Saga Wild theory: Anakin's Force ghost falls back to the dark side after ROTJ

In Attack of the Clones Anakin Skywalker told Padme "Well, I should be! Someday I will be [all-powerful]. I will be the most powerful Jedi ever! I promise you. I will even learn to stop people from dying." (does that include himself?)

In RotS Palpatine plays with Anakin's aforementioned desires (to stop Padme from dying as he has a premonition about that), but Padme dies before he learns these secrets Palpatine claims to have access to. Did Vader, now imprisoned and hindered in a suit with artificial life-support, stop looking for the secret which perhaps might have helped him to restore his body?

I'd say that by the time of ROJ it's now longer an issue and nothing suggests that Palpatine was ever serious about sharing this secret he probably kept for himself. Yet, wasn't there something to consider?

Vader ran his lightsaber through Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH and was apparently confused how his former master had just managed to vanish into thin air, rather literally. Was Palpatine lying when he suggested only he had the key to everlasting life and the Jedi did not?

Did Vader really believe that Luke's strength came from a few lessons by Ben Kenobi on Tatooine (he certainly checked this out) or was he starting to realize that Ben Kenobi had attained everlasting life as a Force ghost who used this ability to train Luke even further?

Is it possible that Anakin's "return of the Jedi" in ROJ was partially part of his plan to attain everlasting life as a Force ghost?

With Palpatine, the movie made that clear, he had no future whatsoever and while the prospect that Yoda and Kenobi might help him attain that status was rather slim, it was still the better option than Palpatine.

By the end of ROJ he manifested as a Force ghost together with the Force ghosts of Yoda and Kenobi but what happened after that is practically unknown.

Fact is that Kenobi's Force ghost was able to help and talk to Luke for at least a bit over three years after his physical death while he told Luke (in ROJ) that Yoda would be "always" with him.

So why didn't Anakin's Force ghost interact with his grandson Kylo Ren. Was Anakin's Force ghost gone or did he just decide to remain silent.

It's obvious that the "good" Force ghost of Anakin did apparently nothing to help or counsel Kylo Ren. How Comes?

Either he could not or he did not want to do that.

The latter case would suggest, that he did not mind Kylo falling towards the dark side. And if he didn't mind, we'd have to wonder whether his "return" in ROJ was truly genuine or rather orchestrated, instead, to achieve his selfish goal to survive as a Force ghost.

 

Could it pe possible that Snoke is some kind of re-incarnated Anakin Force ghost? The head scar in almost the identical position is hard to overlook.

Yes, I'm well aware that Snoke is supposed to be a "new" character, but a previous character re-incarnated could also qualify as such, from a certain point of view, of course.

 

Kylo says to his grandfather: "Show me again the power of the dark side", suggesting that Anakin has at some point done this.
He speaks of Anakin and Snoke as two separate individuals, though. If your wild theory is correct, then Anakin has really fooled his grandson.

 

My little fan theory about Kylo's statement to the helmet is that he's getting Vader visions all right, but it's not coming from FG Anakin. I suspect that Snoke was sending him visions and tricking him into thinking it was Vader.

I think the Force Ghost at the end of ROTJ means that Anakin is good again, and I'd hate for anyone to take that away from Luke (or the amazing arc). I really think we should probably move on from Vader in the ST, but I know they won't.

 

I don't see how Anakin Skywalker could conjure up a plan to get eternal life for himself, seeing as he was technically someone else (Darth Vader) up until the point where he saved his son from dying. In my view, any plan he made up until that point was based on the point of view of a Sith Lord, and they work on a different dynamic. He wanted to be in control and rule the Galaxy, preferably with his own son by his side and Palpatine out of the picture.

I think that if Anakin ever did make contact after ROTJ, he would have contacted Luke or Leia (like in the old EU, right?) to guide and help them. Perhaps Luke even called out to his father while training Ben, because the young man was moving toward the extreme in his views of the Force. We don't know yet, but since Force ghosts were a big deal in the OT, I'm curious as to how they will treat this situation in the future.

 

Sepra AGREED. I've had the same feeling since really thinking about that line Kylo speaks to Vader's helmet. If Kylo has had any visions of Anakin, it was an illusion meant to lure him to the dark side/Snoke's side. Especially if what he saw was Vader, because as we know he returned to being Anakin after his death.

As to what the OP says about Anakin's FG not counseling Ben/Kylo, it could be that because he was trying so hard to immerse himself in the dark side that he would not be receptive to a FG that is true light? Anakin may have tried to reach Ben but was just not able to.

 

Thanks!

One part of the mythology that the ST can expand on I think are the force ghosts. But as soon as I saw that concept art of Anakin, I've been thinking that there's no way that works logically as anything other than manipulation.

