"Will of the force". What does this mean?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by AnakinSucks, Jul 11, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Once again you're making things up. Where did any source say that the "majority" of the Jedi don't believe the Sith are back? Is Ki-Adi-Mundi a majority of one?
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    So if some nutjob comes up to you and says that world is going to end, are you automatically going to believe him? No, you're not. You're going to think he's a crackpot and tell him to stop smoking crack.

    There are 12 Jedi Masters on the Council. Ki-Adi and Mace are the only ones who doubt that the Sith could return. They think that whoever attacked Qui-gon was lucky and not a Sith Lord. They however take into consideration that this warrior could be a Sith, which is why Mace says that going back will draw out the mystery mand and this will unravel the mystery of the Sith. If he can take two Jedi or not. If they aren't caught off guard or not. Yoda, does not dismiss that they might not have known if the Sith have come back or not. They need proof that the Sith are back and that this boy is the Chosen One. They get that proof.

    And yes, the OT is as much about Anakin's own redemption as it is about the Force. Not only does Luke fight for the soul of his father, but this battle will determine whether the Force comes back into balance. If Luke succeeds, then he can get his father to help him destroy Palpatine. If he fails to save his father or turns himself, then all will be lost. Luke must work with the Force. He must embrace the good aspects of the Force and stay away from the dark side. Not just within himself, but from without.
  3. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    I'm not making anything up, this was shown in TPM when Ki voices his doubts and other masters nod their agreement with him.
  4. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    Whether Luke wins or not the force will not be in balance. That story has nothing to do with the force, the force is nothing but a tool to help the real story of Anakin's personal redemption ,and Luke's journey to bring him there, along.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    If there is no duality to the Force, how can the Force not be in balance? Your "argument" is self-contradictory.

    And the story having nothing to do with the Force... laughable.[face_laugh]
  6. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    The force does have a balance, balance does not require a duality. All balance requires is that the force is back to being one and not bogged down by the two ideologies weighing down upon it. Balance is achieved when the force is in it's natural state, and in it's natural state it is a free flowing entity not encumbered by the input of two rival groups.

    The story doesn't have anything to do with the force, the force is nothing but a tool to help the overall character story along, that is obvious from the moment the movie starts. It's akin to Shawshank Redemption, the prison has nothing to do with the story at all, the story is all about the struggle for personal redemption that each man endures, and the prison is just a tool to facilitate that struggle.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Force is in balance when the story is over, because the overwhelming evil that has infected the universe has been wiped out. There is now good and evil again, on the same equal footing that it was for many long centuries. Good and evil always exists, both internally and externally. The only thing that the Sith are guilty of is manipulating the Force to their own ends, while the Jedi listen to the Force and follow it's teachings.

    The Force is more than a tool. It's sorta like a MacGuffin, in that this is what helps the story along, but unlike a true MacGuffin, this still has revelance even if it is not mentioned in the OT. In the PT, it is that which brings Anakin from his humble beginnings and sets him on his path. It is why Qui-gon takes such a keen interest in Anakin and why Obi-wan picks it up as his own. It serves to tell us why war is bad. Why someone like the Sith should never rule the galaxy. It adds weight to what Anakin does by killing Palpatine and then dying himself. Before, the death of the Sith was just a by-product of Anakin's redemption. Now we see why its important to destroy the Sith. It's not just stopping the Emperor from killing his son, it's about Anakin fulfilling his destiny. The reward is that the galaxy is free, the Empire will topple, the Jedi will return as will the Republic and the Force is finally back in balance.

    The Force may not require duality, but it does. Star Wars is about duality. Just as it always has from 1975 on. Both of the characters and of the Force.

    DEAK: "You must hurry for the force of the Ashla grows weak, and I don't know how much longer father can hold out."

    BERU: "Without Deak to help you, the way will be difficult, and chances of your reaching your father are slim. Don't try it if you think you are going to fail. The power of the Bogan force has grown strong; but if the Kiber Crystal were to fall into the hands of the enemy, all hope would be lost..."

    LUKE: "As you know, the "FORCE OF OTHERS" has two halves: Ashla, the good, and Bogan, the paraforce or evil part. Fortunately, Skywalker came to know the good half and was able to resist the paraforce; but he realized that if he taught others the way of the Ashla, some, with less strength, might come to know Bogan, the dark side, and bring unthinkable suffering to the Universe."

