"Will of the force". What does this mean?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by AnakinSucks, Jul 11, 2007.

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  1. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Actually I think you're right that it was in the earlier scripts. It was from 1975 according to http://starwarz.com/starkiller/
  2. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    The Jedi doubt because the prophecy isn't sound and they don't know what it actually means, or how it will even come to be. When the movies end evil is not gone, the force is not in balance, and the story is far from over.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    When ROTJ ends the Force is in balance. This was clear from the moment the prophecy was first mentioned.

    How can the Force not be balanced at the end of ROTJ? The Sith are gone.
    Oh, wait -- I bet Luke is arrogant. Yeah, that's it. Luke is an arrogant Jedi who dares to have Force powers that the common man does not. PURE EEEEEEVILLLL!!!!!!!8-}
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    I never said that evil is gone. I said that good and evil are on equal footing, once more. The Force goes out of balance because Palpatine rose to power and threw the Force out of balance, there was too much evil and not enough good. This is evident right away in the title crawl for ROTS.

    War! The Republic is crumbling under attacks by the ruthless Sith Lord, Count Dooku. There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere.

    As well as what Yoda said in AOTC.

    Yoda: "The shroud of the dark side has fallen."

    By the end of ROTJ, the Force is in balance and the story is over, because the Empire has crumbled and the Alliance will become the Republic. The Jedi exist once more with Luke ready to train Leia. Good triumphs over evil. Thus the story is over and they all lived happily ever after.

    The Force has two sides to it. Always has since 1975. Good and evil, light and dark, yin and yang, the Ashla and the Bogan.
  5. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    Kepp on believing that all you want, but it's not true. The force is never shown to have two sides, two groups that use and abuse the force are constantly shown doing as such, but their abuse of the force does not give it two sides. All they do is obstruct the natural flow of the force and cause it to be out of balance. Balance will only be achieved when the Sith and the Jedi both realize that the force does not recognize either light or dark and is only that way because of what they put into it.
  6. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Which is canonically wrong.
  7. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    There are never any in-universe sources given to counter any viewpoint of the force, even the one I presented. Interviews and statements from official sources are not canon, no matter how hard LFL tries to push them as such.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Then what is the meaning of the word "official"?

    If there is no dark side, then what clouded the perception of the Jedi? 8-}
  9. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4

    Official is only what happens in-universe, everything else is a nice supplementary that you can look at and take into account or disregard at your leisure, but interviews and sources are not canon, don't let LFL trick you into believing that.

    What clouded the perception of the Jedi was their arrogance, mainly the arrogance of Yoda. Many Jedi believed that the Sith had returned, but Yoda and other Jedi dismissed this as not being a possibility and instead said that the coming darkness they could feel was the coming of the prophecy. The Jedi clouded their own minds because of their unwillingness to be open to the force, they didn't want the Sith to be back so they ignored even the possibility that they coukld be back.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    So Yoda's "arrogance" percolates through the Force and diminishes the abilities of all other Jedi? [face_laugh]

    That's an interesting fabrication, but I prefer what actually happened in TPM, which is pretty much the opposite of the above.

    And what's this about the "coming darkness they could feel"? You claim there was no dark side, that their own arrogance clouded their perception. Do you really believe this?
    If so, shouldn't you have referred to a "coming arrogance"? Wait, that doesn't work, because the Jedi were already arrogant! What was this coming onset of greater arrogance they were expecting? [face_hypnotized]
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Yoda doesn't dismiss the return of the Sith, in TPM. Only Ki-Adi-Mundi and Mace Windu have that distinction.

    QUI-GON: "... my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord."

    MACE WINDU: "A Sith Lord?!?"

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millennium."

    MACE WINDU: "I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing."

    YODA: "Hard to see, the dark side is."

    "If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In 'The Phantom Menace' one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that the Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces."

    --George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002



    If the story wasn't about good and evil being on equal ground, Lucas wouldn't go around saying it was. But of course, Lucas has to be crazy and telling lies since that's all he's known for. :rolleyes: Never mind the fact that since 1975, Lucas has written and later stated that there are two sides to the Force. Good and evil. Light and dark.

    "The Force has two sides. It is not a malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Interview, July 24th 1980.

    "I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil?everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars."

    --George Lucas, ?The Mythology of Star Wars,? Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001


  12. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    He's talking about Yoda, right? (not Qui-Gon?)

    "In 'The Phantom Menace' one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further."

