Full Series Will the real "New Hope" please stand up! Ezra & Luke discussion.

Not exactly. I'm saying that if there's a question that's not addressed on screen (like "was Vader's eventual Force potential reduced by his injuries?") then that is something that's open to debate & speculation. However, when the author/creator specifically comes out & provides an answer to that question, then that's the end of the matter. He's not just some fan, he's the storyteller who invented the character. I mean that's a reasonable & simple proposition isn't it? It seems very strange to say "no sorry George, I don't like your explanation. I'm going to pretend my theory is the actual one".
You also made the point that GL's opinion is only "no longer valid" to you bcs he sold the rights. So even though you don't like it, were you accepting of his explanation as canon only 2 years ago before the sale?
Finally, if one of the upcoming canon novels happens to mention that Vader can never be as strong in the Force as he eventually would've been as uninjured Anakin, will you run with that in your mind or still hold out & go with your own explanation?

 

If the author gives "background info" on something, it is still just commentary...

Only in discussions because you need a common frame of reference there. Since everyone else stuck to the canon, the only way to have debates was to stick to canon yourself. But now interviews are not part anymore of the common frame of reference.

Would be very surprising after Lords of the Sith stated the opposite.

 

You talk as if there are rules about such things. It comes down to personal choice. So you personally don't place any significance in what an author says about their characters unless they put it in print/on film? Seems like quite a rigid dogmatic view.

What does the novel say? I got the impression from the earlier part of this discussion that it merely said Vader was stronger in the Force than PT Anakin. That's not the issue. Lucas said Vader could never reach the limits of power that uninjured Anakin could've eventually reached. This is what you disagree with old George about. Does the novel address this?

 

You do agree that interviews aren't part of the actual film, right? It is up to the viewer if he or she incorporates them into his view of the fiction. I am as free to chose to ignore it as you are to accept it. But if we want to discuss SW, we still need some common ground and I think the current canon (which excludes interviews) works for that.

Spoiler

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it in ruin, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the force. Suffering had birthed insight.

Note how this segment concentrates on Vader's spirit, which is in line with Yoda's OT quotes about the force. There is no mention whatsoever of Midichlorians.

 

Yes I do agree. Like you said it comes down to personal choice, but we're talking about the storyteller giving extra detail into his story. However technically you're correct that GL's story insights haven't been classified as canon by the Story Group.

That's interesting but it doesn't refute what GL has said. GL's explanation & this line from the book aren't mutually exclusive positions. Vader could've had his connection to the Force strengthened in the short term AND had his absolute maximum future potential limited. This actually is consistent with what we know of the Dark Side. This means his extra hatred & stronger embrace of the DS due to what happened to him has given him power more quickly & easily. That makes perfect sense & I'm sure GL would give that a tick. Nevertheless, GL is saying if he'd not been sliced up his upper limit potential would've been far greater. This also makes sense bcs like it or not (I don't) midichlorians are part of the canon & are what provide Force strength.

Question, have you disregarded midichlorians in your head canon as well?

 

That's enough for me. Glad we reached a compromise.

Oh boy, that's really a stretch, don't you think? Vader clearly states that his connection to the force got strengthened. Connection to the force = force potential.

This was put on page 1 of the novel. That alone should tell us something.

I thought we just agreed that the interviews aren't canon. So why are you using them still? The only canon source at the moment states that Vader's connectedness to the force grew after his injuries. And that's that.

As far as I know, QG measured the midi concentration, not the total midi amount in Anakin's body. Those are completely different parameters. When Vader got his limbs cut off, the total amount of midis decreased, but the concentration in blood remained the same.

We also don't know whether the midi concentration can change in a liftetime or what it means for a Sith, who draws on the dark side and not the regular force.

But yes, in my head canon I tend to ignore the midis. They're just not important to me.

 

"Connection to the force = force potential". No. Connection to the Force is about now. Force potential is about the future. Yoda tells us that the Dark Side brings power more quickly & easily. This means there are short term gains to pursuing this path. Doesn't mean it provides more Force potential in the long term. Vader having a stronger connection to the Force shortly after Mustafar, when he was consumed by hatred & anger & had fully embraced the DS makes perfect sense. This doesn't address the relevant subject that Lucas commented on, which was the reduction of his future Force potential.

Piecing these things together, we can say that Vader in the short term received an increase in his Force "power" or "connection" by being so consumed by hatred & anger. I mean think of his screaming "I hate you" at Obi-Wan with glowing red eyes as he burned. What Lucas is saying however is that uninjured Anakin would have eventually achieved a power far greater than injured Vader ever could. You clearly don't accept that. That's fine but what I'm saying is these two scenarios (GL's comments & the line from the book) aren't contradictory & can comfortably co exist.