    LUKE: "During one of his lessons a young PADAWAN-JEDI, a boy named Darklighter, came to know the evil half of the force, and fell victim to the spell of the dreaded Bogan. He ran away from his instructor and taught the evil ways of the Bogan Force to a clan of Sith pirates, who then spread untold misery throughout the systems. They became the personal bodyguards of the Emperor. The Jedi were hunted down by these deadly Sith knights. With every Jedi death, contact with the Ashla grows weaker, and the force of the Bogan grows more powerful."

    Dated January 28th, 1975. Lucas has maintained that the Force has two sides and that has translated into the films. That's why there is the good and the dark. That's why Yoda says the tree cave on Dagobah was strong with the dark side, because it exists there. It is why both the Sith and the Jedi speak of the two sides of the Force and why the prophecy was created by Lucas. It is why Yoda and Ben both warn Luke of the dark side, for it is a real threat. Not just within either. Lucas, Kasdan, Kurtz, Kershner and the rest will attest that this is true and has been for as long as Star Wars has been in existence.
  8. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    The Jedi manipulate the force just as much as the Sith do. The Jedi get a free pass from most people because they use the supposed light side and this makes their actions okay. The force does not subscribe to the idea of a light or dark side, and that is why t
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Again, you have no proof for your assertions. I'm using it from the films and from Lucas. You're just going off your opinion which is fine, but it's not enough to prove credible. The Jedi never once try to obstruct the Force. They have tried to understand it, but have reached a point where they cannot hear it properly. They eventually do when Qui-gon starts talking to Yoda, because he is one with the Force and thus he speaks on it's behalf. He reaffirms that the Jedi are right and now they must learn to go beyond what they've learned and go further. To take these teachings and give them to Anakin's children, so that they can save everyone. This is the same way the Whills believe in the good and the bad, and they're way more in tune than the Jedi.

    Lucas has used the various religious philosophies in creating the Force. In each case there is always the same, common denominator. The two opposing factions. Good and evil. Light and dark. Yin and Yang. The Force is a represented as this, always has been and always will be.
  10. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    My assertations are taken directly from the films, that's where all of it comes from. It came from the films first and then it was supplemented by the EU. However, in-universe in the films there is no evidence given one way or the other to fully support any view of the force.

    Yoda never comes to have a better understanding of teh force, this is shown perfectly in ESB where he dismisses anything that goes against the old ways of teaching a Jedi. He hasn't learned at all, he is still stuck in the same dogmatic teachings.

    You can interpet the force as that all you want, but that is only one interpetation of the force, it is no more right or wrong than any other interpetation. The force itself is never shown to have a good and an evil in any of the films, two groups are shown to be good and evil, but that is never the case with the force.
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    What does Yoda dismiss? He is right at every turn. Luke is reckless. He's too old to begin the training, yet he still trains him. He had every reason to doubt Luke, because the boy is too much like his father and that is troublesome. For nine hundred years has he been a Jedi, eight hundred of which was spent training all manner of Jedi. So when Luke leaves for Bespin, it is history repeating itself. You have to remember that Yoda is disappointed in Anakin and does not want to see Luke fail either. But it's kind hard to believe in the boy, when he has proven that the last two decades appear to have been a bad idea afterall. He tested Luke and he failed miserably. It's only through good fortune that Luke resists his father and comes back.


    The Force is shown in the film to exist beyond the two groups. The tree cave on Dagobah, a place strong with the dark side of the Force. There is no Jedi and Sith there, but the dark side of the Force exists as an actual thing.

    The eu, we have seen lately that the Jedi, especially Ben Skywalker realize that the Force must indeed be external as much as internal. Most notably on Zoist.
  12. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    Yoda dismisses everything, he dismisses everything that he was supposedly taught by Qui-Gonn. Instead of changing the way he thinks the moment he begins to teach Luke he reverts back to the old dogmatic Jedi teachings. Luke leaving like that was not a sign of failure, but rather it was a sign that Yoda still had no idea how emotions do connect to the force and how strong the can make you, both for bad and for good. It also showed that Yoda still had no idea what it means to be truly selfless since Luke did not leave for himself, but rather to save other people.


