"Will of the force". What does this mean?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by AnakinSucks, Jul 11, 2007.

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  1. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    The Will of the Force is whatever it takes for the author or filmmaker to move his or her story along.
  2. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    The source matters entirely. A babbling psychotic isn't an source that has the credability of a respected Jedi Master. We see that while they're still suspicious(other than Yoda himself) they take it as more of a possibility with the latter source than they did the former.
  3. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    We are talking about the Sith, right?
    I don't care who told them, or what his state of mind was.
    The Jedi were arrogant fools for not following up on the lead.

  4. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    What is there to follow up, exactly? At the end of TPM, we have:

    -1 bisected Sith Lord.

    -His ship (which self-destructed days later.)

    -Some scared-witless, hopelessly loyal Neimoidians who never knew Sidious' face or identity, or his true goals.

    -A plot that simply did not seem to make any sort of sense at all given the point of view of the Jedi at the time-remember they're on the inside looking out; we're on the outside looking in. From the Jedi point of view, the Sith gained absolutely nothing at Naboo-of course, we knew otherwise. ;)

    All of that leads exactly nowhere. At the best, they could've gotten Sidious' name..maybe. I don't see the Neimoidians selling out Sidious; they're terrified of him.
  5. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    The force is never shown to have two sides, two groups that use and abuse the force are constantly shown doing as such, but their abuse of the force does not give it two sides. All they do is obstruct the natural flow of the force and cause it to be out of balance. Balance will only be achieved when the Sith and the Jedi both realize that the force does not recognize either light or dark and is only that way because of what they put into it.


    This is probably the most sensible statement I have ever read.
  6. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9


    Yeah, shame it's completely wrong.

    Fact: Despite Lucas' backtracking, which he is more than allowed to do given that he is the creator of all this, he's been saying for thirty years that the Force has a light side and a dark side.

    Fact: if there is no Light Side and Dark Side, then ultimately the OT is completely pointless, as is every last bit of OT dialogue/script describing the Empire, the Emperor, and Vader as evil. If there is no duality to the Force, then there's no point to ROTJ's redemption theme-it'd be as realistic as The Lion King's story with real lions. If there is no duality to the Force, Vader turning on the Emperor has no meaning whatsoever-it's no more noble or heroic than say, a lion defending his cubs against another male lion trying to kill them. That's not noble; that's simple genetics.

    As for "the Force is never shown to have two sides," well, lol.

    Let's compare say, Anakin tossing chunks of fruit around with Palpatine murdering Luke with Force-generated lightning. If I need to illustrate the differences in these activities... :p

    Also: If Luke feels cold around the Dark Side cave on Dagobah, but if there is no Dark Side, then why doesn't Luke feel cold all the time? He should, if there is no duality to the Force.



  7. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6

    Gotta go back a page...

    Master_Starwalker and I were having some robust dialogue concerning the time-period when the Jedi blew off a former Knight, turned murderous madman, after he ranted to them about the return of the Sith under the Rule of Two.

    IIRC, Right before they executed him.
  8. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I see this, but there's still nothing there to follow up. There is nothing there beyond "The Sith have come back!" That's not a lead; that's a rumor. Where exactly were they supposed to look? The Senate? The Courts? Any one of a million or so star systems? There's no place to begin. It's like trying to solve an algebra equation with just the answer.

    The word of a murderous madman (your words) are not exactly the best evidence to go with, either. And when a credible source did bring forward evidence that the Sith were indeed back, Yoda did not discount him.

    Also, it's been shown in the EU that at least some Jedi suspected the Sith had returned as far back as 200 years before TPM. At that point, finding them unless they openly revealed themselves would have been a practical impossibility; they weren't even in any positions of prominence at that time; only manipulators with pawns scared to death of them who aren't saying anything.

    Finally, using a book/comic published after TPM was released as evidence against the Jedi is hardly fair, imo. It's assuming precognitive abilities on the part of Mr. Lucas, who of course does not possess any such power. :p

    As for whether Lucas deliberately cast the Jedi in an arrogant/obtuse light, it would not surprise me. Learning/adapting is a big thing in SW. Luke does it, Vader does it, hell, everyone except Tarkin, the Ewoks, and the Emperor learn something about something or another in the OT.


    IMO, the greater story of the Jedi Order in the saga is that while they screwed up big, it was 1) something they learn from in the long run (just look at how different Luke is when he confronts Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ to Obi-Wan & Yoda in ROTS) and 2) that while their arrogance cost the galaxy dearly, it may have been unavoidable; it may have been their destiny to be destroyed.

  9. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    What did Jeen have to profit from telling the Jedi about the Sith's return?
    Nothing.

    They owed it to the memory of every dead Jedi on Ruusan to follow it up, and because of their arrogance and self-absorbtion they met a similar fate via Order 66. In that context, they got what they deserved.
  10. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    He might've stood to gain nothing but he's, you know, crazy. Anything he said was open to question.
  11. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    But they didn't even question it. That's the point.
    They were soo complacent that they did nothing when someone mentioned their mortal enemy.
  12. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    It's not just 'someone', it's a crazy person who is also a mass murderer.