But it could be that Anakin can't talk to Kylo for some reason too. Maybe they can only communicate with light users? That could be fleshed out well, I think.

 

Well, Anakin was supposed to appear in TFA, but this was cut. While the films can go their own way, so far, they've established that a Sith can hear a Jedi Force ghost.

 

I agree, I think its manipulation....and I also think the real Anakin has been trying to communicate with Ben and hasn't been able to. I'm VERY curious about the force ghosts in the ST, we have Obi-wan saying that line to Rey - is he communicating with Luke too?

 

How have they established that?

 

I figure it's not so much that Ben/Kylo can't hear Ani, as much as he simply doesn't want to. He thinks of Darth Vader as the real person, not Ani. To him, Ani's a weak fool who was destroyed by the stronger Sith Lord.

 

Anakin cannot really go to the dark side again, because if he does, he loses cohesion. He can only exist as a ghost because he has no attachments. No sense of self. No anger, fear, or hate. His turn back at the end was genuine. Not the result of a long term plan. Besides, he wanted to stop others from dying. Not himself.

Early in one of the Marvel comics, I think, Obi-wan speaks to Vader and Vader can hear him.

 

Are you sure you're not thinking of the Brian Wood ones, which were very late Legendsverse?

 

Remember at one point Anakin and Darth Vader were spoken of as two separate individuals. Not quite the same scenarios, but I can see the parallel in keeping with this theory.

 

I don't think it was some kind of plan. His death scene seemed genuine, and the reveal of the good in him was a nice acknowledgement of Padme's belief in RoTS. However, I do wonder if there's some will-of-the-force grand plan here. When Kylo Ren talks about finishing what Anakin started, maybe he's talking about balancing the force. To do what needs to be done, he needs to let in the dark side. Rey is set to be on the other side of the cosmic scale. Anakin's force ghost is pulling the strings, but he's not doing it for selfish reasons.

 

Please no, don't ruin Episode VI ending any more then they absolutely must. Let Anakin be redeemed peacefully.

 

I dunno. I wasn't reading it. I just recall someone mentioning it, I think it was you.

 

After a quick search - it's done seriously in Volume IV: A Shattered Hope - of the Brian Wood series - it was also spoofed in The Long Bad Day in Star Wars Tales Volume 4 - a very short strip.

 

also if you look at the angles of the scars below Snoke's lips, it correlates with the medal in Vader's mask. maybe those arent scars beneath his lips though. hard to tell

 

We have yet to see Snoke face-to-face; maybe the scars aren't really there and he just added them to his hologram to give his appearance a Vader-vibe that would appeal to Kylo.

 

Well, remember that Snoke is based off an unused design for Palpatine in ROTJ. So I'm certain it isn't Anakin.

 

AniLukeRey wrote

I agree, I think its manipulation....and I also think the real Anakin has been trying to communicate with Ben and hasn't been able to. I'm VERY curious about the force ghosts in the ST, we have Obi-wan saying that line to Rey - is he communicating with Luke too?

In ROJ Kenobi told Luke that "Yoda will always be with you", thus he seemed to exclude himself from any further Force ghost communication with Luke.

 

I don't think he has "fallen" to the darkside as much as become an embodiment of both the light and the dark side of the force, a sort of arbiter or avatar that defies the narrow-minded good/evil-dichotomy that the Jedi believe in. Like it or not, he is the Chosen One and as such an unique being. He might not be your run of the mill ghost. Maybe he recognizes the worth that both sides of the force have and can exist in both.

Why is he "helping" Kylo? One thing about Anakin and Vader, all his life he was interested in forging peace and stability in the galaxy and unfortunately thought that one ruler would be the best option to achieve this. Watchting the New Republic squabble and crumble will not have changed his views regarding democracy. Maybe he views Kylo as an instrument to bring about order while secretly opposing Snoke (I don't think SKB would have brought much peace to the galaxy). I don't think that killing Han came from Vader, that was Snoke's idea as shown on screen. So what I expect Anakin/Vader to do next is to tell Kylo that he must slay Snoke.

 

That's not what he was saying. He's saying that Yoda will always live on in Luke and not just because he's a ghost. It's the same way you hear that someone else will always be with you when they die. They will always live on in your heart so long as you don't forget them.

That undermines the entire point of ROTJ and his redemption. Anakin realizes that he was wrong. That the dark side is wrong. That what Luke does is the right thing to have done in the first place, but couldn't bring himself to see it. The balance he found within himself was acknowledging who he is, who he was and who he can be again.

 

You don't get it. The dark side isn't supposed to be "the evil" anymore, at least not in the sequels. Abrams called it a fundamental force of the universe that needs to exist for there to be balance. Even Luke is implied to have integrated the dark side into his being after discovering this greater truth (the art of the force awakens).