"Will of the force". What does this mean?

Why must it end? I know we're getting a bit off topic, but those who have faith do not always use it to gain power. Fanatics who abuse their faith, can and have for power. But there are those who do not abuse their faith in that regard. They still put their trust in something which may or may not exist. Even with scientific fact, people of a religious faith will not accept it. Hence the arugements that continue about creation versus evolution, which continue to this day. You cannot simply dismiss all faith, regardless of your beliefs. Because not everyone can share your opinions. I understand your point, but I'm also showing the counter to that. Anyway, let's be careful how we discuss this. We don't want this to become something that is more fitting for the Senate forums than for here.

As it is in regards to Star Wars, a religious type faith cannot be dismissed by the people who live within the Republic. Especially the Jedi and Sith. The Force has proven time and again that it is more than just power. In Star Wars, you have both the fanatic who abuses it and the non-fanatic, who seeks to understand it's divine mysteries. Hence Qui-gon learning how to become a ghost and Yoda admiting that there must be more to learn.

 

Well, the way for the fanatic/extremist to go is paved by "moderate" faith IMO.

As I say, it is something for people to hide behind, because we are taught that Faith is a virtue - something not to be questioned.

Everyone must walk on eggshells when the topic comes up (because of this concept), so I think that I will leave it there.

 

The will of the force definitely sounds like a faith thing and there's nothing wrong with that, if you ask me. You gotta believe in something, unless you're a complete nihilist. At the same time, I don't see the Jedi trying to attack science or politics. They're not trying to control everything. Sounds fair to me.

 

Joseph Campbel, Lucas' mythological mentor, termed mythology "someone else's religion."

All religions embody an important truth for their respective believers, believes that others politely term 'myth.' Problems appear when one people, tribe or nation believed that their god was the one true god and all others were false gods, and those beliefs of superiority led one people/tribe/nation to war against another solely because of religious differences.

Yet ironically Campbell points out that all human myths have many common elements based upon Jung's subconscious archetypes, so it is likely that all religions also contain elements of common truth within their respective dogmas, revealed in ways that pertain or appeal to specific cultural norms.

In the Star Wars Universe, many planetary systems identify with the notion of a universal force that flows through and guides all things. We on Earth would do well to heed that fictional message and find/focus on the common elements in our respective religions. For it is very likely that each people/tribe/nation possesses but one piece of the great religious puzzle. Only when those pieces are placed together will a true representation of God be achieved -- and I would not be surprise at all if it resembled the Jedi belief in 'the force.'

 

^Nice job on that last paragraph, DS.^
I totally agree.

 

Personally I don't believe the force has a will at all, the Jedi think it does, but that doesn't make it so. Neither the Jedi or the Sith know much about the force because instead of actually immersing themselves in the natural flow of the force they imprint their ideas of light and dark onto the force and obstruct it's natural flow.

 

I agree completely, though I think like it is with the Force, no mortal mind can truly comprehend everything on that level.

 

Except the Force has it's own ideals of what is light and dark. That's why there has to be a balance at the end of ROTJ. Anakin restores the balance and the Jedi have fought for years to maintain that balance, while the Sith have fought to disrupt that balance. This is why Qui-gon, Yoda and Ben can speak from the Netherealm of the Force, upon their deaths. They are connected to the Force and know all about it. They have transformed into the Force and are one with it. That's why the Jedi hide and wait until the time is right to come back and destroy the Sith. Why Anakin destroying Palpatine has a larger, more beneficial side effect than showing compassion for his compassionate son.

 

We've gone over this before, never in-universe is there any evidence given as to what balance of the force actually means, how the force actually operates, what the force is, or whether there is actually a light or dark side of the force. You can deluge me with as many Lucas quotes as you want, but those don't prove a thing, they never will. Your theory of the force is a perfectly valid theory, but just like mine, it's only a theory.

 

In-universe we are told what balance to the Force is. This is found in ROTS, when Obi-wan brings it up twice. That has not changed. It is not a theory, it is a fact. The Force is balanced with the death of the Sith and the story ends in ROTJ. Yoda and Obi-wan doubt that it is Anakin by the time ROTS ends, which is why they place their faith in Anakin's offspring. But in the end, Anakin comes back from the dark side and fulfills his destiny by bringing balance to the Force.

 

That's only the Jedi interpretation. The only fact is that the Jedi THOUGHT that's what "balance" meant. They even acknowledge the possibility that it has been misread. They don't have a clue. If I say it'll rain in two weeks and it does, does that mean that I made an actual prophecy? No.

 

You don't have the ability to see into the future. That's the difference between your scenario and what happened in the films. You are just making a prediction without anything to back it up. Whoever it was that came up with the prophecy, he/she forsaw it as a vision of the future. When the Jedi express doubt, it is because the prophecy is never brought up in the OT. Lucas is justifying why the Jedi don't rely on it, when training Luke. That doesn't mean that the prophecy was never misread. They just assume it was, because Anakin was acting like a whiny bitch.

 

Always in motion is the future. It's just a Jedi interpretation.

 

The future comes to pass, see ROTJ.

 

That doesn't mean the prophecy was true. All it means is that one interpretation of the prophecy just happened to occur.

 

I keep hearing about this "prophecy", but I have never read it.

Is it displayed word for word at any point?

 

Not that I'm aware of. The closest I've seen is the prophecy of the Son of the Suns, but that was written in 1977 about Luke rather than Anakin.

"?And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as THE SON OF THE SUNS."

 

It was never said that it was about Luke.

 

It was written back in 1977 when Anakin wasn't even Darth Vader let alone the Chosen One.

 

The 'prophecy' is simply a side bar, a historic artifact that anticipates the future rise of the Sith and then a chosen one who will destroy them.

The real significance is that Anakin, despite being labeled as the chosen one and then rejecting that label through personal choices, decides to finally accept the mantle, the destiny of the chosen one and destroy his Sith master -- and himself along with him, fulfilling the prophecy.

 

The Jedi give their spin on what they think the prophecy is, but it's never presented as a fact and they even doubt whether they are correct about the prophecy. There are no facts when it comes to the prophecy or balance to the force, you'll try to spin it like there are, but there aren't.

 

You are correct, on both accounts.

 

The story ends in ROTJ. Ergo the balance comes back to the Force.

The Jedi only doubt because things are getting worse and when Anakin becomes Vader, they lose faith in it. But the prophecy still comes true. Anakin still destorys the Sith and thus brings the Force back into balance. The story is over. Good has won over evil, with both sides on the level playing feild once more.

 

After reading some of the posts, it seems as if people are simply projecting their own views of morality and religion on what the Force and the "balance of the Force" really means. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas had this in mind.

 

Doesn't it predate 1977? It's not in the 1976 script.