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Wicca

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by flying_fishi, May 19, 2002.

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  1. ismaren

    ismaren Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    Is it supernatural or could be that many of these experiences that people have are created by the people involved?

    The Ouija board is a good example. It utilizes the energies of the people using it.


    I like the way you put that. I've often wondered if the people who are miraculously cured through prayer are actually cured through their god, of if they just channel so much energy that their body gets a kickstart. I think that's typical of eastern beliefs, the art of self healing.
     
  2. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    "God created us, and one of His other creations, who was rebellious, interfered with us out of spite, with the goal of persuading us to serve him instead of God, thus becoming the ruler of the earth."

    Of course, there's the issue of God creating Satan as well, knowing full well that he'd rebel and "lead humans astray". What really gets me is that independent thought was the first sin. But that's for another thread.
     
  3. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    I'd say from what I can tell, all of God's creations have independent thought. I know my dog does. ;)
     
  4. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 18, 2002
    Exactly, ismaren

    The "miracle curing" is a good example.

    I believe it is the people who focus and bring forth the energy needed to help those individuals help themselves.

     
  5. Jenavira

    Jenavira Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 1998
    "The problem is that God never intended for us to discover it."

    I'd like to ask what I think is a different question...why exactly would God never intend for us to discover it? Admittedly, it's dangerous; but then, so is fire. Were we never intended to discover that either?

    I'd also like to add that I find it amusing that every discussion on Paganism/Wicca I've ever seen on this board has eventually turned into a discussion on Christianity. Just an observation.


    Jenavira
     
  6. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    how truthful.

    This is a Wiccan thread.
     
  7. Java_Jedi

    Java_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    Ok I got here late...lol... as far as pagan brutality... Look at the inquitition!!!! The Crusades.... "pagans" did run off a fight a war based on religion... " Pagans" did kill followers of thier own path for worshiping differently.(services in english instead of latin) " Pagans" didn't kill healers and midwives. You are lumping all non christian believers into YOUR view of paganism. And for that matter, Paganism of old is just that... of old. Neo-Paganism draws from a few of the old ways as well as new ways.

    Christians haves Satan. Most Pagans do not. As for myself... I am pagan-non-deist.
    And if I die tomorrow and am proven wrong, then I will have learned something new even in death. lol... The same could be said for all of us, but till that happens.... there is no perfect answer. We are human, and humans have been proven wrong more times than not. :)
     
  8. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 18, 2002
    I feel that many people, such as myself are developing their own belief system.

    I cannot catagorize my "religion" as anything but my own. Qui-Runeism. Hmm, has a nice ring :)

     
  9. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    I'd also like to add that I find it amusing that every discussion on Paganism/Wicca I've ever seen on this board has eventually turned into a discussion on Christianity. Just an observation.

    It is unfortunate. I've tried to keep my posts on the subject as much as possible. It seems that Christians are always expected to explain and defend their views in great detail, even though the thread theoretically ought to be asking the probing questions of Wiccans.

    I'd like to ask what I think is a different question...why exactly would God never intend for us to discover it? Admittedly, it's dangerous; but then, so is fire. Were we never intended to discover that either?

    I think what I'd say is that we simply weren't created with the intent that we would need, or have any desire, to get involved in these sorts of things. Ever since we have, the world has been full of suffering.
     
  10. Jenavira

    Jenavira Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 1998
    It is unfortunate. I've tried to keep my posts on the subject as much as possible. It seems that Christians are always expected to explain and defend their views in great detail, even though the thread theoretically ought to be asking the probing questions of Wiccans.

    Well...all right, we've all slipped points at times. But I agree; Paganism has for too long been defending itself as an alternative to Christianity, and it should be defending itself on its own grounds.

    Who wants to ask the probing questions? :)

    I think what I'd say is that we simply weren't created with the intent that we would need, or have any desire, to get involved in these sorts of things. Ever since we have, the world has been full of suffering.

