"Will of the force". What does this mean?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by AnakinSucks, Jul 11, 2007.

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  1. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Subjective is, as subjective does.

    ***

    it makes the Jedi look stupid

    I sooooo could've had a field-day with that.:p

  2. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    All EU is equal, unless it is an infinities story, it's all a part of the GFFA and it is all canon.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's EU canon. Hypothetically a future film ( if there were one ) could blow it out of the water.
  4. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    Any future work could change any past work, that's one of the pitfalls of a major franchise like SW, there's always going to be lots of retconning and story changes neccesitated by future works that change what has already happened.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Where is your proof of this?

    The Whills know more because they've spent their life studying the mysteries of the Force and are to be much more knowledgeable than the Jedi. That's why Qui-gon was able to learn to retain his identity and why as the Force, he speaks to Yoda and they in turn speak to Luke.
  6. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    The proof is in the fact that every single person you listed has already decided to label the force with sides and choose one of those sides. As such they are constantly projecting the way they thinks things should be onto others, that is why they sense either the light or dark of the force in an object, because they project those labels onto the object.

    The Whills are just like any other group that studies the force, they think they know, but they really don't. The Jedi and the Sith spent incredible amounts of time studying the force and yet they will be the first to admit that they still have no idea about what the force is or whether they have it right. The Whills are no different, they may have it right, but no one knows, including The Whills themselves, because no one in the GFFA actually has a deep understanding of the Force as of yet.
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    When does Yoda on Dagobah ever exhibit feelings of anger, hate, and especially "evil"?

    It's not a question of "the characters have already made up their minds". It's not a matter of personal preference, like contemporary religion. What I'm hearing from you is a religious-freedom argument like "all ideas are equally valid". This saga is a fantasy. We are talking about an energy field that Yoda has been studying for over eight hundred years. And he is not a moron. If he was "projecting" he would have had far more than enough evidence to figure that out in the first hundred years or so!

    Arguing that the Force has no dark side in the GFFA is like arguing that there is no gravity in our universe. If it makes you feel better, you can chant "there is no gravity" over and over and over again. But someone can still stand right in front of you, release an object from a standing position, and watch it fall to the ground. The fact that you "made up your mind" that there was no gravity does not mean that the "no gravity" viewpoint is valid.

    Also, how can the cave be "benign"? If it can't be a "domain of evil" then it can't be "benign" either.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yeah, but I'm talking where is your proof that this is the case? Where is your proof that the Jedi and Sith are thrusting their beliefs on the Force. That the Force doesn't have a good and a bad side.
  9. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    He doesn't have to exhibit those feelings, what he does is he takes those feelings and projects them onto the cave. Yoda himself may not feel those at all, but he has decided that the cave is a place of evil so therefore he makes it a place of evil.

    It's an energy field that the Jedi have been studying for millenia, but by their own words they still have no idea how it actually works or what it's true nature is. There is no correlation at all between that and gravity. We know gravity, we understand exactly how gravity works and we can label it accordingly. There are only theories as far as the force is concerned, there is no concrete evidence of what it is at all, we know nothing about it. That is why any discussion of the force is still theoretical in nature, whereas any discussion of gravity would be grounded in emperical data.

    My proof is in the fact that we see the force being used by both people who claim to be light side and those who claim to be dark side. They both use the force, and they both use certain aspects of the force freely, but it is only when the personal factor of emotion comes into play that they give the force the labels of light and dark. That is why the force consists only of what you bring into it, the force flows along fine until you pour your emotions into it, then that shapes the force into soemthing it is not meant to be. That is shown throughout the saga anytime any Jedi or Sith pours there emotions into the force.

    Now, on the other hand where is your proof that the force has two sides. And I'm talking your proof, not something Lucas said either before or after the movies, something in the movies that gives you proof that the force actually has two sides?

    In the pathological sense, the cave is not malignant with the dark side but rather it is benign.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Those words come from EU. They are not a part of the films, and in any event it is an exaggeration to say that they have "no idea".
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    First you say that the Jedi pour their own feelings of fear, anger, hate, and evil into the cave and that makes it seem like it has the dark side. This is, of course, merely a statement of Jedi-hate and moral equivalency. The Jedi don't specialize in those feelings like others do, and are not given to projection.

