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Wicca

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by flying_fishi, May 19, 2002.

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  1. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Darth Geist,

    Very good point.

    One should never confuse religious beliefs with morals and values.


     
  2. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    The Jeduo/Christian God is not "personified", as you put it. There are certainly artistic representations of an old man with a white beard, but if that's your concept, your understanding of the religion is quite shallow.
     
  3. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    The term "personification," when applied to religion, doesn't neccessarily connotate a physical body. It simply illustrates the difference between a conscious, self-aware deity and a "god" who consists of the natural law.
     
  4. Jenavira

    Jenavira Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 1998
    "Perhaps it might help to point out that numerous individuals who have been involved in various occult practices have reported what they believe to be very real encounters with non-human entities which were clearly not benevolent. This is not complete proof in and of itself, but I raise it to point out that people's opinion of witchcraft and other such practices may not be based simply on a "blind adherence" to the admonitions of their religion.

    I'd like to address this from a different, albeit still Pagan, point of view.

    I, like quite a few other Pagans I know, think of the "occult" as you say, magic-working as I think we'd call it, as a practical study; manipulation of the natural forces of the Universe, not just prayer in a different form. (Though that's certainly part of it.)

    In this context, yes, there are people who use this ability for unsavory things. There are entities thrown off by this unsavory practice that could definitely be described as "not benevolent". However, this is definitely not all there is to magic-working, these are just the horror stories you hear.

    Very few Pagans will claim that their religion is all sweetness and light. Because of the nature of Paganism and magic-working - polar, rather than catholic - there are opportunities for people to do some pretty nasty things. This is supplemented by the Christian propaganda against Paganism that paints it as evil. But as I said, this is definitely not the *entire* picture, and shouldn't be looked at as such.



    Jenavira
     
  5. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    "There are entities thrown off by this unsavory practice that could definitely be described as "not benevolent."

    Jenavira, since you're here, let me ask you firsthand: Would you mind going into a little more detail?
     
  6. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Actually, my mother used to teach Sunday school. I was brought up Christian until my beliefs evolved beyond it.

    When I speak of personfication, I refer to giving human qualities to something; speach, thought, emotion, etc.

    So yes, most all gods are personified in some aspect. Especially the Christian god.

     
  7. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Just because. I have no way of proving anything to you here, nor do I feel like I should.

    Why not?

    I do respect other's rights. I may attack your religion, but I don't attack your rights to believe in that particular religion. Nor do I attack you yourself.

    a) You can't attack my rights to believe in whatever I want to believe. Those rights aren't for you to take away, at least not without the consent of 3/4 of Congress, and a constitutional amendment that would repeal the First amendment. Therefore, saying you don't attack my rights is a moot point... because you aren't in any position to, anyway.

    b) Why do you attack other religions?
     
  8. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Heh, don't be too hard on him, Snowdog, he's actually a nice guy when he's not talking about religion :p
     
  9. Jenavira

    Jenavira Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 1998
    "There are entities thrown off by this unsavory practice that could definitely be described as "not benevolent."

    Jenavira, since you're here, let me ask you firsthand: Would you mind going into a little more detail?


    Sure, no problem...but this is the part where people disinclined to believe in this stuff start to think you're crazy...

    When one starts to study magic in earnest and pays a little attention to what's going on in the world around them, one runs across spirits of a sort. Some of them are natural; they come from a particular stream, or cluster of trees, something like that. Nature spirits. Some of them aren't, and it's up for debate as to where they come from. Whatever they are, they cling to people who aren't particularly discriminating about their ethics. (To put it kindly.) Quite frankly, I couldn't tell you if they just *exist* (I tend not to think so) or if they're a product of someone doing something in particular, intended or unintended.

    In other words, there's nasty stuff out there, and people are fooling themselves if they think there isn't. To claim that they come from some all-evil "Satan", though, is pushing it a bit, I think.

    Hope that made some kind of sense...

    Jenavira

     
  10. Republic_Clone_69

    Republic_Clone_69 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Perhaps it's been made that way now to be "PC", but Paganism was originally a horrible and violent form of religion. And it has the potential to turn that way again.

    First of all, I must agree with Geist that all faiths outside of the Judeo-Christian circle are automatically, and unfairly, lumped together as "pagan". If you are talking about the "original" human philosophy/theology system (animism) you couldn't be farther from the truth concerning its "brutality". I'd also like to say that your statement is very humorous when you consider the vicious and bloody history of Christianity. Does that mean it has a potential to "turn that way again"?

    I find it strange that you can plainly state that you find all those who oppose your views to be evil, and get away with it. If I said something to that effect that wasn't supported by my religion, I would get a flame warning, or worse. [face_plain]

    I want to ask all of you... how could JM201's comments make anyone want to be Christian?


     
  11. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    Jenavira:

    How are they perceived? Do you actually see them? Is it just a feeling?

    Personally, I've never seen anything I'd call supernatural, but I'm interested to hear your take on it.
     
  12. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    After all these posts, someone (Jenavira) is finally willing to be upfront about the subject. I'd call that progress.

    By their very nature, these subjects are not well-suited to "debate". When the discussion becomes framed as one, you end up with individuals trying to "win" the debate, which is simply not possible in this case.
     
  13. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    What if "the Devine" came down right now and said that one way was right, and that Wicca was not that way? Would you renounce it? Just out of curiosity.

    First off, if Devine came and told me only one way was right, I'd say, "Hey, no arguing with the ultimate drag queen!" ...were it not for the fact that Devine Brown is dead.