The reason we're talking about the book at all is that you raised it as a counterpoint to Lucas' comments. The point is to compare the two.
& I do consider his story insights canon as I'm sure the majority of fans do not to mention everyone at Lucasfilm. However since the Story Group haven't thought to release a press statement confirming this I've given up trying to make you see reason

There's not enough info about midi's & exactly how they work to have any kind of rational discussion about them.

 

I disagree. In the movies the connection to the force was always treated like force potential. The more connected to the force you are, the more impressive stuff you can do. If his connection is stronger than that of Anakin, it means he will be able to achieve more impressive force powers in the future. Thus he has more potential in the force than Anakin.

Why?

If I had to take an educated guess then because Anakin was a very flawed Jedi while Vader is pretty deep into the dark side. Anakin's emotions as a Jedi hindered him from achieving greatness.

 

Huh? Why are you talking about Anakin being a Jedi? Anakin was already Vader. He had turned to the Dark Side before his injuries. Lucas was saying that if Vader had not been injured he would've grown far more powerful than the Emperor. His condition prevented him from reaching this potential & that in part was the reason he remained Palpatine's servant for 20 years & why he needed to recruit Luke to outmatch the Emperor.

Where in the movies is "connection to the Force" specifically explained in those terms? That is your own interpretation, & it doesn't make sense. You're saying Force potential = Force power which is determined by the strength of the connection to the Force. At the same time you seem to be saying that this can change & develop over time, as with Anakin from the PT to post RotS. Also I assume you'd agree that Luke at the end of RotJ had a stronger connection to the Force than he did on the farm in ANH? So whether you call it potential/power/connection or whatever it's something that can increase or decrease over time for a variety of reasons. So what Lucas said is that uninjured Vader had a higher maximum upper limit of potential/power/connection than injured Vader could ever reach. Where's the confusion in this? The line from the novel is talking about Vader's potential/power/connection at that particular time. Lucas was talking about the eventual future limit. Two completely different things.

 

I admit I am confused. Maybe I mixed up some terms. I'll try to explain.

I thought the midichlorian concentration was a measurement for force connection. Your midi concentration determines how powerful you can become. Because through your midis, you can access the force (aka connect to it). Check.

Vader got his limbs cut off, but that doesn't influence midi concentration.

It is outright stated that his connection is strengthened (aka his access to the force) rather than weakened. So either his midis multiplied or whatever or they grew stronger.

But Lucas states that because Vader has so many machine parts, his force potential and connection is weakened. How does this all fit together?

 

Firstly, it's not established that midi concentration is the key factor. Yes in TPM they do seem to measure the midi concentration in a blood sample. But that's likely to be as an indicator of how many midi's someone has overall. That's often the way with blood tests in the real world: how much volume of something in a blood sample is used as an indicator. Obi-Wan then talks about Anakin & Yoda's "midichlorian count". That presumably refers to either the total count or the sample concentration which indicates the total count. In fact that's what Lucas has essentially confirmed by saying that Vader losing 30% of his body + other internal injuries reduces his ultimate Force potential. The inference here is that he lost 30% of his midi's. That makes sense since young Anakin's midi's are present in the blood sample taken from his arm. So clearly if you hack off that arm he loses those midi's. It's all nonsense & I do wish midi's were never introduced but they were.

This is the most relevant quote, given by Lucas in the Empire of Dreams documentary: "However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Skywalker was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful."

The other thing to remember with that line in Sith Lords is that "uninjured Darth Vader" is the character we need to compare Vader's power to, not PT Anakin. We only see uninjured DV for 10 minutes in RotS. In fact I'd argue that we never see a fully formed uninjured DV. Between the Jedi Temple massacre & being sliced up by Obi-Wan he was really in some kind of transition phase on the way to being "full Darth Vader". We see on Mustafar a tear of regret or loss or whatever it was. Then when Obi-Wan shows up he's really just in a rage & then he gets injured.
My point is that Vader's feelings about his increased power, as represented by that line in the book can't really be compared to how powerful uninjured Vader would have been by that point. Even Vader himself doesn't know that. More likely he's comparing how he feels to Jedi Anakin or at best that crazed transition Anakin/Vader. What GL is saying is that uninjured Vader could've become the most powerful Force user ever known. Again, he's a character that we only see briefly so it's impossible for us to make a comparison. In Lucas' mind that is how powerful that version of Vader would've become. Personally I completely buy that.