    Later you admit Yoda "may not feel those at all". So he "takes those feelings" ( you know, the ones he's not feeling, so it's unclear where he got them from:rolleyes: ) and projects them onto the cave?

    But your story has changed: "He has decided that the cave is a place of evil so therefore he makes it a place of evil."
    Now the issue is not about the projection of feelings at all, but your assumption that Yoda has borderline personality disorder and dwells in a fictive reality. Apparently, Yoda showed up on Dagobah, decided that the cave was a place of evil, and therefore in his perception it became a place of evil. And that's the limit of his honesty with himself. Right.[face_talk_hand]

    But there's a logical flaw here. Why would Yoda decide the cave was evil, as opposed to Force-neutral, in the first place? If there is no dark side, and as you say "Yoda himself may not feel those at all", then at the exact point when Yoda first discovers the cave, WHAT CAUSES THE NEGATIVE FEELINGS TO ORIGINATE?

    In the case where there is a dark side, the answer is simple.
  12. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    Those words come from the novelisation, and since you follow the LFL levels of canon the novelization is considered on the same level as the film. And no, it is not an exaggeration, that is what Obi-Wan says, that they still have no idea as to what something as vast as the force actually entails.

    Yeah, nice try with the Jedi hate. Funny thing is that Sith do the same thing with benign places that they fill with their emotions and turn into whatever manifestation of emotion they want them to be. You clearly missed what I was saying about Yoda projecting, and in fact to project you don't have to feel what you are projecting at all. Sometimes that is the case, but in others you project emotions that you aren't even feeling onto other things. Yoda projects his preconcieved notions of the force into that cave and he causes it to manifest those emotions. I don't know for sure whether or not he was feeling those emotions at the time, but I think he was, and that's always how I have interpeted that scene. However I do realize that it could have also been a form of outward projection where even though he wasn't feeling those emotions he was projecting them onto the cave. Either explanation will work and I honestly haven't decided which one is the more correct one yet in my own musings on the issue.

    My story on this has never changed, I have always believed in the two options that I presented above, but in my own studies of that scene I have yet to pick a definitive correct one.

    This is where the thematic trappings of the scene come in. Yoda looks at a cave that is full of dangerous animals on a planet that all Jedi believe is full of dark energy and he immediately associates it with dark energy. The cave is benign but Yoda looks at the planet and the cave and he places his learned behavior in regards to that planet into action. He believes that the planet is adark side planet because that is what he has been told and that is what he has learned, so he automatically associates it as a dark side planet. This extends to the cave where because of its placement on the planet he associates automatically as being of the dark side.
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Except you miss the part where Yoda says it is a place of evil. Yoda's admission of more to learn refers the hows and whys they failed to stop the rise of the Sith. It goes back to the Jedi credo, which is that they use the Force for knowledge. The Jedi stopped learning and by doing so, they were already lost. Qui-gon offers and teaches Yoda more about the Force, which he and Ben use to teach Luke.

    No matter how hard you try to deny it, the Force has two sides to it. Star Wars is about the duality in all of life. And it is about balance between all things. Not just within yourself, but to the Force itself. Just think about that for a moment. The Force is a power, but it is a power that like in all things has duality. It's common in religious beliefs, of which the Force is a blend of each one. It is also based on the views of morality. Star Wars deals in complex things, but they also deal in simplicity. The simplicity is that there is good and evil. The Force goes out of balance when evil gains control. It goes back when good regains the footing that it has lost.

    The levels state that the films come first and foremost above all else, including the novelizations. That's why Lucasfilm policy is that you must defer to the films, when talking about canon. ROTS states what the prophecy is, which comes to pass. The novelization repeats what is stated in the film. Lucas statements then confirm this. And then you have the NEC which also confirms it. All confirm that balance comes back to the Force in ROTJ.

