Full Series Will the real "New Hope" please stand up! Ezra & Luke discussion.

Yeah, I don't think Vader is going to show Ahsoka any mercy.

 

I would argue that Luke is training during the Rebels period by "bullseying womprats" as it is this ability to hit a small target that he perfected on Tatooine that helps him eventually take down the Death Star.

Luke will be on Rebels in Season 7 which will be after AHN and he will be instructed by Ahsoka who will live and teach Luke telekenesis which is why we see Luke Force pull his lightsaber in the Wampa's Ice Cave.

 

I don't think Rebels will make season 7

 

There's an inconsistency in depiction here definitely. Because Vader could no doubt school Ezra in a fight right now. Ezra might be able to dance around stormtroopers, but he's no match for Vader. Meanwhile Luke dominated his fight (or what little fight there was) with Vader in ROTJ. Yet earlier in that same film he gets shot in the hand by one of Jabba's guards and narrowly survives the Rancor. But Ezra can control large beasts and dance around blaster bolts like they are no threat.

The show has created this awkward scale where at one end you have Vader which is an unstoppable power house to Ezra, and on the other end you have the stormtroopers/blaster wielding opponents that pose NO threat.

Whereas with Luke, Jabba's lackeys DID pose a threat, but Vader was no longer UNSTOPPABLE.

But it's not just Ezra. Sabine can dance around the stormtroopers too.

Make the henchmen in Rebels not completely worthless, scale up their credibility as threats, and this issue gets resolved.

Because right now, Luke can handle Vader but has more difficulty with blaster wielding opponents, while Ezra can handle the latter effortlessly, but is no match for the former.

 

But he can't survive Rebels in his current form.

He either needs to fall to the dark side (and with it giving up on the Jedi and Rebellion Path). A non-Imperial dark sider in the OT era would be an interesting path.

Or stay a good guy, but still give up on the path of the Jedi and being part of the Rebellion.

There has to be a reason why Luke never hears about some guy his age that also wields a blue lightsaber. That also means that if he survives into the OT as a dark jedi or simply a good ex-Jedi, he should not be put into stories in which he encounters OT era Rebels and they see his lightsaber and also survive their encounter with him.

The easiest solution to all of this would just be to kill him of pre-ANH or just to have him have no contact at all with the Rebellion during the OT.

I really hope they that if Ezra does survive Rebels, they don't take the stupid path of stories of him teaming up with OT era heroes.

Maybe they should just destroy his lightsaber eventually and he never builds a new one. That could help him keep himself off the "radar" if he is still breathing in the OT era.

 

I can't imagine him being killed, and I can't imagine him turning to the Dark Side.

It would just be a really ballsy move to kill him off, since he's like the character whose journey the audience is supposed to relate with. Kind of like how Luke was in the OT.

And I just can't see him being a mini-Vader.

I figure they will either exploit some loophole and leave him a Jedi and go the whole "the Galaxy is so big, he may never have crossed paths with the heroes from the OT" route (cop out, IMO)

Or I figure he will walk away from the Jedi. Perhaps not in the same way as Ahsoka though. I don't see him feeling betrayed by the Jedi or anything like that. But there would be a way for him to see that there is a darkness within him and that it is a threat should he succumb to it, and thus deciding to walk away from the Jedi path because of the danger it could pose to those around him in the future, should he fall.

 

But I don't want to see Ezra follow a path similar to Luke, and if they killed Ezra off in Rebels, it would represent the context of the era of the dark times while pushing that Ezra is not the new hope for the galaxy.

Luke is the "New Hope" and represents the "Return of the Jedi", the man who is going to not be killed off young, but live to be old. A man who is supposed to pass on his knowledge about the Jedi to create a new generation of Jedi Knights.

This is a path that Ezra should not be apart of. I don't want them to further Lukify him and have him live to be old and even help Luke with a future new jedi order.

Yes Ezra's journey shares similarities with Luke, but I believe this should further diverge with the death of Ezra, whether it be in the dark times or the OT era.

 

That's what should happen. Can't see Disney going there in a children's cartoon.

The key factor you're leaving out is that Vader was emotionally compromised when facing Luke, particularly in RotJ. That scene of him turning from Luke & looking out from the gantry on Endor said it all. From there he was never going to be in full Vader rage mode. Vader gets his power from his anger & hate. That was severely diminished when facing Luke, which was the whole point of the story & we all know the end result of his building emotional conflict. This is why we never saw Vader in full flight in the OT. Actually I believe we did, for just 3 seconds. In ESB when Luke gets through his defenses & strikes his arm. His reaction was the one instance of pure rage. That's the Vader that regular opponents that he didn't care about would have faced. That's why Ezra, Kanan & virtually everyone else stand no chance against him. In ANH he was just toying with old Ben, insulting him until he felt inclined to finish him. In ESB he was trying to recruit Luke & in RotJ he was a badly conflicted. That's why I want to see Vader in a spinoff. We've still never seen him display his full ability on the big screen.

 

All I know is that in ROTJ, Palpatine tells Vader that Luke has grown strong (since ESB) and that only together can they turn him. Vader didn't want to kill Luke, but he didn't want to kill Luke in ESB either, yet still dominated that fight except for that strike on Vader's arm. Yoda tells Luke that he requires no further training and must confront Vader.

