"Will of the force". What does this mean?

Why is it in err? What sense does that make? Dagobah is teeming with life, which is a big part of the Force. However, there is also the dark. The place where evil grows and thrives. It's in dark shadows, underground which is often a representation of hell or the underworld in lore. Luke is taking his first steps into the abyss which is the same abyss his father fell into years ago.


You're half right. Yoda tells Luke that he doesn't need his weapons. Just himself. The cave isn't fine, it's evil. It's the manifestation of the dark side of the Force. He is going in there to see what his destiny holds for him, though he doesn't know that. He's not projecting, he's sensing the Force itself and he senses the evil coming from there. He feels cold and death. By taking his weapons in there, he will fail because he will rely on his emotion. But even without his weapons, he will still have a vision. By not taking them, he will pass. This is a warning from the Force that he will fail if he goes up against his father now. Just as Anakin's dreams of Padme's death are a warning of what will happen if he continues to seek out power. Just as Anakin's visions of her death keep changing, because while the event is still the same, the details are different. First Obi-wan is not there, then he is, but he has his robe on. When that event comes to pass, Obi-wan is not wearing his robe at all.

 

True, Dagobah is teeming with life, and a lot of that life will be ripe with emotions like hatred, fear, and anger as I pointed out earlier. However just because they have those emotions that does not mean they are of the dark side, but the Jedi automatically associate those emotions with the dark side. That is why it shows that the duality viewpoint is in err, because instead of realizing that the force does not share those emotions and the animals are the ones pouring them into the force the Jedi view the cave as naturally dark side when tht is not the case. The Jedi always look externally, when they should be looking internally instead.

Luke goes into that cave and he doesn't sense the dark side of the force, he senses the feelings that are inside himself and that is what he percieves to be the dark side. In actuality it is not the dark side at all, but his own feelinsg that he can't handle.

 

The Jedi look within and without. They always have. Fear, anger and hate is the dark side. In both real life and in Star Wars. They are the misuse of emotions. Just as love, compassion and serenity is the light. This is why the Force has two sides, because they exist in all things. These things must always balance each other, but when there is too much of one and not enough of the other, it causes an imbalance. That is why in ROTS, which has the title crawl that you cannot dispute, says that there is evil everywhere. There is much fear, anger and hate and the motives of the many center around greed. There's very little love, compassion and serentiy, as well as selflessness in the galaxy. That's why in ROTJ things turn around. Compassionate love saves Vader from the dark side. And it is selflessness that motivates everyone in the Alliance into fighting at Endor, which in turn results in victory and serenity.

 

Fear, anger, and hate are not of the dark side, either in the GFFA or in real life. All three can be used in both a positive and a negative. The negative use is what is wrong, but all three can be used for good in a positive way and they have quite frequently throughout history. Of course there is evil everywhere at the beginning of ROTS, a war is going on. However that evil is a result of the negative usage of the three emotions in question, not the positive usage. That is why the Jedi do not look internally and look extrenally, instead of looking at where the emotion comes from and why it is being used they just look at the blanket concept of the emotion, and label something according to that external view while ignoring the internal view.

 

Yoda knows the Force from his own training and from what Qui-gon has taught him. Qui-gon is a part of the Force and speaking to him the will of the Force. Thus when Yoda trains Luke, there is nothing different from before. Fear, anger and hate is the dark side as much internally as they are externally. Fear, anger and hate can never be used positively. They only bred more fear, anger and hate.

 

That's a very incorrect viewpoint, those emotions can be used quite positively for good, that has been shown time and again throughout the history of mankind. Yoda himself showed that he learned nothing from Qui-Gion and his teachings, because as I told you in our earlier conversation about this, he was still stuck in the dogmatic teachings of the old Republic Jedi in the OT. Nothing that Qui-Gon told him changed the way that he taught, viewed the force, or thought of the Jedi.

 

That's ridiculous. And I doubt very much that EU suggests it is a dark side planet.
It's a swamp. It would be talked about like any other swamp.

This nonsense is just an attempt to patch up the logical hole in your position.

 

The EU does present it as a dark side planet, much the same way that any Sith that even refers to Lehon speaks of it as a dark side planet.

As I already stated, there are different versions of projections, some entail emotions that you feel and project onto other people or other things, and that could be construed as a form of lying. However as I explained earlier another form of projection is one that goes off of your preconcieved notions of a place, and in that one you are not lying at all, rather you are simply stating things as you believe them from your point of view, and that is what I have said about Yoda from the beginning. Nice try though, you can keep on trying to make it look like I'm calling Yoda a liar, but as I've said from the beginning, he's not.

 

You have chosen to believe this simply because I said that Lucas' own words have relevance. That's not the same as the LFL "canon policy", which I have never advocated.

 

"It is beneath me to answer that."

That's what someone says when they have no answer!

Your assumption of the Potentium theory makes the entire Jedi Order into a collection of immature, dishonest know-nothings who dwell in a fictive mental reality of their own creation.
"That cave is evil because I want it to be." ( sticks tongue out ) "Nyaah! Nyaah!"
That's your opinion of them. It is canonically wrong. You just don't get what the Jedi are in the GFFA.