    Obi-wan's statements in the novelization are from before he talks to Qui-gon and learns more about the Force.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Which novelization? ROTS? Assuming that's what you mean, he talks about their lack of complete understanding of the will of the Force. He doesn't say or imply that they have "no idea" whether the Force has a dark side or not. You're misrepresenting the novel.

    I should let you in on a little secret: people who project really are feeling those emotions, even though they pretend not to be. Hence the need to get rid of them and fictitiously stick them on someone else. The idea of there being a dark side is not the same as dark side emotions. If the mere concept of dark side emotions can cause the cave to manifest dark side emotions, then the cave is an instrument which reads minds and converts mental concepts into reality. In that case, the Vader generated by the cave would have been real.

    Who knows what you have always believed? Who could possibly divine such a thing? All I know is that your story changed during the thread.

    Okay, this part is another complete fabrication. "All the Jedi believe that Dagobah is a dark side planet?" Total B.S. Dangerous animals? Are you serious? None of those animals would be dangerous to Yoda. Anyway, there are dangerous animals/aliens/people on every planet. By your logic, Yoda would interpret every planet in the GFFA as being of the dark side.

    I note that you haven't questioned my statement that for Yoda to be as you have described, he would have to be a childish mental patient. You can write that into the story if you want, but it's an untenable position to take. You're confusing Yoda with certain people in the real world -- the Sithy ones. That's what I mean by "Jedi hate". It means nothing to you that a character is a Jedi, not to mention the Grand Master of the Order. To you they're projecting, insecure liars and are no better at knowing themselves or what's going on around them than anyone else.
  15. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    You are misrepresenting what I said. I never said anything in regards to the dark side of the force when it pertains to the Jedi's understanding of the force. I merely said that they don't completely understand the force, because no group does, and they themselves have said as such. Going from that I think it's fairly self-serving to dismiss any other theories of the force when the Jedi themselves admit that they still don't completely understand the foprce.

    There are different froms of projection, that's a basic psychological fact. There is the most common form of projection where you project your feelings onto something to make it what you want. However another form of projection is where you project based on a preconcieved notion you have of something, and that is what Yoda does with the cave and Dagobah as a whole.

    My story has not changed once during this thread, I have always put forth the same theory, there is only one force and whatever you put into it is what it becomes.

    It's been firmly established in the EU and then furtherd on by Yoda in the movies that the Jedi as whole viewe Dagobah as a dark side planet, even Jedi that have never set foot on the planet view it as a dark side planet because of their preconcieved notion of the place. As for the dangerous animals, you missed the entire point. It's been established through the visuals in the movie and all accounts of Dagobah in written form that it is a planet full of feral and vicious animals, and those animals emit emotions such as hate and anger on a regular basis. That is why the dangerous animals would matter to Yoda, I never once implied that they would matter to him in a battle sense that was contrived all on your own. The emotions that they emit would affect the way that Yoda percieves the planet, so you combine their distorting of the force because of their emotions and Yoda's preconcieved notions of the planet and it's easy to see why he would label it as a dark side planet when that's not the case.

    Yo
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's one thing to have a belief, but there needs to be a reason to believe that the Force doesn't have a good or a bad side to it. Otherwise to me, it looks like another "Sidious has a spy camera in Artoo" and "Palpatine is a clone of Sidious" theory. Why is it hard to believe in a concept that has been in place since nearly the beginning?
  17. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    I've given more than ample reasoning for my belief, and there is ample reasoning to support it. There is no concrete evidence to support it, but this is true of any theory of the force. And no, something that Lucas wrote before the saga came out or after the movies were released does not count.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You're making that up. Your "argument" relies on fabrications. What EU? What is your reference? Yoda never says in the film that the entirety of Dagobah is dark side. No EU I have ever encountered said anything about the Jedi having preconceived notions of Dagobah. They probably thought it was very muddy and devoid of advanced sentient life. That's about it.

    Just like on Coruscant... or Tatooine... or Corellia... etc. Any planet has people, aliens and beasts that feel all kinds of emotions on a regular basis. Thus every single planet or asteroid in the galaxy would by this scheme be labeled as dark side. So the entire galaxy would be a "dark side place", thus making the distinction absolutely meaningless. You didn't address this point.

