CT Will Disney Re-Release Theatrical Cut Of The Original Trilogy?

There will always be a minority who will never be satisfied with what's released, but that will be a very, very, very small minority. A far larger group of people just want a version of the films which is closely reminiscent of the films as they were first released (ie not exhibiting visual effects very obviously not characteristic of that era), up to a standard of presentation which is, well, not absolute rubbish!

 

Actually I believe your point in mentioning the "methods" was to insist that Disney/LFL wouldn't want to tell people that they used prints instead of better sources; since you're not saying that anymore, I guess you agree with me that they probably wouldn't care as long as the end result is good. But now you're saying that the 1% care about the methods? Well that's not true either. The people who want the theatrical versions simply want the theatrical versions, and it doesn't matter what sources were used to get to that point.

Additionally, it seems that you're very fixated on how the 1% will never be satisfied no matter what. Well, it's not quite as simple as that. I guess I'm in the "1%" who wants an actual OOT. Now, if we end up getting a release that has very slight modifications that you could only notice if you paused it & zoomed in frame by frame, then I seriously wouldn't be complaining. It wouldn't be 100% of what I wanted, but it would still be 99% of the way there. And that's a start. But your arguments seem to suggest that the 1% behave like a coin flip: either they're completely satisfied or they're getting their pitchforks ready. But that's simply not true. We're reasonable people. If Disney/LFL make an obvious effort to deliver what we want, we'd definitely be satisfied for the most part. We understand that we can't always get everything that we want. So, on a spectrum from 0 to 100, where 0 is the 2011 Bluray and 100 is the pure OOT, most of us would be happy if we get something between 90 and 100 (hell, maybe even 80 to 100). Here's a picture to illustrate what I'm talking about:

So, in conclusion, the so-called 1% don't all have a binary "angry" or "happy" setting; we're generally reasonable people. As long as we get something closer to the top of the graph, we'd be satisfied. Of course, the ideal scenario would be the pure 100% OOT. But if we end up getting 90%, then we end up getting 90%. I'm sure fan edits can take it from there.

As I've already mentioned, I'm not talking about now; I'm talking about the future. The future constantly moves towards better and better technology. People may not care about 4K now. But if it ends up becoming standard for home video, then there will definitely be a demand for Star Wars to reach that format. Also your argument about where people sit in the theater doesn't hold much water; I sat in the back of the theater during ROTS, yet I still appreciate being able to watch a 1080p version of it at home.

The black levels have been turned down and it's apparent no matter what kind of screen you're watching it on. Also, since you say that "the blacks are not anywhere near as 'crushed'", that still implies that you agree that they're a little crushed. So we're in agreement that the black crush is present. Of course, the degree to which that fact bothers you is subjective.

 

I'm okay with what you describe as Special Edition territory. If they don't use Verta's restoration, I can't imagine Lucasfilm leaving Vader's lightsaber white as the doors close on the Death Star, leaving matte lines in or not fixing the wampa arm. I believe that 99% of fans would be perfectly fine with that kind of a release.

 

I mean, it's dicey territory. The lightsaber fixes are somewhat understandable since they technically could have been done at that time. Did they really have the means of fixing the matte lines though? I dunno. It gets tricky when deciding what to leave in and what to update, and there's no fixed criteria. Personally, I'd prefer a 100% pure version. At least with that, you have the raw base and can work up from there to create whatever custom version you want. But if, for some odd reason, you want to see Obi-Wan's saber glitch in 4k, there's no way to unearth that beneath the corrected footage. Whereas with the purely original base, you can always rotoscope a proper lightsaber blade over the glitchy one if you wish. You wouldn't immediately get your preferred version, but there would at least be enough footage that your custom version could be created. But once shots are altered, there's no way to get them back to looking like their old selves.

As for which route Lucasfilm decides to go, who knows? Contrary to what Qui-Riv-Brid suggests, enhancing shots for restorations is not the industry standard. Sure, some companies go down this route, but it's usually because some executive suggests it & a director goes along with it. It's by no means a "standard" in the same way that 24-frames-per-second is a standard for movies. They are under no peer pressure to fix any shots, especially for something they're calling the original unaltered theatrical version. Its flaws & imperfections (aka: battle scars) may very well be a draw for some portion of the audience. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they decide to do.

 

The thing I am sure about the 1% is that they probably won't be in 100% agreement about the exactness argument.

Now if that 1% get 90%+ of what they want they I think they will be quite happy and then use the new version to create other fan versions that then suit their needs.

As I have said I would like an "archival" version which is probably best done with the separation masters which would recreate the O-Neg exactly then they would need to color time that to match and I'm not finicky on that front.

I would also like a restored version as well if they are going to do this project at some point.

