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Clone Wars Will Darth Maul maintain control of Mandalore?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Chainmail_Jedi, Mar 10, 2013.

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  1. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    Don't know if this violates spoilers or whatever since it's an older episode, if it does please let me know.

    Will Darth Maul retain control of Mandalore and be a puppet of Sidious? It would seem to make sense, after all, why would Sidious just want to lose control of a planet which influences a coalition of 2,000 systems? Not to mention a significant portion of the Underworld, including Hutt space?

    IDK, it just seems like it would be in Sidious's best interest to treat Mandalore like a satellite state, rather than just removing him from power and letting the highly independent rebels take over the planet, who obviously wouldn't have Sidious's interests at heart.
    Last edited by Chainmail_Jedi, Mar 10, 2013
  2. Vialco Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    No

    Sidous would never allow Maul to retain power.

    "You have become a rival!"

    Sidious went to Mandalore to remove Maul as a rival to his ambitions. He killed Maul's apprentice, beat him down in his own palace and had him at his mercy. Sidious will never allow Maul to have his own power base. The next time we see Maul, he'll be serving Sidious as an assassin.

    I repeat, Maul has nothing to do with Mandalore anymore. Sidious went there in person to ensure that Maul would never pose a threat to him again.
  3. Seerow Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    I think Maul will stay in control of Mandalore. I think Sids basically beat him up and killed his sidekick to assume control of him. He's going to keep Maul in the same pace so he can quietly pull the strings on Mandalore. Maul has already worked himself into the inside and Almec is like is puppet. Sids will use that to his advantage of that instead of changing things up again. Mandalore is primed for an eventual Republic invasion now that a civil war is going on there. Don't think that means Maul can't leave Almec and charge and go off to do something... like break Barriss out of prison. =b
    Last edited by Seerow, Mar 10, 2013
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  4. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    IF Mandalore is a nuetral planet, how can the Republic invade even if there is a civil war? Wouldn't it be considered an "internal" affair?
  5. Asharak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2003
    star 4
    I hope so, I want to see the republic invade Mandalore figthing Maul and his Shadow Collective, the only reason they have to invade is if Maul is there.
  6. Seerow Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Because Obi-wan went there without blessings of the Council and the Senate and the result of that was a total mess. Then Bo-Katan has Obi-wan promise to bring back help. Might the Republic be already involved? Then the Separatists get their chance to come in like the heroes after that blows up and it turns into a bigger mess. Everyone ends up hating the Jedi more.
  7. 07jonesj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    I don't think Maul will retain control. Sidious isn't going to risk Maul turning on him and revealing his plans to the Jedi.
  8. Seerow Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Maul is under his thumb.
  9. 07jonesj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    You mean like how Vader was under his thumb? ;)
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 10, 2013
  10. Seerow Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Sids just beat Maul into the ground and the second her showed up that dude was on his knees about begging for his life.
  11. 07jonesj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Still, why would he risk Maul blabbing? Surely the risk outweighs the potential reward?
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 10, 2013
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  12. Seerow Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    Wouldn't Maul still be a liability if he is out there as an assassin. He's only not gonna blab if he is dead. I think Maul is most useful where he is now. I think Maul is best off on Mandalore. How else will Sids have the chance to pull some strings on Mandalore? How is it really going to go over if he just goes up to Almec and tries to buy him or something? That's a serious liability in itself.
  13. Vialco Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Sidious has no interest in one planet. He intends to rule the Galaxy. What is one planet in billions to the future Emperor of the Galaxy.

    TCW emphasizes this a lot; Sidious already has a plan, it's all pre-arranged.

    "Everything is going as planned."

    It's when things don't go as planned that Sidious needs to step in. Maul returning was not part of Sidious's plan so he was removed.

    Now things go back to normal except Sidious has a powerful and humbled former apprentice that he can use for minor errands that Dooku cannot be trusted with.

    But Maul is no longer a Sith Lord in the eyes of the reigning Dark Lord.

    "There can only be two. And you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced!"

    That line makes it clear as to how Sidious feels about Maul's status.
  14. El Bastarde Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Because Obi-wan went there without blessings of the Council and the Senate and the result of that was a total mess.

    Yes, but there's no evidence of him there. You will note that during that entire episode, Obi Wan doesn't use his lightsaber. There's really no obvious evidence he was involved as far as the public knows. The Jedi will be fine.