    And I do realize this kind of contradicts what I just said, but anyway...The world has always been full of suffering. (I realize this does directly contradict your beliefs, but as neither of us are working from personal experience of "always", we should be able to disagree...) Magic is intended to help decrease that suffering. Like all human endeavors, sometimes it doesn't work that way, but that doesn't change the original intent. (And that <--- was the Pagan POV. See, I'm on topic. :D)


    Jenavira
     
  11. DesignSith

    DesignSith Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2000
    What if "the Devine" came down right now and said that one way was right, and that Wicca was not that way? Would you renounce it? Just out of curiosity.

    I find that highly unlikely. Quite frankly, as a realist, I'd be checking for smoke and mirrors. The gods are a lot more subtle than that.

    The gods are symbols, really. It's easier for us to personalize natural forces and give them names and personalities.

    Perhaps it's been made that way now to be "PC", but Paganism was originally a horrible and violent form of religion. And it has the potential to turn that way again.

    Yeah, because the Inquisition spread nothing but love and joy across Europe. There is ALWAYS the potential for evil in any faith. It's our job, as believers, to provide an enviroment that doesn't encourage bad apples to take root.

    Organized religion is a joke.

    I agree. I like my religon on a small scale, which is part of the reason why I'm Wiccan and not a sheep in Jesus's herd.

    The "miracle curing" is a good example. I believe it is the people who focus and bring forth the energy needed to help those individuals help themselves.

    And I've seen it happen for both Christians and Wiccans... You call it prayer, we call it magic. But it's the same thing: directing energy towards a goal.
     
  12. ismaren

    ismaren Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    I'd also like to add that I find it amusing that every discussion on Paganism/Wicca I've ever seen on this board has eventually turned into a discussion on Christianity. Just an observation.

    It's unfortunate, but as many people here have said, christianity has a nasty history of suppressing other religions. I think it's just natural human defense to link the two subjects.

    What if "the Devine" came down right now and said that one way was right, and that Wicca was not that way? Would you renounce it? Just out of curiosity.

    If I could prove it to myself that it was real, then I would convert, unless the religion stood for something I cannot stand for. If this deity told me cannabalism was the way I think I'd rather go to hell with all my cow eating friends. The same if he told me that Harry Potter is evil, or Rock music is bad. I would want valid reasons as to why wicca or Potter are so sinful.

    I feel that many people, such as myself are developing their own belief system.

    I find myself doing that. have never totally understood why organized religion is so great. why are you letting someone else tell you what to believe in? how to live your life?

    and now i'll probe some. I know a little about wicca, but i'm no expert. I guess one thing that's always confused me is the pentagram. Wiccans and Satanists/Christians seem to have two different ideas on it.
    someone care to explain?
     
  13. Saint_of_Killers

    Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 18, 2001
    If memory serves, the pentagram symbolizes the five elements(earth, air, water, fire, spirit) to the Wiccans.
     
  14. Republic_Clone_69

    Republic_Clone_69 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    A pentagram positioned "upwards" represents a human figure in balance (the points representing legs, arms, and a head). An upside-down pentagram (which Christians consider to be a symbol of evil) is a human out of balance.

     
  15. Jenavira

    Jenavira Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 1998
    It's unfortunate, but as many people here have said, christianity has a nasty history of suppressing other religions. I think it's just natural human defense to link the two subjects.


    That's what I'm saying...I think there's a better way to do it. Because as long as we're arguing Christianity, all we're going to talk about in Paganism is that it isn't evil. There is a lot more to get into than that...


    On the pentagram: Yes, there's a definite distinction between the point-up Wiccan pentagram and the point-down Satanist version. I've seen it described as similar to taking a cross and turning it upside-down. It's a perversion of the original symbol.


    Jenavira
     
  16. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Just as the Nazis perverted the Swastika, the symbol of nobility and spiritual power which my Indian (east) ancestors first introduced.

    It's interesting to note how people can take something that isn't theirs, and bastardize its meaning and use.

    [face_mischief]
     
  17. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    That is also true of the Nazi Swastika, which is reveresed, symbolizing chaos.