Now outside of ANH I would much bother with them as I have said before because I prefer to see the real Emperor in TESB and the real Anakin spirit in ROTJ.

Now if they want to do a branching version where one can watch the theatrical cuts with the real characters in there then that's great too.

Sure that is my point of why image resolution is only one part of the presentation.The HD of ROTS is far better than AOTC. That doesn't mean their is anything wrong with AOTC resolution.

Having the OT and ANH in particular in 4K would likely show all the flaws it has unless normal restoration was done.

Now would it bother me?

No.

Would it bother a general audience? I don't know.

They aren't used to seeing VFX "problems" like that.

Of course they are. That is objectively true. It is darker. Now if it bothers someone that is up to them. The problem is that for those who try to pass it off as some objective barrier to their enjoyment when that is purely subjective on their part.

The original looks like what movies did at that time because that is all they could do then. Modern digital movies look totally different for many reasons this being one of them.

As I have said over and again if anyone wants to change the settings on their TV it's really not a problem. I have redone the color timing for the BD's myself to look very pre-digital. It's not really a problem to do so. I watch the movies in B&W or even made them look 30-50's technicolor if I wish.

Actually I kind of like pumping the color of the PT up to that level. It gives it a more GWTW classic look which plays well with all the color.

 

I disagree with the last statements. IMO the bluray color timing for particulary A New Hope is subpar, even by modern digital standards. The enormous amount of color artifacts are a testament to that issue. The black crush is an issue, as much detail in the dark areas has been irretrievably lost.

This is what really bothers me. There's an artistic side, and a technical side to color timing. The bluray color timing is technically a botch job. Some try to hide this fact by claiming it's all an artistic choice, and therefore there's no bad color timing, but anyone with experience in the color grading field will tell you this argument doesn't fly. The person doing the color grading, trying to bring an artist vision to life, can do a bad job, because of time constraints or any number of reasons. The fact that an artist/company signs off on it, doesn't suddenly make it good or even acceptable. There are many examples of poor quality releases in the history of home video. Many of the earlier home video releases of Star Wars have had some technical issues, including issues with the colors. The release of the 1997 SE had a noticeable blue/pink tint, that was not in the theatrical release. So, while we may wish that artists/companies release the best version possible, history proves otherwise.

 

The 'real Emperor' and the 'real Anakin spirit' don't exist. What we do have is the 'original' and the 'replacement'. I'll choose the 'theatrical history' version over the 'mind canon' version any day of the week. Star Wars (or any fiction, for that matter) is nothing if you strip it of its context.

The 'fan' mindset really annoys me, sometimes.

 

Amen!

 

To me, "real Anakin" and "real Emperor" are such meaningless designations. Who gets to decide what's real and not real anyway? I mean, if I watch the original Anakin at the end of Jedi, what I'm watching is just as "real" as the revisionist Anakin. Maybe it doesn't jive with the artist's current thoughts on the series, but that's okay. I much preferred the earlier one anyway. It's like getting on a train to get from point A (original Star Wars) to point B (ROTJ). But once you get to point B, you realize that the train is headed to point C (Special Editions); to me, it's perfectly acceptable to depart at point B and not follow the train (Lucas) to a destination you don't want to go.

As old Palps would likely say if he could comment on this, "If one is to understand the great Star Wars, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the officially-designated cannon. If you wish to become a complete and wise fan, you must embrace a larger view of the series."

 

That rather makes my point.

The real Emperor/Palpatine/Sidious from all the other episodes that he appeared in not some one-off that doesn't. Same for Anakin (though obviously he was a different age in TPM) not some one-off that in no way shape or form connects with any of the other episodes or a somewhat similar Emperor that is still a different face and voice and not the actual Sidious.

The larger view is the complete saga. The narrow view is only of the single movies that don't connect to the others. TESB's Emperor is clearly not ROTJ's. ROTJ's spirit Anakin works for ROTJ alone not in conjunction with I,II or III.

This again is exactly what I am talking about. The theatrical history version IS IM's Emperor and HC's Anakin spirit. Audiences when watching the movies and going along look at it from the above historical perspective and say. "Well that isn't Darth Sidious and that is not Anakin." At the least Anakin would look like an older version of HC not someone even decades older.

Now we have had all this somewhat off-topic discussions man times before so I don't see the point of them as now as we have been talking about the actual on topic discussions of the gradations of what comprises the ideal version of the "OOT" which as I have said many times over I think should be out but that outside of ANH I would have little interest in watching without the actual saga versions of Anakin's spirit and Darth Sidious in them.

Now as I have also said if they give options to watch the "original" version but with the actual saga versions of said characters then I would certainly have more interest in not simply having them for completions sake but actually watch them as well.