    In fact, now that there's confirmation that Maul is there (and still in power as far as Obi Wan knows) the Jedi can intervene since he's a confirmed member of the Sith who is terrorizing another planet. I'm pretty sure that the Jedi don't turn their backs on this, especially since he murdered Satine. The Jedi CAN go after him.

    I do agree he'll rule as a Sidious puppet but it's debatable what role Sid really has for me...perhaps he's supposed to be a martyr in some way.
  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    He'll probably be left in control. Not saying that the should, but Filoni made it sound like Maul going to Mandalore was more a case of Sith chest-pounding to put Maul in his place rather than an attempt to kill him. Sidious apparently sees value in having Maul alive, albeit not allowed to be uncontrolled.

    I also think that the bit with Bo-Katan urging Obi-Wan to bring a Republic invasion force to deal with Maul is just a little awkward if Obi-Wan does so only to find out that Maul inexplicably just left.
  16. Mia Mesharad Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Well to start, Maul can't maintain control of a planet he never truly had control of in the first place. He only managed to usurp Satine, and used Almec as a puppet Prime Minister over the New Mandalorians, meaning he got control of desert and a few political connections.

    Secondly, if we're looking at this logically, there is no way that Sidious would allow Maul to rule anything. The entire confrontation with Maul came about due to Maul positioning himself as a rival for Sith Master, and establishing his own powerbase in opposition to Sidious' own. When challenged, he attempted to fight Sidious to the death. Regardless of how well he came out on top, Sidious can't be so naive as to allow Maul such liberty and a continued seat of power. Considering Maul won't be going the way of Darth Venemis according to Sam Witwer's interview statements, then the only logical outcome for the guy is a Ventress-style Sith assassin, a precursor to the Emperor's Hands, giving him a narrative range to do an assortment of different things. The issue of a Republic invasion is also potentially moot, considering Palpatine has publicly noted that he doesn't see Maul as a threat worthy of Republic concern in the time of war, and Mandalore's neutrality necessitating the designation of any power struggle as an internal affair outside Republic jurisdiction.

    Thirdly, Mandalore's story during this era is already told, and Maul's got no part in it. The entire situation on Mandalore has worked itself back to the point of realigning with the prior events established before the series, and there doesn't need to be any fresh disruption. If they need to show the Death Watch's defeat and Republic vs Mando action, use the Mandalorian Protectors. Palpatine doesn't deal with Mandalore until after he's become Emperor.

    @TaradosGon
    I don't know how I've missed it before, but I just noticed your signature. Love it!
  17. QuangoFett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Sidious keeping Maul as puppet ruler of Mandalore and the Shadow Collective would be similar to keeping Tyrannus as puppet ruler of the CIS. That arrangement has been shown to have its risks for Sidious. Tyrannus regularly engages in schemes of his own, taking his own apprentices and pursuing his own agenda. The implication behind Sidious' absolute crushing of Maul is that he is bringing the Zabrak permanently to heel. There can only be two and Maul can never be the second any time soon. One potentially rebellious minion is bad enough already.

    Far more likely, if he now intends to manipulate Mandalore to suit his own interests, is Sidious making Almec his direct puppet without Maul staying as the middle man. Perhaps Maul is still on Mandalore. Perhaps not. Either way, news of his appearance and the effects of his actions are likely to prompt a response from the Jedi Council and Republic. That's quite strongly hinted at. Sidious has no real reason to oppose this.
  18. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    The Sith, particularly in the TOR period, have a very feudal-like lord/vassal relationship. The Sith of the Bane era only number in two, though I see the same mechanic in place to some extent - principally with the relationship between Dooku and Sidious, where Dooku is allowed to have a very sizable power base of his own.

    The Sith even swear an oath of fealty to some extent - in Anakin kneeling before Sidious and pledging his allegiance to the Sith and receiving a new name/title similar to how Knights had been granted the title of "Sir" and being given land upon swearing loyalty to a lord (Count, King, Duke, etc.)

    Of course, there is a danger in allowing a vassal to build up a personal power base, that's even seen historically, in which a powerful vassal might try to usurp their lord. This was especially common in the sengoku-jidai period of Japan - and on a tangent, I have read online that "jidai" may have been the inspiration for the name "Jedi," though I've not seen confirmation of that from an irrefutable source.