    If say, Jeffrey Dahmer said he had proof that someone believed to be quite dead a thousand years ago was still alive, most people would be like "yeah, ok, whatever". That's not arrogance; that's how people are. This guy has *zero* credibility; it's not arrogance, it's reality.

    Now, when the Sith are shown to be still very much among the living, the Jedi do search for them; if anything, their downfall was not anticipating that the Sith had changed in the last thousand years into a much more dangerous opponent than they had been previously. And that's not particularly arrogant either; after all, the Jedi are not all-powerful, have never been portrayed as such, and the Sith hadn't ever changed particularly in any point in their few thousand years of history before. That's not arrogance; that's the Jedi having failings that most people are prey to.

  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    They signed their own death warrants the day they blew off Jeen.
  14. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    There was nothing to follow, beyond the rantings of a crazed murderer.

    And ultimately, they didn't sign their own death warrants. See Episode Six: Return of the Jedi. :p
  15. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    One thing is for sure, the will of the force was with the Sith when they disregarded the lead.:eek:

    Until the morrow...
  16. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah, and look where the Sith wound up. Defeated. :p


  17. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Tell that to Emperor Krayt.

    ***

    kidding.
  18. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Oh, he'll lose too. If nothing else, one of the pokier parts of his costume will take out his eyes. :p
  19. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Yes, we're talking about a cult that was believed to be destroyed for 1,000 years and the only one who contradicts this belief is a babbling psychotic.

    The Jedi made an understandable mistake given that they didn't have the benefit of hindsight.

    They sent a Jedi Knight and Padawan to kill him but, that's not quite an execution.
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That's the figure LOE gives for the time the dark side began gaining in strength. Of course, an obvious conclusion would be that the Sith had something to do with it.

    I don't know if Kibh Jeen comes from a book or comic. In any event, he may be completely unnecessary. The reason behind the Kibh Jeen retcon was to explain how Yoda knew about the Rule of Two. However, the ROTS novel assumes that the Jedi know about Darth Bane, know about his "fall", and know that there have only been two Sith at any time since then. It may be that the Rule of Two was learned by the Jedi at the time of "the fall of Darth Bane".
    At least it can be hoped that Drew will address this issue in the next Darth Bane book, if he is allowed to do so, and if the ROTS novel reference is going to be backed up in continuity.
  21. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    Fenn, the NEC is the main source, but as SSS pointed out, there are others that lend credence to my point.

    You don't point out facts, you never do, all you do is unleash Lucas quote after Lucas quote. Once again a great way to show everyone that you know how to use the cut and paste feature, but not a way to show that you can form your own opinion or can interpet the work for yourself. The EU isn't my only resource, the entire SW in-universe happenings are my resource, and they are far more credible than supplying nothing but a string of quotes from someone else.

    Like I've said more than enough, what Lucas says in an out of universe context does not matter one bit.

    Ah, but the redemption was never about the battle between light and dark, the redemption was all about one man redeeming his own actions. His actions have nothing to do with the force because they are his actions, and his act of saving Luke was his way of redeeming himself in the light of his previous actions. There is no force spin to put on that, there is no light or dark side spin to put on that, all that is there is one man's attempt to make things right in his own eyes. Once again it comes back to the fact that it's all about his emotions and why he commits the act, the force has nothing to do with it.

    Those actions result because of what the user is putting into them. Sidious is full of malice and hatred and he pours those emotions into the force giving it the edge you see in that scene. In the Anakin scene he's pouring the emotions of love into that act, and that gives that act the tranquility that you see. Two completely different acts, but they both function because of what the user puts into the force.

    He feels cold because he has already started the process of pouring his fear and anger into the cave. Before Yoda makes him sware of the cave Luke is fine, but once he knows of the cave he starts radiating fear, anger, and hatred, and by bringing those emotions out he causes the cave to take a malovent turn. Why would Kuke feel cold all the time if there is no duality to the force? If there is no duality to the force then Luke still has emotions and those emotions will drive how he shapes and uses the force.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    What are they?
  23. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    Nope, I've never once looked at the databank, and my reading of Wookiepedia have been sparse at best. There's TPM for one and the Jedi's refusal to believe the Sith are back even when the Sith are right there slapping them in the face. There are other EU sources, and then there is the story that SSS has been reciting for the past few pages, the Jedi had their warning long before TPM, but they chose to ignore it.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    When you say "Jedi" it makes it sound like you mean all the Jedi.
    Yoda clearly does not doubt the Sith are back. Also, Mace talks about unraveling the "mystery of the Sith". If the Sith are dead and gone, end of story, then what is the big mystery?

    Where does the Kibh Jeen story come from?
  25. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    The Jedi operate under a majority system though, that has always been one of their major faults. The majority view the force differently than Qui-Gonn, so therefore Qui-Gon''s views are wrong. The majority of the Jedi don't believe that the Sith are back, so therefore the Sith can't be back.
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