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Full Series Will the real "New Hope" please stand up! Ezra & Luke discussion.

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Darth Downunder, Oct 16, 2014.

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  1. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    This has been an ongoing discussion which was a bit off topic in some other threads. Since it will be a continuing & evolving topic as the series unfolds I thought it was deserving of its own thread.

    The basic points are:

    - In Ezra Rebels has introduced a new Force sensitive kid into the story only 5 years prior to Episode IV: A New Hope.

    - In the early episodes Ezra has been portrayed as a powerful young prospect, & that's before he has undertaken any training.

    - He is the same age as Luke & an argument can be made that he displays more Force sensitivity at 14 than Luke does 5 years later at the age of 19.

    What questions does this raise in terms of the overall story? Should Ezra have gained the attention of Yoda & Obi-Wan? Or Palpatine or Vader? Will he before the series is done?
    Or will he prove not to be that special after all? Does he have any significance or affect on Luke's position as the "New Hope" ?
     
  2. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Excuse the double post but I'm replying to this from another thread...

    No doubt a large part of Luke's significance was that he's Vader's son. It's debatable but I think Yoda & Ben thought the reason for this significance was the physical threat. Ben discouraged Luke from even bothering to try to turn Vader back. He & Yoda seemed to want Luke to "defeat" & destroy Vader & the Emperor. Unless they were playing some kind of psychological game on him they had little interest in having Luke appeal to Vader's emotions.

    But even if this were the case, surely a young & powerful Jedi prodigy would be highly valued & significant. If brought into the fold he could be a partner & "right hand Jedi" to Luke in a few years. It all comes down to how powerful Ezra is. It's early days, but as I've said he is shown to be able to use telekinesis on things like holocrons, complete huge Force assisted leaps through the air, & even Force push an Imperial out of the way. All at the age of 14 & before he's had any training! All Luke could probably do at that age was bullseye a womprat.

    That's interesting. Just what was the "main plan" of Yoda & Obi-Wan? Was it all about Luke? Did they definitely see him becoming a Jedi & taking on the Sith? I'm not so sure. I'd say Ben hoped this would be the case, however he didn't seem to be actively encouraging or engaging with Luke to this end. It seems Luke hardly ever saw Old Ben. As for Yoda, he was against the idea of even training Luke & had to be talked into it.

    I agree that Luke becoming the new hope was something in their thoughts & that's part of why Yoda looked over him from afar. But it's also clear that for various reasons they would be far from certain that this would actually eventuate & that Luke would work out. Definitely in the years prior to ANH I can't see how they'd be so confident in Luke that they'd put all of their eggs in his basket (unless there were no other options).

    This is a tricky area. It's fair to say Yoda & Obi-Wan can't telepathically speak to all Jedi like some kind of metaphysical conference call. Therefore the message from the temple was needed. But we do know that they can sense each other, watch over others from afar & sense strong "ripples" in the Force. I think that if an exceptionally powerful young Force user emerged they would know about it. This does require some assumption though.

    We're told Luke was the last Jedi after Yoda dies. At the time of the OT Leia only had Force potential. She was "another" who had that potential. Her taking on Vader & Palpatine would be like Luke doing so straight out of the farm from Tatooine. Because there were others with potential doesn't contradict the fact that Luke was the last Jedi at the close of the OT. That could be retconned of course but it hasn't been yet.
    That actually feeds into the earlier points. Yoda definitively saying that Luke will be the last Jedi implies that Yoda is indeed aware of other Jedi, or lack thereof. You could say Yoda was just guessing but that's doubtful. I think that's something we should take at face value until it's specifically retconned.
     
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  3. ayures

    ayures Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 24, 2014
    The kid with the purple squid hair is not the new hope. That makes about as much sense as Ahsoka being the chosen one.
     
  4. jcgoble3

    jcgoble3 Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 7, 2010
    To be fair, Luke at that age hadn't really had a reason to need the Force, other than bulls-eying womp rats in Beggar's Canyon which would naturally develop his reflexes. So he has no reason to learn about and develop other Force abilities until Old Ben clues him in.

    Ezra, on the other hand, has been living on his own since he was 7* and stealing to survive, which would imply a lot of escaping from stormtroopers and the like. With a lifestyle like that, it's not unreasonable that he would need a boost from the Force occasionally. Most of what we've seen from him thus far is Force leaping, which would be perfectly natural for a street thief that uses rooftops to escape. The incident in "Droids in Distress" with him Force-pushing Kallus was really an accident, as evidenced by his reaction, and shouldn't be considered here.

    So, Luke developed Force-enhanced reflexes before learning about the Force; Ezra developed the ability to make Force-enhanced jumps before learning about the Force. Each developed what their situation and lifestyle called for, and no more. Ezra only seems more powerful because his natural talent is more visible to the naked eye, but there's really not much of a difference in their respective Force abilities at the moment they each learn about the Force.

    *according to Star Wars Rebels: The Visual Guide
     
  5. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Of course he's not, but if he's shown to be increasingly powerful should he be a significant prospect in terms of the Jedi vs the Sith?