    But essentially, regional lords broke away from the influence of the weakening Shogunate and fought amongst themselves. And some of these lords were even unfortunate enough to be overthrown by their own rebelling vassals. But it was not uncommon for a defeated lord to be spared and allowed to keep their land if they pledged fealty to their opponent. Sometimes the loser would be forced to commit suicide or be executed, but it was really quite common for a lord to simply demonstrate their superiority and then demand an oath of fealty.

    The same kind of thing happened when the practice of vassalage was widespread in Europe, though I'm less knowledgeable of specific examples. Though I know that in the Holy Roman Empire specifically, the Emperor pretty much constantly had to travel around the country to keep the local lords in line.

    Benefits to vassalage are:

    A. the vassal stays in control of his land, maintains authority there, and you don't need to disrupt the local loyalties. Maul has Almec under his thumb, and Sidious has Maul under his thumb. Suppressing Maul but allowing him to maintain control over Almec allows for pretty much uninterrupted rule, as opposed to killing Maul and then having to expend energy to appoint a new overlord over Almec and disrupting Mandalorian politics yet again, after the deaths of Satine and Vizsla. This allows for rapid expansion, rather than re-working the political system.

    B. No resources have to be expended by the lord to maintain the vassal. The vassal remains self-sufficient. Sure the lord assumes the responsibility of defending the vassal, but these are Sith. Sidious would let Maul die once his usefulness was at an end.

    The downside is that anyone loyal to Maul is not necessarily loyal to Sidious. Therefore if Maul becomes strong enough to rebel, he has the resources to do so. A counter example would be something like Vader and Tarkin. Both are loyal to Palpatine. If Vader wanted to rebel and usurp Palpatine, Tarkin would be more liable to see it as an act of treason and turn on Vader. But in the case of Maul, those loyal to him probably don't care who his master is and have no personal loyalty to him.

    We see that with Dooku as well. If Dooku wanted to bring the full power of the CIS against Palpatine in an effort to kill his master, who would object? Why would Gunray, Grievous, etc. care? They would all collectively climb the power ladder together if their lord (Dooku) usurped Sidious.


    So basically... With Maul I could see him potentially being put in his place but being allowed to stay and manipulate Mandalore, though now under the lordship of Sidious. But it bugs me that Dooku has more indepedence and power than Maul or Vader have ever had and he remains ever the faithful servant (minus the failed incident with Savage).
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Mar 10, 2013
  19. Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
  20. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

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    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    I think the reason Sidious trusts Tyranus with with all this power is because he feels Dooku is less likely to betray him, since the latter was not raised as a Sith, but spent his first 7 decades of life as a Jedi. Thus it is likely that Dooku's Sith training hasn't completely expunged all of his lifelong Jedi indoctrination, so Sidious has more reason to believe in Dooku's loyalty. In fact, I don't think Tyranus ever truly considered turning on his master until Sidious forced him to betray Ventress and he decided to take on Savage as an apprentice. The fact that Dooku seemed astonished at Palpatine ordering Anakin to kill him at the beginning of RotS lends credence to the idea that Dooku hasn't fully engaged in the Sith ideals of betrayal of the master by the apprentice.
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  21. Narutakikun Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
  22. MistrX Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 4
    I do wonder if Sidious will still manipulate Almec somehow. Could he force Maul to order Almec to take orders from another source? It's an interesting idea, though one we may never see answered either way. It actually wouldn't surprise me if Bo-Katan's factions ends up gaining control of Mandalore and that leads to the fall of the New Mandalorians that the Atlas refers to. Unless there's something further in Warfare that explains is more.
  23. Mia Mesharad Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Death Watch broke the New Mandalorians, who they are as a faction. They destroyed Satine and her administration, and now, under Almec and in accordance with the late Vizsla and the people's own apparent wishes, "From this point on, Mandalore will be strong, and we will be known as the warriors we were always meant to be!" That coincides with the Atlas' mentions of Mandalorian revanchists that put an end to the New Mandalorians, and is further corroborated by The Last Jedi, which states that the implementation of a puppet Prime Minister returned order while the Death Watch remains a significant presence, which lends itself to the Mandalore-based plotline of Imperial Commando: 501st. But also according to the Atlas, the Mandalorian Protectors are still to emerge under Spar, though there's a place for Bo-Katan and her people due to The History of the Mandalorians' noting former Death Watch members among the Protectors' ranks.
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  24. Chainmail_Jedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2013
    star 2
    care to state some logic behind that conclusion?
    I'm just curious.
  25. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Maul will be kept away somewhere, I'd bet. Maybe exiled or carbon frozen?
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