    Let's see:
    Yoda goes to Dagobah. He sees a cave. He has a "preconceived notion" that there is a dark side to the Force, simply because that is the ideology of the group which he represents. He decides that the cave is evil, because to do otherwise would throw his preconceived beliefs into question. Insecure and dishonest. In fact, the cave is not evil, but Yoda has decided that it is, and therefore it becomes evil to his perception. Thus Yoda's perception is entirely dependent on his "preconceived beliefs" and not on the Living Force or empirical evidence. That is dishonest. He then goes on for 23 years professing that the cave is "evil", even though there is no evidence that it is.

    Childish mental patient.

    I find it humorous that you don't seem to think projection involves lying. Projection itself is a lie.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The films never explain the dark side tree cave. But the eu does. There was no dark side on Dagobah until Yoda killed a rogue Jedi there, during the Clone Wars era. When he did, the death of the Dark Jedi left an imprint of dark side energy there. Ergo, when Yoda chooses to live there, he does so because the dark and the light from Yoda himself will result in the Sith not finding him, should they stumble across the planet and look to the Force to see if there are any Jedi. All other dark side hot spots in the eu are the result of the Sith and their acolytes living and dying where they did. It's the same way with Maul's ship, the Scimitar, which is filled with Maul's evil presence and the spot where he died, would be filled with it as well. Just as the spot where Vader was burned has the taint of evil, though Anakin died as a good man.

    The thing is that what Lucas wrote makes it's way into the films. In 75, Lucas created the Force as a power divided in two aspects. That has carried on into all six films and all the eu material, along with all the interviews and commentary. You haven't proven anything other than you don't want to believe that the Force has two sides to it and that the Force is the equivlant of religion. That it is an amalgam of all religions and concepts of good and evil. All the representations of G-d and the devil and that unlike the real world where all there is is faith, in Star Wars, it is a reality.
  20. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 4
    In any number of books Dagobah is presented that way, the only time it is presented in NJO it is presented that way. To name just another example it is also referred to as being a planet rife with dark energy in TSW.

    No, other planets are always presented as having some kind of balance, whereas Dagobah is presented as being clustered full of various creatures that are full of the dark side. That mush is obvious from the way the planet is talked about and the way in which it is filmed, if you can't see that then I don't know what to say.

    I find it humerous that you keep on making up statements that I have made or ideas that I have espoused when I have not done so. As for your Yoda as childish mental patient, it is still a ludicrous notion with no merit behind it so there is still no need to address it.
  21. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
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    star 4
    This would all fall into the Jedi and the Sith twisting the force though. The "dark side" that they leave behind is only a result of what they put into the force, if they had not turned the force into whatever they wanted it to be then they would not leave behind a dark feeling in the force, that is all on them and what they put into the force.

    It is not a reality in SW unless it is explicitly stated as such in-universe, and it never is. Lucas can give as many interviews as he wants beforehand where he espouses on what he wants the force to be but unless he explicitly states as such in the movie it is open to interpetation.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It is in the films. There is the light and there is the dark. Two sides to the Force. You just refuse to accept that. It's not the Jedi and Sith twisting things, it is a fact of the films.
  23. PerfectCell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
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    star 4
    It is never shown in the films that that is the case. It is shown in the films that two groups believe in a light and a dark side, but it is never shown what the forces true nature is, nor is it ever shown whether or not those two groups are right, you refuse to accept this.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
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    It is shown on Dagobah. There's no reason to prove or disprove of the concept, at all. What reason is there?
  25. PerfectCell Jedi Master

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    It is shown on Dagobah that the idea of two sides, or an external force, is most likely in err. Yoda flat out tells Luke that the cave will only be what he takes into it with him. The cave by itself is fine, but Luke takes his fear, anger, and hatred into the cave and he in turn recieves back from the force what he is putting into it. His internal drive is what causes the force to manifest in the way it does on Dagobah, not some external drive.
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