 

If that's not the case then I apologize for assuming as such. But, if that is not the case then what is your reason for the statement you made, since the novelizations are usually very high in someone's personal canon no matter how they may structure it?

 

Novelizations are high, but they are not higher than the films. If the books contradict the films, the films win out every time. It's true of all expanded universe material, from all sources. The only thing Star Wars benefits from is that Lucas takes a vauge interest in it, whereas Star Trek and others like it don't. He allows Star Wars to be branded as the official continuation beyond the films, but they still have to answer to him.

Anyway, what harm is there in the Force having an external aspect? What harm is there in the Force being balanced because good and evil are on equal footing again, as a result of the death of the Sith? What harm is there if the Force has a will that helps to shape events?

 

No, if i thought it was actually a point that had merit and deserved to be answered I would answer it just like I have every other point in this thread, but that point is without merit and does not deserve an answer.

LFL and their idiotic levels of canon don't matter to me one bit, unless a story is an infinites story it is canon, and the EU is on the same level as the films. This is not something that I will ever change my mind on, so don't bother trying to show me why you think I should think differently.

I never said there was any harm in the Jedi's view of the force, it is a perfectly valid theory, I just happen to subscribe to a different theory and I believe that to be the correct one.

 

But why is it "without merit"?

What's the big secret? It doesn't look like you have an answer.

To you, the Jedi have no interest in honest perception of the world around them. They see what they want to see, and that's that. Except that's not the story. You don't seem to be able to handle that the Jedi are better than that.
I suppose nobody's allowed to be better than anyone else.

 

Can you really use the novelization as evidence that there is no dark side, when the novelization's stance is that there is a dark side?

 

I never once said that, and that is why it has no merit. I never said the Jedi see the world around them only as they want to see it, but they do go off of preconcieved notions a lot based on the way that they view the force. There is a world of difference between having no interest in an honest perception of the world around you, what you are accusing me of, and having a perception of the world around you based on your beliefs, what I have said all along.

 

You're not getting the point.

They would have accumulated evidence that did not fit those preconceived notions. At some point the scientific method would say: throw out existing theory. And then you have them ignoring said evidence and chugging onward with said preconceived notions.

Yoda did not land on Dagobah in Sith mode. There would have been no reason a Force-neutral cave would have registered as dark, even if it were feeding off his emotions. So any honest attempt to determine what was going on would have registered no dark side. You have him blowing this off because it doesn't fit with what you assume he was told about the planet, and going on for 23 years assuming it's a dark side cave, simply because that's what his fellow Jedi supposedly believed, and they can't be wrong, can they. This "portrayal" of Yoda and the Order is a sick travesty.

 

I went and checked the actual reference in the novel. It's not as you describe above.

Obi-Wan says they don't know everything about the Force. The rest of his comments are about not fully understanding the will of the Force. He never says or implies anything on the level of "they have no idea how it actually works or what its true nature is".

 

Why is it idiotic? Because then it'd shoot down your beliefs? These levels exist in all expanded universes based on films and television series, because the creators don't want someone stepping on their toes. Telling the stories that they might tell or contradicting their work. There's also the fact that not every single person is going to read all this stuff, in order to understand the story. Odds are they're more inclined to listen to the commentary on the DVD, than read a book.

For your beliefs. But the facts are what they are. There's no disputing them no matter how hard you try, just because you don't like them.

 

I think it's on the OS, EU part, Yoda supposively killed a darkside Jedi or two on Degobah, and the spirit of that angry-Jedi haunts Yoda's tree-cave and hides Yoda's force presence from the Emperor. I like it, but it's definitely not canon though.

 

Timothy Zahn came up with that in TTT. It's considered EU canon.

 

Yes, and IIRC the cave was a "nexus of darkside" energy.

 

I knew I'd get nailed with the "well, duh"

Still, it seems like a perfect example of fate / will of the force / etc. Yoda obviously never thought, "Ah Degobah, a perfect hideout from the Sith!" when he killed the darkside Jedi almost 1000 years ago, but it worked out for him quite well.

 

The only negative portrayal of Yoda and the Order going on has been the one you are creating in your own head. There are a lot of people that believe certain things because of the philosophy that they have attached themselves to, the Jedi are no different. They are perfectly justified in seeing things the way they do because there is just as much evidence to support their theory as there is mine, and that is why not once have I labeled them as being liars or mental, that has all been of your own doing.

No idea is just another way of saying not fully understanding or not knowing everything. Really, this is just incredibly nit picky, even for you. It's quite obvious what I was going for the moment that I made that post, and even if my wording was off the end result is still the same.

It's idiotic because of how restrictive and mind numbing of a concept it is. If something happens in-universe it is canon, that's all there is to it. Don't even bother trying to continue this thread, because unlike all kinds of other issues, the stupidity of LFL's canon policy is not something I will budge on.

There are no facts at all, you have yet to present hard concrete facts to support the duality theory. There are interviews from Lucas, but those are from an out of universe perspective so they don't count. There aren't any hard facts to support any theory of the force, and no matter how much you may not want to this to not be the case it is a realization you need to come to.