke turned to the dark side at Cloud City. But Luke refused to turn and then the Emperor has to get involved later on. Even the two of them (Vader and Luke) together wouldn't have been able to take on Palpatine on the DeathStar. Even combined, they both weren't powerful enough. But Luke became a Jedi. Vader turned away from the dark side of the Force, and Darth Sidious was the one who died.

 

I disagree - if Luke turned to the Dark Side, Luke would have Finished off Sidous - he is a Skywalker, most powerful Force User. A Dark Side Luke, with Vader's help, would have meant one dead Sidious - as the novel says, Sidious was afraid of Luke - he knew he could destroy him if not turned in the right way...

 

Why weren't the Sith mentioned by name in the OT?

Are we still on this??

Anyways.. Vader & Sidious are the only two people in the Empire and probably in the Republic, with knowledge of the force and the Sith. Non of this is that vital anymore when the Jedi are gone. The Sith rule the galaxy, better to keep it all a secret. What if the people of the galaxy found out that the sovereign rulers of the Empire were Sith sorcerers? People have probably heard tales or rumors of their history somehow. It could probably create unnecessary and unwanted attention.

Not even Tarkin refered to Vader as a Sith; only that he was part of that(Jedi) religion. Yet Vader is actually part of a very different religion than that of the Jedi.
Although i find it strange that a high ranking Moff like Tarkin had no knowledge of the Sith or their history, i personally think he did. But i would bet that no one else than Vader knew the Emperors real name & identity. Lord Sidious, Dark Lord Of The Sith. Or?

The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.
Tarkin - ANH

So did Tarkin know that Sidious used "Magic", just as Vader did? Did he know the Emperor by the name Darth Sidious or Palpatine? Because this line seems to imply that they didnt think the Emperor is of the same sort as Vader.

 

I'm not too sure where you think I was wrong, but if Luke and Vader combined weren't enough to take out Palpatine, then how did Vader accomplish it on his own?

I imagine that points strongly to the possibility that had Luke assisted, Vader might have survived.

And if Luke and Vader combined weren't sufficiently strong enough to take Palpatine, then why was Palpatine so scared of Luke? In fact, Palpatine says "He can destroy US", meaning one Jedi taking out BOTH Sith (which ultimately did happen, just not in a manner anyone predicted.) That's a pretty significant thing for Palpatine to admit to, which would explain why he wanted Luke dead. YOU may not think it was possible, but Palpatine certainly did, and the novelization refers to this possibility several times.

In fact, it's kinda funny to say that Luke and Vader combined couldn't take out Palpatine, and then admit that Palpatine was killed. It's not like he committed suicide.

Then again, I don't think Luke would have "turned" in the same way Anakin did. Palpatine had decades to manipulate Anakin and mold him into the apprentice he wanted. Luke had a much stronger moral character and faith than Anakin ever had. Even if Luke had turned, I don't think he would have found himself suddenly under Palpatine's control. It was fear that caused Vader to fall under Palpatine's control, but even then, he was planning on ways to take out Palpatine - certainly not the actions of a mindless automaton.

 

Luke would have needed time to develop the strength and power in order to kill Palpatine whether as a Jedi or a dark sider. When Luke asked Yoda if the dark side was stronger, Yoda told him no, that the dark side was just quicker, easier, more seductive. Only a Master of the dark side like Palpatine himself would have been able to kill Palpatine. The New Jedi Order Luke would have easily killed Palpatine, but the OT Luke was still not strong enough.

 

Just out of interest, did Vader use the force at all to off Sidious? If not, then pretty much any big strong person with the element of surprise could've done exactly the same thing.

 

That's a good question. Now I wanna know. It doesn't seem like he did. Maybe to prevent some damage as he carried him. You know, so it didn't collapse halfway there.

 

I'm of the opinion that he didn't (Force-lift?), but some folks have argued that he used the Force to grant him strength or endurance, etc....

After all, that would be using the Force for attack, and he certainly wasn't acting in self defense.

Unless he killed his master in his sleep....or blind-sided his master from behind and threw him down a shaft...

 

Just like Obi-Wan and Yoda in the PT.

Good thing Yoda didn't use the word "self", then.