    The Sith are an ideological group, they by themselves are not the "dark side" of the force, lumping them together with a side of the force is a mistake. The cave is benign, it is full of the force just like any other place would be, it only becomes "dark" because of what Luke takes into the cave with him or the emotions that Yoda has projected onto the cave.

    There are still many characters in the EU that don't share that viewpoint, because even at that time they know very little of the force. That is one of the great things about the force, it is open to so many interpetations, and at this point none can be labeled as correct or wrong. Until the day where the force goes beyond philosophy and it is given an in-universe definition it will always be viewed in a myriad of different ways, and no one will be wrong for their viewpoint.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Luke's a problematic case. Being raised by the Lars, he becomes a day dreamer. He's not disciplined and that is important to being a Jedi. Yoda tested him to see if he had all this control that he should have being raised by a family and he doesn't. And Luke did leave for himself. His friends do not want him coming to Cloud City and his ignorance nearly gets him killed or turned. He thinks of himself rather than of his friends, who think of him rather than themselves. Luke even admits later on that he was wrong to have left.

    The cave is dark to begin with. It's not what Luke takes with him. That vision is only because he is filled with fear to begin with. If he had no fear, he'd still have a vision and he'd still sense the dark side existing in the cave. Luke feels fear, cold and death. That is the dark side. Yoda didn't project feelings, he let Luke sense that all on his own. And going with the eu for a bit, Luke still senses the dark side within that tree cave after Yoda dies. Same with Anakin Solo. Leia senses it where the second Death Star blew up. Luke and his students sensed it on Yavin 4. Palpatine senses it on Korriban, while Ben and Bane sense it on Zoist.

    It's more than them. It's the Whills and the Aing-Tii who see that the Force has an external source, as much as an internal. They're far more in touch with the Force and they too, know that the Force has a good and a dark side.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You mean Bane sensed it on Korriban, right? ( Although he sensed it much more strongly on Lehon. ) I'm not familiar with any story where Bane went to Ziost.

    Not yet, anyway. [face_whistling]
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Not Zoist, but Lehon/Rakata Prime.
  16. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    You are referring to characters that have already made up their minds and decided that the force has two sides so they project that viewpoint on all of their surroundings. All of the places where they think they feel the dark side are actually benign and have no dark side at all, but the characters take their feelings of fear, anger, hate, and evil and pour them out into the place making it seem like it does have a dark side. They aren't sensing the place, they are merely sensing what is in themsleves.

    The Whills and the Aing-Ti are yet two more groups that have different feelings on the force, they are no more right or wrong than any other group. Just because they voice their viewpoint that does not mean they are more knowledgeable on the force than any other group. The one thing that the entire GFFA has shown us is that outside of knowing how to draw power from the force almost all beings are truly clueless when it comes to what the force actually is. That is why there are different viewpoints on the force, and that is why the force will always be in question.
  17. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Comparing an apocalyptic street person, who doubles as a crack-head, to a former Jedi... that was amazing to behold. They knew Kibh Jeen. Sith only exist to gain dominion. Thousands of Jedi had been killed by Sith throughout GFFA history.

    If my former comrade who turned into a nutjob, warned me of the return of some ultra-worse nutjobs, who happened to also be my mortal enemy... I think it'd be reasonably prudent to make sure there weren't any of those nutjobs sneaking around in the shadows. I call it common sense, and the Jedi were foolish to dismiss the dark Jedi's tip...

    The fact that they knew him makes it even worse.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Who's the bigger nutjob: the nutjob or the nutjob who follows him?
  19. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    The one who doesn't FOLLOW-UP on the nutjob's lead.;)
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That wasn't one of the choices.
  21. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Ummmm, nutjobs don't play fair.:p
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I'm beginning to realize that. :p
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Apparently, the whole Kibh Jeen thing was invented by Abel. Should we really evaluate the Jedi harshly for something that didn't even happen in the films, and is a dubious piece of EU continuity at best?
  24. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Is is not a part of the whole? If we allow EU for one topic, then for another we render it void? Where and who wrote it, doesn't matter so much once it's declared as Canon.

    IIRC, that Kibh Jeen episode was written to cover a TPM dialogue screw-up(s) in the first place.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But as you have pointed out, it makes the Jedi look stupid, so it doesn't work as a TPM fix.

    Not all EU is created equal. If it serves the saga, so be it, but if it doesn't work, that's why it's called EU.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.