    Here's a question: Would it be accurate to say that a spell is ineffective without some sort of power fulfilling the request? In other words, as an analogy, you can build a radio, but it's useless unless you supply it with electricity.

    EDIT: Snowdog beat me to it.
     
  18. Jenavira

    Jenavira Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 1998
    Would it be accurate to say that a spell is ineffective without some sort of power fulfilling the request? In other words, as an analogy, you can build a radio, but it's useless unless you supply it with electricity.


    Well, pretty much. To an extent, a spell can work without the practitioner doing anything to help it along, but it won't have much effect. A lot of Wiccan texts will have you believe that a spell will work regardless of the effort you put into it, because the act of the ritual itself raises enough power to achieve the goal. I can't bring myself to believe that, as it's based on the assumption that these rituals are thousands of years old, which is utter nonsense - Gerald Gardner made most of them up in the early 20th century. (Some bits he lifted out of Quabalistic magic; these might help explain the power that is inherent in the ritual.)

    I'm going to have to agree with Cunningham and say that herbal magic is probably going to work regardless. (Think of it like this: if you take an asprin for a headache and don't make any other efforts to get rid of it, your headache is still going to go away. Or at least get better. The asprin has the power to do that; herbal magic operates on the same principle.)

    On the whole, though, the more power someone is able to channel into a spell, the better it works. This comes, like everything else, with practice. (And I'm not the *best* authority on this...my spells are iffy at best, as I haven't had as much practice as I'd like.) Two people can do the exact same spell with the same ritual, tools, and materials, and get drastically different results.


    Jenavira
     
  19. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    The next question would be, where does that power come from?

    I can't bring myself to believe that, as it's based on the assumption that these rituals are thousands of years old, which is utter nonsense - Gerald Gardner made most of them up in the early 20th century.

    I don't know if you know anything about Masonry, but it seems clear that much of this knowledge has been around for a very, very long time. Whether or not someone could "re-write" spells or instructions while retaining the core of the ancient rites is beyond my knowledge of the subject, but I'd suspect that's what's happened in the case you mention.
     
  20. Jenavira

    Jenavira Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 1998
    The next question would be, where does that power come from?


    Simple - the Universe is made of it. Some of it is in the form of matter, some as visible light or other light waves, some of it in other forms science doesn't deal with. (I don't want to start throwing around the term "quantum physics", because I'll be the first to admit I don't really understand it, but it does bring up some interesting parallels.)

    As for rituals - you're right, a lot of different groups use essentially the same ritual structure for magic. Thing is, it's impossible to tell how much they borrowed from each other and where the rituals actually originated. I tend to think they work because their structure is intuitive and a good focus; I don't think they were divinely revealed under any circumstances.

    (If you're interested in Masonic work - or Pagan, for that matter, now that I think of it - you might want to check out Katharine Kurtz' Adept series...fiction, but well-researched, and highly entertaining. I prefer book 3 myself.)

    Jenavira
     
  21. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    I have a Freemason "handbook" which belonged to my grandfather. It is a nefarious organization.
     
  22. Jenavira

    Jenavira Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 1998
    Nefarious? Do explain...


    Jenavira
     
  23. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    That's an entirely different subject which would require a thread of its own to fully explore. If it helps any, the "Thule Society" I referenced earlier was essentially a form of Masonry, although it sounds as if it was a "lesser" form designed to serve purely German interests. The Ku Klux Klan was the same type of organization. The more traditional, "legitimate" form of Freemasonry has its roots in the Middle East, and seems to go back beyond the beginnings of written history. The rites of Masonry were "re-discovered" by Europe during the Crusades, and elements of that knowledge have likely found their way to you in the form of whatever activities it is you engage in.
     
  24. Qui-Rune

    Qui-Rune Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Jenavira,

    Don't be afraid of quantum physics. Understanding it will lead to understanding the Force, or energy that exists in all matter.

    The Force is the basis for all the magic that you perform.

     
  25. AJA

    AJA Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 1998
    You're joking, right?
     
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