Personally I'd like to have all kinds of versions from an archival version to a restored version, the current one and I would also like some revisions of the currrent versions (which was the rumor about the digital releases at one point).

TBH though by standards even then ANH is in many way an "inferior" film on many levels. It simply is in comparison to TESB and ROTJ. As Lucas said it was the most expensive low budget movie ever.

I have seen many opinions on these subjects and other who no doubt are far less invested than any of us are don't see this issues. So obviously this is again something dominated by subjective viewing.

There is the objective that things are different but what that means is interpreted subjectively.

That still comes down to that anyone can disagree with the changes. Therefore subjective.

Objectively yes it's different but once again saying it's about bringing an artistic vision to life. Lucas oversaw it and signed off therefore it's his artistic statement. Others disagree with it. Great but to say he is objectively wrong is clearly objectively wrong.

You don't have to like what he did but there is no way possible to say anything other than that. There are lots of thing in the OT that from the start were objectively incorrect to do on a technical level but not an artistic one.

 

Your point goes back to what I've been saying all along. The only thing that keeps the PT on life support are the hamfisted PT insertions into the OT. Without them, fans will ignore the PT and start with the culturally significant OOT. That's why there's always some objection or backhanded comment towards any positive discussion of an OOT release by PT fans.

 

Except this is nonsense.
Shaw's ghost works fine with the PT because Shaw is IN the movie, playing old Anakin.
Since ANH and ESB established that Force ghosts look the age when they die, Shaw works fine.
Hayden does not, it violates the established rules without explanation.

If you argue that Shaw is too old then he should be gone from both scenes.

If you argue that Shaw works as old Anakin in the flesh due to premature aging due to the suit/dark side use. That works for the ghost too. The direct wounds are gone but not the side effects of the suit.

If you argue that Anakin never quite looked like Shaw's ghost, then that applies to Hayden's ghost too. He has the RotS hair but by then he should be missing an arm.
AotC Anakin has two arms but not that hair cut.

So the current version is actually worse than the original.
You now have "Too old Shaw" in one scene, and then "Too young Hayden" in another.
The original was at least consistent with itself and the rest of the OT.
The new one throws logic and what not out of the window.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Actually the narrow view is the one that completely dismisses the original version as not "real" in favor of the artist's current vision. On the other hand, simply preferring one is not narrow-minded at all.

Perhaps they'd take issue with the Emperor's appearance in TESB. But I don't think they'd care that Anakin is an older ghost since he was obviously an older guy in ROTJ (as we see when the mask is taken off). I do realize that this particular point has been hashed out over and over again. But the problem arises when you assume that all audiences will think the way you do and that all audiences will watch the movies in the I-VI order (hint: not everyone will).

You say you don't want to get into an off-topic discussion about the validity of various versions of characters, yet you use terms like "actual Emperor" and "real Anakin". Well, the thing is, we don't all agree with your personal designations of what's real and what's not. So if people disagree, they're going to argue against it.

Not everything is an artistic statement though. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Lucas was busy working on ROTS, so he just quickly signed off on something that he thought looked acceptable. And if that were the case, can we really look at the black crush and say it's a deliberate artistic decision? Did Lucas really want detail to be lost, or did he just not care/notice that it happened? Did he want some of the lightsabers to lose their white cores or did he just think "Meh, whatever, no big deal; it's not worth the time & money to fix things like that"? Because I'd say the difference is significant.

 

A larger view of the series would include the OOT. 97 OT SE's, 04 DVD's, 06 DVDs, 2011 OT Blu-Ray, theatrical PT, 2011 PT, and TFA etc. IMO

 

Pablo Hidalgo tweeted earlier in response to someone asking about the OOT that he "hadn't heard about anything like this being in anyone's plans."

I'm going to do the safe thing and give up hope on this happening any time on the foreseeable future. If it happens, I'll welcome it and it'll be a nice surprise, but I have bigger things to worry about than setting myself up for disappointment.

 

I think that's a wise approach Pym. Regrettable as it is, I think Disney have a few too many other balls in the air at the moment to be devoting time to the OOT project. One day maybe. Hopefully.

 

Sorry, but IMO this is nonsense. Color artifacts can be objectively identified. Like I said, it's ridiculous to defend technical failings with it being an artistic choice. An analogy for your argument is, a baker defending a burned piece of bread with artistic choice. The concept might be artistically appealing, but poor execution remains poor execution. The burns are there like the the color artifacts for anyone to see. Your argument that many people don't mind these issues is also not particulary relevant. Most people also can't tell the difference between a real masterpiece and a forgery. Does this mean there are no forgeries? GL has signed off on a number of home video releases with issues in the past (poor color balance, and shrinking aspect ratios of laserdiscs come to mind), so that in of itself means nothing. Also we were discussing failings of digital color grading, that are unacceptable by modern standards, not technical failings that were acceptable by 1977 standards.