    Put it this way, imagine you recently started watching Star Wars. In chronological order you watched the PT & TCW & now just started Rebels. You've never heard of Luke Skywalker. Near the end of Spark of Rebellion Obi-Wan's holocron message speaks of a "new hope rising". This is in the context of just watching a show where this kid is discovered by one of the last remaining Jedi in hiding. He displays impressive Force sensitivity. Throughout the episode people keep saying "who is this kid!?". He's built up as someone pretty special. Eventually this kid agrees to come with the Jedi & essentially learn the ways of the Force & become a Jedi. Wouldn't you be making the link between Obi-Wan's "new hope" comment & Ezra? That's a common & basic storytelling device.

    Ezra's introduction & potential journey is a very interesting one in terms of the overall Saga. Clearly we know he doesn't become the new hope but why he doesn't at least become a prospect is a question that may need answering. The more powerful they show him to be the louder that question will become. On the other hand maybe he will be the first new hope for the Jedi & then gets killed. Maybe Luke becomes new hope v2.0.
     
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  6. jcgoble3

    jcgoble3 Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 7, 2010
    1. Qu Rahn
    2. Empatojayos Brand
    3. T'ra Saa
    4. K'Kruhk
    5. Ikrit
    Yes, these are Legends, but it only took me thirty seconds to find five Jedi that were members of the old Jedi Order and outlived Yoda. Hell, Yoda even knew about Qu Rahn. Just like Obi-Wan, Yoda's lying outta his little green butt.
     
  7. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Sorry but you've given yourself the perfect response by agreeing that these are legends characters. SW canon tells us via Yoda that Luke was the last of the Jedi. Until that's retconned in SW canon it's gospel.

    All good points. This isn't so much an Ezra vs Luke competition. It's the point that they were both teenage prodigies with high Force potential. One of them becomes the great new hope, one doesn't. That Ezra has been introduced, at the same age as Luke & set just before ANH raises some interesting questions.

    By the way, this is in no way a criticism of the show or the character of Ezra. I'm just a bit surprised they're building up a story of another young Force prodigy in this time period. Its a fascinating & possibly bold decision.
     
  8. ayures

    ayures Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 24, 2014
    And then he turns out to not be the new hope at all. Something disappointing to the good guys during the dark times. Hardly out of place.
     
  9. jcgoble3

    jcgoble3 Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 7, 2010
    The point I was making is that Legends showed that the "last Jedi" statement was false multiple times over, so there's no reason NuCanon can't do the same. In other words, take Yoda's statement with a grain of salt. Luke doesn't strictly have to be the absolute last Jedi, no matter what Yoda said.

    On this point I agree with you. It is quite surprising that another teenage prodigy would be used here. I was simply making a counterpoint to the specific portion of your post that I quoted. Otherwise, you make excellent points.
     
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  10. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Agreed. It will be interesting to see if that's how it plays out. Will he be thought of by Kanan as a new hope who can one day take on the Sith? I mean why train him at all unless you think he could make a difference?
     
  11. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    There is an element of Galen Marek in Ezra; somebody with a stronger natural connection to the Force than Anakin or Luke. I've been watching the weekly Rebels discussion on StarWars.com and the presenter is implying most fans are asking the same question: why is Ezra *that* strong in the Force?

    Yet, the production team have never answered that question. Yet. It's not a "mistake" or ignoring the fact Anakin is meant to have the strongest Force potential of all time; Filoni has deliberately made Ezra strong.

    So, naturally, the question is why? what is the big secret behind Ezra?

    Two theories:

    1) He is another Skywalker. This was one of the original ideas for TFU.
    2) Ezra is secret clone experiment of the Empire.

    Point 1) is probably not likely; Filoni has spoken how Rebels is designed to move Star Wars away from the traditional characters and build a new generation of heroes and villains. Ezra being another Skywalker is probably unlikely.

    But, point 2), the clone theory is worth exploring. Ezra real mission could be "the enemy within" and unknowingly helping to uncover the remaining hidden Jedi. Or, unknown to Vader, the Emperor could be secretly cloning Anakin.
     
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  12. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    There's no reason Luke being the last Jedi can't be changed...of course not. There's no reason plenty of things can't be changed & retconned. But that's no reason to doubt them. Until they are changed we have to evaluate based on the current facts. Otherwise we'll end up questioning everything & going around in circles. Yoda says Luke is the last Jedi & nothing in SW canon contradicts this. So that's that, at least for now.

    IMO theory 1 is looney tunes, as you've basically agreed. Theory 2 is far more likely but still doubtful. The one thing I'll say in support of it is that they've done the old "no parents, no background, mystery origin" deal with Ezra. Completely ignored his backstory. So I do agree there's scope for something fishy going on in terms of his origins.

    I do wonder whether Kanan knows about the Sith. Does he know about Sidious? Anakin/Vader? After training Ezra will he consider trying to eliminate Vader with him?

    This actually brings me to a gripe I have with Kenobi's holocron message. Loved that scene, but it's ridiculous that he doesn't mention the Sith once. It's supposed to be a warning to all Jedi. Wouldn't the return of the mortal enemy of the Jedi be a fairly relevant bit of info to pass on? & the fact that the Emperor is a Sith Lord?? Would be handy information. Instead he only talks about the "dark shadow of the Empire". Thought that was very strange. Will be interesting to see if Kanan knows about the Sith & Palpatine given Obi-Wan's strange omission.
     