    Another reason why Yoda rocks :) They never listened to him enough.
  13. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, he's talking about Yoda since Jinn was never on the Council. :p
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Indeed. When it comes to the dark side, while Yoda could not sense the Sith and could not stop the Dark Lord, he was entirely aware of the fact that anything is possible. He knew that while the Jedi should be able to sense their return, that doesn't mean that something could prevent that. That they could miss their return and be caught unaware. This is why Yoda is the Grand Master. He's experienced enough to keep his options open.
  15. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    My reference of their belief that the Sith had not returned had nothing to do with TPM, that's something that has been brought up many times in the EU (the official chronology even touches upon this), and it was solidified by being brought up in TPM. I wasn't referring to the coming darkness, the Jedi are the ones who referred to the coming darkness. The Jedi believed, thanks to the arrogance of Yoda and the powerful majority, that the Sith weren't back but that their perception was being clouded by the arrival of the prophecy and the darkness that it entailed. Now, like most Jedi statemenst and views, that's a very hypoccritical statment to make. On one hand they say the Sith haven't returned, but then on the other hand they say that the prophecy that someone will destroy the Sith is finally coming to fruition. How can one be without the other? This statement more than anything shows how the Jedi were blinded by their own arrogance, they belived what they chose to believe, not what was right in front of their face. Keep in mind when you respond this time, that that was the Jedi's view, and not mine.

    Seriously DS, for once could you provide some actual substance to a discussion instead of Lucas quotes. Provide your own opinion, provide your take on what happened, quit falling back to the Lucas quotes, they prove nothing other than that you can cut and paste.

  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The one is Sifo-Dyas. :D
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I get it. They believed that their perception was being clouded by the arrival of the clouding of their perception. [face_hypnotized]

    The prophecy was not considered imminent until the emergence of Anakin, by which point it was obvious the Sith were back.

    This sounds like a misreading of Labyrinth of Evil, or something out of the NEC. Yoda never suggested, in TPM or in any EU I'm familiar with, that the Sith weren't back.
  18. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    Yoda didn't think they could be back, he doubted Qui-Gon along with everyone else.

    Blame the Jedi for your being confused by the first quote, that's the way they thought, not me. In my estimation the Jedi's peception was clouded by their arrogance, the Sith were back but the Jedi refused to believe this and that led to their perception being clouded. When you deny what is actually happening and instead try to peg something else as the problem then your vision will be clouded.
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I think you made that up, unless you can provide a reference. The problem is that you "Blame the Jedi" for everything.

    Yoda in no way doubted Qui-Gon. Show me the evidence of this. You made that part up too.
  20. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    I already gave you the only real reference you need, it's on page 36 of The New Essential Chromology, some Jedi thought the Sith were back well before the period of TPM, but Yoda and other Jedi didn't believe them, instead they thought the encroaching darkness was the coming of the prophecy, not the Sith.

    Yoda sits there with the rest of the Council and tells Qui-Gon that more investigation is needed into the matter of the mysterious figure that he faced on Tattooine, because the Sith have been gone for years, and it's unlikely they have returned.
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I knew it. It's the NEC. The book that said Maul was sent to Tatooine to prevent the Jedi from interfering with Anakin. [face_laugh]

    Anyway, you seem determined to rewrite history regarding TPM. Yoda's response in that film was "Hard to see the dark side is". Meaning, "the Sith could be back and we wouldn't necessarily know".
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    The Jedi Council didn't think the Sith could come back without their knowing it. Nor did they believe that Anakin was the Chosen One. They stopped believing in the prophecy. Qui-gon still believed in the prophecy, especially after he was attacked by someone who wasn't a Jedi, since no Jedi would dare attack another Jedi. He realized that it was a Sith, since there's no such thing as a Dark Jedi in the films. Yoda is the only Jedi Master who believes that it is possible for the Sith to return, because the dark side can be hard to see. The Council only start to believe after Anakin blew up the Trade Federation vessel and Qui-gon got himself killed by Maul, that's when they believe everything. They only lose faith in the prophecy when Anakin starts acting like a spoiled brat.

    Seriously, PerfectCell, could you quit relying on the eu as your only resource of what's going on. All you're doing is showing that you read a book, which about 80% of the people here haven't even read and don't care to. :rolleyes:

    I did point out the facts, but all you do is ignore them. I point out in the film that Yoda doesn't doubt that the Sith are back and post a quote from a film.
  23. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I think Perfect Cell is talking about my good buddy and informant: Mr. Kibh Jeen...
    the insane madman who ranted about the Sith's return under The Rule of Two. If so, PerfectCell is correct. The Jedi, including Yoda, blew him off. As I have stated before regarding this subject, the Jedi were pompous and failed to remain vigilant. Just because Kibh had gone mad doesn't mean that his Sith-info should have been so blatantly disregarded. The Jedi know their history, any mention of the Sith should have sent them searching.

    This was, IMO, one of their greatest failures.
    And it happened under Yoda's watch.
  24. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    In hindsight they didn't pay him enough heed, but then it was the rantings of a psychotic madman. They had no reason to assume he had credibility.
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    But any mention of the words: 'Return of the Sith' should have at least warranted an investigation. The source shouldn't really matter, but the information does...
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