    Second, if God came down and said one way was right, and Wicca wasn't that way... I'd say "What the hell kind of a god are you anyway? You put us here, you give us brains, intellect, reason, and 'free will' and then intend for us to just completely throw our faculties out the window and smooch your butt for absent-mindedly watching us wallow in our own crapulence for the past two-thousand years, without showing yourself to us all to prove which religion is right... you leave us in this ridiculous conundrum when all you had to do was come down here and tell us all at once what time it is?

    You think I owe you somethin? Must be all that white glittery crap up there in heaven that's been burning out your retinas and you ain't been payin' attention... but we've managed to scratch through the past two-thousand years without you just fine... and now like some deadbeat dad you show up at the last possible minute telling us we're grounded?!

    Why don't you just snap your fingers and vanish the universe in an instant and start all over if you hate us that much... or, kiss my butt and go to hell, god."

    That's what I'd tell God.

    But then, I know God won't do that... he hates religious fundamentalists... See, religious zealotry is this big practical joke... Satan made a bet with God that he could fool the world into thinking he was God, and God fell for it.

    Well, here we are... and religious zealots are lining up to buy Satan's spiel...

    Am I wrong? Prove it.

    Perhaps it's been made that way now to be "PC", but Paganism was originally a horrible and violent form of religion. And it has the potential to turn that way again.

    What would you call the Inquisition and the Crusades? The good old days?

    In what sense were "pagan" religions more horrible and violent than Christianity has ever been? PPOR.
     
  14. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Jenavira,

    I grew up very close to New Hope, Pa. which has been a major Wiccan town for hundreds of years.

    I have witnessed interesting things, also.
    It is tough to understand if their "ghosts" or "poltergeists" or whatever, but recognizing their existence is a big step to a larger understanding.

    Like I have said, I believe in the Force. It is an energy that makes up all matter in the universe. Our "spirits" are energy. When our bodies die, this energy will flow into some sort of cycle. All things in the universe seem to flow in cyclic motion.

    Energy cannot be created or destroyed...only transformed from one form to another.
     
  15. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    "By their very nature, these subjects are not well-suited to "debate". When the discussion becomes framed as one, you end up with individuals trying to "win" the debate, which is simply not possible in this case."

    That being the case, I think the best thing to do with this kind of discussion is exchange ideas. Who knows, one of us might learn something. :)
     
  16. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    Yes, you might learn something. You should stick around. :D
     
  17. Jenavira

    Jenavira Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 1998
    How are they perceived? Do you actually see them? Is it just a feeling?


    It's a very strong feeling, a bit like you get when someone stares intently at the back of your neck for several minutes. And they often smell. (Like incense, perfume, earth...) And apparently a lot of people sense them differently; some see something visually, some feel cold... I don't have loads of experience in the area, but I have been in places that have obviously been tarnished by strong feelings of one kind or another. (They're thick in college dorms, actually. Lots of people in a small space.)


    Jenavira
     
  18. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    "Yes, you might learn something. You should stick around."

    Funny; I was just about to say the same to you. :D
     
  19. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    As I'm sure you realize, I already inferred that from your previous post. My views on this subject are clear, and despite the desperate need of some to believe that they're based on "ignorance and superstition", they are not.
     
  20. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    Even if there are supernatural beings in the world (and I'm not much of a believer, but for argument's sake, let's make that assumption), what has you so convinced that they all follow a concrete entity called Satan?
     
  21. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    My experiences are very similar to Jenavira's however I did encounter some more pronounced manifestations.

    I used to rent a house which was built in 1942. Ever since we moved in, I felt a very strong presence of a woman. I would sense this presence mostly when I was alone.

    I had the computer set up in the basement and on more than one occasion, I would feel the strong presence in a sudden intstance, then something would tug at the back of my shirt.

    Of course nothing was their and this happened many times over the three years I lived their.

    Was it a ghost? Who knows. Or was it my own senses manifesting an "entity" into existence?

    I believe people have that ability to manifest things...especially when gathered in numbers and focusing on a specific subject,object or even a God.

    But this brings us back to my belief that certain people can be more in tune with the Force than others.
     
  22. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    Geist- I didn't say that. The afterlife, for obvious reasons, is a mystery. There are enough accounts of human spirits or ghosts that I'm willing to believe some wander the earth for reasons I won't venture to guess. The "evil spirits" we speak of, on the other hand, are not human at all.

    The "magic-working" that Jenavira speaks of is very real, in my opinion, and it consists of knowledge that human beings have been aware of for millenia. The problem is that God never intended for us to discover it.

    Perhaps that clarifies my view. I could go further, but then, as Jenavira said previously, we get into territory that's pretty far out for some people.
     
  23. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 18, 2001
    "The problem is that God never intended for us to discover it."

    So God made a mistake?
     
  24. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 18, 2002
    The abilty to manifest is evident in the wiccan magic that you speak of.

    Is it supernatural or could be that many of these experiences that people have are created by the people involved?

    The Ouija board is a good example. It utilizes the energies of the people using it.
     
  25. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    No, S_o_K. The story of what happened is told in the Book of Genesis, and I'm sure you're familiar with it. To put it in the most simplistic terms, God created us, and one of His other creations, who was rebellious, interfered with us out of spite, with the goal of persuading us to serve him instead of God, thus becoming the ruler of the earth.

    Of course, that's just my view, and others are entitled to theirs.
     
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