 

Sorry but that really goes nowhere.

Talking about 3 of the most successful movies in film history like that and asserting that they are on "life support" despite every single objective measure since their release saying otherwise really does not work.

I am a fan of all of the movies since I saw the first in 1977 so that is what I can speak to.

Except that it doesn't at all as Obi-Wan and Yoda's bodies physically disappear while Anakin's doesn't.

It doesn't work fine at all as he is an impossibly old Anakin. Does he look like even a mid-40's Anakin would?

Not in the least.

The spinning going on in the above is enough isn't it?

The simply direct answer is from above. There is Anakin's physical form then his spirit form.

We know with certainty from the movies that Qui-Gon taught Yoda then Obi-Wan how to join the Force. Obviously Anakin was not taught this so from a pure movie stand point something happened that we don't actually know from the movies. So applying that to this situation doesn't directly work.

So even taking that position again why should anyone now have to put up with work that is "unacceptable by modern standards" that is rife in the OT? That is the argument for full restoration in the first place.

We can objectively point out all the failings of the OT both now and then. They would have loved to fix it then but couldn't but they knew they could get away with it then.

You seem though to be conflating the one with the other on a 1:1 basis.

So are you saying that you'd be totally fine with the SE BD color timings as long as the technical issues were addressed?

Are you saying that it's impossible to use those color timings at all because those artistic choices inherently cause objective technical issues?

 

All I will say is that two wrongs don't make a right. The original color timing was perfectly fine. They recreated it for the 1997 SE, but subsequently did a terrible job (objectively from a technical standpoint) regrading it for the 2004 DVD. I can accept errors present in the original presentation, because they were part of the original presentation. I can't accept the introduction of new errors, that were not there in the first place.

 

So again if the original color timing was the SE and the SE was the opposite then you would feel the exact same way.

If Luke screamed then didn't, if Vader said "NOOOO!" then didn't then the original would be wanted regardless of anything else.

Again subjective.

Errors in the originals were not part of the original presentation in any directly intended artistic way. They were simply errors that they couldn't overcome at the time technically due to issues of time and resources or in some cases were simply impossible to do then. If they could have got it all right then they would have.

http://www.cineplex.com/News/George-Lucas-QA-Talking-Star-Wars-art-and-technology


For Lucas it’s not about new technology for “coolness” sake, but to solve artistic conundrums.
“I never invented any technology. What I did is I ended up with a problem, a story idea. How do I get this puppet and I wanted him to move around? You can’t, cut it from the script, forget it. So I went around trying to invent the technology to do that. Not, gee, I want to invent some new technology, and then I’ll figure out what I’m going to do with it. Everything I’ve done is to make the process easier and to do more in your imagination and actually accomplish things. Every effect at ILM was invented for a particular shot, or a particular movie.”
For some filmmakers it’s then just a matter of messing around with a new tool set for its own sake. Lucas disagrees with this sentiment - “Whether it’s colour, or sound, or 3D, or digital technology, a lot of people like to play, but that’s not the point. The point is that it allows you to do things you can’t do otherwise. That’s the purpose of it.”

So you seem to be saying that having color timing not the "original" is impossible technically and wrong artistically (or can't possibly be done for the former and shouldn't be for the latter.)

 

No, I'm not saying that at all. Most of the time the color grading of home video releases differs somewhat from the theatrical one. It's also possible to do a completely new grading, that is technically flawless. While I'm not in favour of revisionism in color grading, this is not the point I'm making. The bluray color timing is technically flawed. This has nothing to do with the original color timing or my preference for preserving the original presentation for posterity. I think the SE also deserves a technically good color timing, which can naturally be different from the original one.

 

I don't think Pablo would have anything to do with an OOT release. His job is the canon, not video and audio mastering.

 

I don't necessarily see why that would matter? He's a high-ranking Lucasfilm employee. He didn't say, "I'm not personally involved with such a project," he said he hasn't "heard about anything like this being in anyone's plans." That's something I feel he'd at least have heard about, even if he's not receiving weekly updates on the status of the project.

 

They're going to do something for the 40th anniversary. They're not going to let an auspicious occasion like that slip by without commemorating it in some special way. Now, that doesn't mean that they're going to release the theatrical versions of the trilogy. But they've been working on something. There's the Reliance Media show reel. I've read that a print of the first film was requested from the Library of Congress. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I have the 2006 bonus DVDs, and I have the Despecialized Editions. The Silver Screen Edition is up on Youtube and has been since May. Fans are picking up the slack.

 

Yep. If Disney won't do it, the internet will. Eventually they'll have to take notice and do something. The OOT means too much to the fans to let it die and I love it.