There's nothing to really compare Luke against to know how he ranks compared to other characters. But in ROTJ itself, dialogue seems to indicate that he had grown stronger in the year following ESB and that Yoda felt he required no further training. Could Vader also have been gimped due to emotional turmoil? Sure. But that's difficult to say. All we can use as comparison is Vader's fight with Ezra and Kanan, or his fight with Obi-Wan. He dominated the first fight, and the other had Obi-Wan able to keep up with Vader until voluntarily sacrificing himself. And you would think that Vader would be just about at his angriest for that confrontation.

 

Well we're left to speculate about some of that. My take is that Vader knew Obi-Wan was a somewhat weakened old man. He was just toying with him & throwing insults his way. If Ben had not sacrificed himself Vader would've cut him down when he got tired of mocking him. That's the only conclusion I can accept when we see Vader's ability in the rest of the OT & Rebels. Like I said, we still haven't seen Vader unleash in a movie against an opponent where he didn't have an agenda or wasn't conflicted in his feelings.

 

I didn't really see it as Kenobi 'keeping up', more Vader wanting to gloat about just how much more powerful he was now.

 

In the old Death Star novel, the duel was pretty much explained like that; Obi-Wan was so weak, that Vader felt he didn't really need to try.

 

Well the S2 finale was significant with regards to this thread. If Ezra is on a Dark Side path then that makes a very clear difference to Luke. Credit to the show if that's the case. It removes the question of why Ezra wasn't a more prominent figure on the side of the good guys. Given that he's exactly the same age as Luke & surely far more advanced at this point.

 

Isn't Vader (while powerful) just a crippled man in Life support suit and while more powerful than the common rung can never fulfill his potential but that Luke (and Leia) could.

There is the dialogue where Luke taunts Vader about his thoughts betraying him and he doesn't think he will kill him. To which later Vader admits Luke was right about him.

I agree Ezra should be dead by the end of the show. Though as stated he is the main character in a Disney cartoon. TBH I think the main cast as a whole is to large anyway and one or 2 need to go regardless.

It's funny but seeing the after show talk, even the voice actor wants him to go off with Maul.

 

That's what Lucas said a few years ago:

But according to the newcanon book Lords of the Sith - Vader's experience on Mustafar didn't weaken him - it made him stronger:

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

 

That seems more in Spirit and who he is as a person rather than actual power.

 

The phrase

a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left.

doesn't really gel with

His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force.

And, to quote Yoda "Size matters not". The notion that Force power depends on the amount of body a character has, was a bit odd in the context of plenty of cyborg Jedi and Sith.

Look at Maul - he's half the man he used to be - but that doesn't mean that his powers are weaker.

 

Yeah, injuries seem not to weaken Force connection under the new canon.

In Rebels, Vader has lifted two AT-ST off himself and used the Force to control a tie-fighter, whilst standing on top - then jumped off it from a considerable height. Does even crazier stuff in the new comics. So Lucas's "he's crippled and weak" argument has been thrown out by Disney.

 

Back to this topic, anyone else concerned that Ezra is getting too powerful? Remembering that he & Luke are exactly the same age. At this point in time Luke could bullseye a womp-rat, on a good day. Ezra has roughly the ability of Luke in RotJ! Even more ability in some areas. Yet it's Luke who is the next great hope.
The more powerful they show Ezra to be the less credible it is IMO that he shouldn't be a HUGE deal that attracts the attention of Obi-Wan & Yoda. Someone they plan the restoration of the galaxy on.

 

Luke was mostly untrained when he held his own against Vader his first time, and had learned just the basics from Yoda and Obi-Wan. Keep in mind, save for the bit he spent with Yoda, Luke was mostly a self taught Jedi, but was very high on the natural talent side. Ezra is what you get from a mid level talented Jedi who has had about a year of full training every day. If Luke had been training for as long as Ezra has, I'm sure he would be exceptional in his level of power.

 

Hmm except Ezra showed impressive abilities early in season one after very little training. Point is if things keep tracking at the same rate, in another 3 years Ezra is going to be one of the most powerful Force users we've seen. Luke will be the same age & will just be leaving Tatooine & trying to defend against a remote. Pretty bizarre situation.

 

Luke did not have much training in the movies and was mostly self taught.

 

The point isn't to ask "who's better?", it's wondering why Ezra isn't seen as the new great hope for the good side. For Yoda, Kenobi etc. He's incredibly powerful for someone with a year's training. Imagine him in another 3 years (the time of ANH). In addition Ezra is being shown to be mixing with core members of the Rebellion. They're seeing his abilities. Therefore Luke shouldn't be any big deal when he comes along. They just recently had a Jedi apprentice who was even more capable in their ranks. The whole Ezra arc creates some curious & possibly awkward questions. I'm beginning to think Rebels would've been better if the crew featured no Jedi. This would've better preserved the significance of Luke's emergence. The Dark Times in between the Jedi purge & ANH should feature no Jedi at all apart from the two in hiding. Unfortunately the creators wanted lightsaber action to make the show more marketable.

 

Luke is a Skywalker so he is naturally talented with the force