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Discussion Will Luke use the "Old Jedi Certain Point of View Guilt Trip?"

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by JediKnightOB1, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. JediKnightOB1

    JediKnightOB1 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2003
    What has always bothered me about the OT was how Obi-Wan and Yoda use the "certain point of view" to justify getting Luke to do the Jedi bidding. Do you think that Luke will get his students to get motivated by using the "Old Jedi 'Certain Point of View' Guilt Trip?"
     
  2. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    I hope not. Luke should be above that and his students should respect him enough to do what he says and trusts he knows what he's talking about.
     
  3. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2012
    One of the things we witness about Luke in the OT is that he goes against the Jedi grain very much like Qui-Gon did in the PT. I think the "certain point of view" thing was an example of showing that the "old" Jedi way was out of touch, and that Qui-Gon's "Be Mindful" approach was more in line with what a true Jedi was. In hindsight, we learn that Qui-Gon was right, and so was Luke.

    That being said, I would like to hear him say it in a way that undermines it and makes it a bad thing.
     
  4. Buddha Fett

    Buddha Fett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 1999
    Not initially, but if the writers need to get out of a corner they've backed themselves into...then yes.
     
  5. Corvax855

    Corvax855 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2011
    I don't see why he would have to. Luke and the rebels won, so there's not a lot of harsh truths that he'd need to tap dance around.
     
  6. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2001
    I suppose one terrible truth could be that someone's grandfather was Darth Vader. That might be like saying your grandfather was Adolph Hitler. Of course one kids terrible truth could be anothers inspiration.

    Maybe R2 will reveal to 3PO the terrible truth about his maker.
     
  7. TheManFromMortis

    TheManFromMortis Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 19, 2012
    _ _ _ _

    Yes, that would be a good way to illustrate that Luke has learned the lessons that Yoda, Obi-Wan et al never did and is forging a new kind of Jedi Order ... if ... he's forging one at all. Consider also that, if Luke hadn't ''raced to face Vader'' in ESB, he might not have discovered that Vader was his father. Think of the repercussions that could have had on the entire saga. Ultimately, I think Qui-Gon was right, although you could argue that if Anakin had never been trained, would Sidious have been able to crush the Jedi in RoTS? Was Anakin the indispensible wrecking ball that Sidious had to have in order to realise his plans? Many questions to answer, there still are.
     
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  8. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 12, 2013
    I doubt it.

    Luke's situation in the OT was unique. I don't expect the ST bad guy to be anyone's father.
     
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  9. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I hope Luke takes the ST Jedi Order in a new exciting direction.
     
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  10. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd The Man / Also Known as Bazinga'd star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I doubt it as well. Unlike Obi Wan and Yoda who were cynical beyond belief due to the events of the PT, Luke is too much of a school boy, almost to a fault. If anything, I think Luke will be too honest.
     
  11. JediKnightOB1

    JediKnightOB1 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 26, 2003
    That could be his main weakness, which would be why he alone could be responsible for the rise of a Dark Jedi. [face_skull]
     
  12. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    I hate "from a certain point of view" more than anyone, but I don't remember a "certain point of view" guilt trip ever happening. I remember Ben telling Luke that Vader killed Luke's father, and then using that "certain point of view" line when he got caught in a lie. Ben may have been trying to get Luke to see Vader as the enemy, but I don't see how a guilt trip was involved.

    Anyway, I hope "a certain point of view" is used, just with a viable point of view this time, not a complete joke.

    Ben's version is so hilariously stupid even Luke was incredulous. Luke is often incredulous, but Ben's explanation was so stupid even an in-universe character couldn't believe it.

    Palpatine's "good is a point of view" is pointless coming from Palpatine.

    Ep VII, give me an example with at least a tiny shred of credibility to it.
     
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  13. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2012
    I was hoping someone wuld bring up Anakins training in realtionship to Qui-Gon, so thank you.......

    Qui-Gon wanted Anakin to be trained, and one could only assumed that he wanted him to be trained properly, but instead the council denied this initially. This created the circumstance that eventually built up and led to Anakins distrust in the Jedi, and allowed him to be manipulated by Palpatine. From the very begining, Anakin was made to feel that he didn't belong in the Jedi Order. Had he been accepted into the order as Qui-Gon wished, perhaps the fullfilment of the prophecy would have happened differently. Perhaps his turn to the darkside would never have happened, and Sidious would have been detroyed by Anakin under a unified Jedi Order.

    That being said, I dont think it was wrong in any way for Qui-Gon to want Anakin to be trained. It was the Jedi Order who messed it up.
     
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  14. Kay Suhyun

    Kay Suhyun Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2013
    It will be his brother.[face_devil]
     
  15. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    All in-universe explanations aside, this is the real reason anyone ever came up with that "certain point of view" stuff. It can sound very wise and deep and all that, but it is there simply to help them make the story work since they were basically making it up as they went along.
     
  16. Grand_Moff_Jawa

    Grand_Moff_Jawa Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 31, 2001
    Bingo. I was about to say the same thing.
     
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  17. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2013
    This is very true. "What if", Vader had not been his father and it was a lie? The only film to re-do would be ROTJ. I know that is such a loaded question and many will take issue, but my interest in SW origins cannot help but wonder what an alternative story could have been. There would be an alternate PT. And Vader falls in a Volcano (not on the side of a lava stream).

    Luke's destiny would remain the central theme it just wouldn't be as soap opera-ish.

    I know I would be asking the reverse question if the above scenario had played out...what if Vader had been Luke's father?
     
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  18. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I've always thought that Ben was trying to warn Luke about how "the truth" is largely subjective. Anyone who's been posting here for awhile should be familiar with that philosophy. :)
     
  19. handofluke

    handofluke Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2013
    Do people really have a problem with Vader being Luke's father? Seriously? There are Star Wars fanatics that don't like such a central and defining theme of Star Wars?

    Clearly they were making it up as they went along. But I think the "certain point of view" is entirely logical.
     
  20. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    That is true from the in-universe point of view, of course.

    I have to admit that I find it interesting that they managed to turn a problem that resulted form "we're just making this **** up" into an interesting philosophical idea that is truly worth considering, and we fans are analyzing it decades after it was thought up.
     
  21. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2013
    ...or that 'the truth' is difficult to face or inconvenient. :)
     
  22. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Jedi Student: Master Skywalker, did you really kiss your sister?

    Luke: Well, young padawan. You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Leia was a good friend. When I first knew her, she was already the best kisser in the galaxy..."

    Jedi Student: Ewwwwwwwwwwwww! *is unsure as to whether or not Skywalker is the teacher he claims to be* <.<
     
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  23. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Exactly, which is why I've always considered that scene an example of good writing.
     
  24. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2013
    ...and good acting and set design and costuming...it's just all fantastic. It's not even a debate, really.
     
  25. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    And great sideburns in that first one.
    Really, some of those were epic.