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  13. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Probably is aware of the Sith, from his education at the Jedi Temple, but has no idea of Yoda and Obi-wan's plan to defeat Vader and Sidious

    Great point, which has been discussed a few times on this board. How come Obi-wan never told them the Emperor was the Sith Lord? Huge plot hole. I'm guessing Kanan has no idea that Emperor Palpatine is Darth Sidious. TCW dropped several hints that only the Council, Anakin and Obi-wan were aware of the name Darth Sidious.

    Only towards the end of TCW did the Jedi realise Dooku and Darth Tryanus were the same person.
     
  14. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Interesting question, Downunder. I think the answer however is this: This is a cartoon. Everything is exaggerated, not just force powers, also jumps, acrobatics and physical prowess. Zeb easily throws crates around that probably weigh as much as himself.
    The force powers displayed shouldn't be directly compared to movies made in a different style, imo. Maybe when Vader and/or the Emperor turn up, they will throw entire starships around, which they couldn't do in the movies.
     
  15. Lady_Misty

    Lady_Misty Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 21, 2007
    It appears from the previews/trailers that Kanan didn't get a lot of training so it's almost like the blind leading the blind. So Ezra I don't see becoming a real threat to the Empire and if they kill Kanan (which I think should happen) and Ezra could be left with his basic training. And even if Kanan doesn't die he doesn't have the full training; he tells Ezra 'do or do not there is no try' when Ezra asks what that means Kanan confesses that it confuses him as well.

    Luke received training and knowledge from Obi-Wan and Yoda. And Luke proved that he knew how to use it. His only mistake you could say is facing Vader and the Emperor with plans of returning his father the Light.
     
  16. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    True, but Rebels is canon. It has to be compared to the movies.

    Also, I don't think (if they appear) Vader and Emperor will throw around ships like toys because it will lead to one question: if their that powerful, how come they were defeated in RoTJ?
     
  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Pragmatic as ever, Pevra ;)
    The idea behind this "one canon" business is supposed to be consistency though. I still think these are questions that the show needs to address. Not so much the exaggerated powers but the significance of Ezra & possibly Kanan.

    Well Luke received very brief & limited training from Kenobi & Yoda. He also didn't start until he was 19. Ezra may get daily training that lasts for years. Despite Kanan being no Yoda he can surely guide the kid & help him unlock most of his potential.
    The other point was should Ezra be detected & draw the interest of Yoda, Ben or even Palpatine?
     
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  18. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
  19. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

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    May 14, 2013
    Filoni breaks it down like this: Even though the Empire has taken over, that doesn't stop force-sensitive children like Ezra from being born. And even though there are surviving Jedi like Kanan in the Galaxy, none of those Jedi would have any hope of accomplishing what Luke does at the end of Return of the Jedi. The story of Kanan and Ezra is simply a window into what inevitably happens when a force-orphan meets a Jedi on the run.
     
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  20. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    *IF* he grew powerful enough, there is no doubt Ezra would create a disturbance in the Force.
     
  21. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    It says nowhere that they have to be compared in a completely literal manner. For instance Dave Filoni just stated recently that they changed the lightsaber design compared to that of TCW. So which representation of lightsabers is now the "real" one? Answer: the one you like best. Cartoon or book or comic book or movie all follow different rules. What works in one medium probably wouldn't in another (example cartoon jumps). That's why, no matter what the story group says, you have to view all of these displayed skills through the lense of context. It's like with the old CW cartoons. The powers shown there didn't line up with the movies either.

    Thanks. :)
    I think you got a point there. Many people are gonna wonder why Ezra can't be the new hope and you can't leave them without a fulfilling answer.
     
  22. Kraven Head

    Kraven Head Jedi Knight star 1

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    Nov 5, 2012
    Doubtful anyone is more naturally connected to the force than Anakin, Luke and Leia in tow riding shotgun as second in line.
     
  23. jcgoble3

    jcgoble3 Chosen One star 6

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    Nov 7, 2010
    True. I'm just saying to keep an open mind and don't assume that nothing can ever contradict it, because when you assume, you make an... :)

    Star Wars Rebels: The Visual Guide explicitly names both of his parents (Mira and Ephraim), and says that they disappeared when Ezra was 7. So he does have parents and a little bit of backstory.

    Excellent point. To play devil's advocate, perhaps the message was recorded while resetting the "come home" beacon, which is before Obi-Wan saw the security hologram. So perhaps at the time of recording it, he didn't yet know who the Sith Lord was, and couldn't go back after finding out.
     
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  24. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    I'm thinking one, if not both, were/are Imperial Officers.
     
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  25. TheSilentInfluence

    TheSilentInfluence Retired Manager star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 15, 2014
    I like this idea. It would be an interesting background. I wonder if they were say, Imperial Officers; they just went and left him on his own when they noticed he was showing signs of force sensitivity and didn't want him to become a victim of the Empire or something.
     
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