 

So because Yoda has a lower conc than Anakin and weighs about 4x less, he has 5x less force potential? And if Anakin gorges himself on Padmé's pies he earns extra force? My head hurts.

Besides, we never saw small Anakin step on a weighing scale. That however would be necessary to determine the total count in the body. Concentration is always number/kg or number/volume.

No, QG clearly measures concentration and that's the only way these midis can conceivably be made to work. Lucas simply didn't think this through enough but that doesn't mean we have to take serious what he said in interviews.

Imo maybe we should just forget all about this midichlorian crap and crappy interviews that both make no sense and focus on the current canon which will be pretty much midichlorian free save for a few vague lines in TPM. It doesn't pay to speculate about Vader's power level based on illogical piecework of Information.

 

It's never said that Yoda has a lower concentration. It's getting into silly pseudo science here but Yoda would have to have a far higher concentration of midi's given his smaller size. Therefore the "midichlorian count" that Obi-Wan refers to must've been the overall count as indicated by the sample. You can see some sciencey calculations happening on the monitor after Obi receives the sample. If it was just the blood measurement alone you'd think QG's device could've told him that. This way everything they say in TPM & GL's comments all match up. You also don't have ridiculous things like getting fatter changing your midi concentration & therefore your power, as you pointed out. Total midi count makes the most sense.

Oh & they don't need to weigh Anakin. They have super advanced devices that can determine a persons size & mass at the same time as they take a sample

You're right that they don't make everything clear, & they don't have to. This isn't Star Trek. Point is there's nothing on screen to confirm either method so Lucas' explanation isn't contradicted.

They're mentioned once in RotS too. Anyway, they have no bearing on this topic really. SW doesn't have to be that scientific. GL is simply saying, regardless of the reason, that Vader's injuries overall reduced his potential. It's not unreasonable to believe that horrific injuries such as those would do that. Healthy, whole & fully fit Vader would've been even more powerful. I can't see any problem with that.

 

There are still some problems. Does each of Anakin's sperms contain over 20000 midichlorians? And what does happen with the midis when you grow? They never multiply and only spread thinner, right?

I didn't see this happening. As far as I remember, QG only took a blood sample.

Fair enough. Stick to this, if you want, I'll wait what the story group has to say on the matter. Like I said, Lucas' opinion don't interest me anymore.

 

No.

In terms of that which the author created, they are the supreme authority.

To challenge that would be akin in nature to telling God that a verse in the Bible meant what you said it did rather than what He said it did.

Now it is true that Disney, as the new property owner has the authority to order and or recognize a "retcon" at it's discretion. Unless and until it does, Lucas' statements remain binding and authoratative on all matters not otherwise addressed explicitly in the filmed material.

 

Just because he has the potential (measured by his midichlorian count), doesn't mean he has realized that potential.

Losing 30% of his physical mass (and hence of his midichlorians) means that he could only reach 70% of his original potential. When he reaches 100% of his current potential, he will still be weaker than he would have been originally.

However, if, at time of the loss, he was operating at only 50% of his original potential, and the loss forced him to realize 20% MORE of it, he has gained in realized potential (ie "strengthened his connection with the Force") while still losing in absolute potential.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it isn't just the lost limbs. It's the damage to his lungs, possibly his eyes, etc as well. Every permanent injury he sustained destroyed part of his original potential.

 

Sorry, I don't debate with people who compare Lucas to god. I put them on ignore. It is also a good idea to read the whole discussion before writing your answer.

 

In my head canon says that anakins speed and potential weren't ruined due to injuries, maul seems to kick obi's ass just fine and he's half machine. There was no chosen one prophecy, anakin was just not meant to be the best EVAR. To quote rlm: "anakin was not space ****en Jesus, he was just a good jedi that fell to the darkside"

Prophecies, even ironic ones, don't appeal to me. Anakin brought balance to the force because Luke helped him find his old jedi self to over throw the emperor, not cuz some old jedi 1000 yrs ago saw it in a vision and said it would happen

 

Makes me cry inside that people are debating the Force like Dragon Ball Z power levels in a thread dedicated to questioning where a wonder kid fits into the narrative. Oh how the mighty have fallen =(

 

Cheer up mate

So you place your "head canon" above what GL has to say? GL being the guy who wrote the story & invented the characters?
Disregarding the prophecies & Chosen One business is one thing. After all even the films are wishy washy about that. But that aside, Lucas is simply saying that if Vader had remained healthy & uninjured he would've become even more powerful than he did. What's hard to believe about that?? Seems like basic common sense to me.

Oh & Maul just had artificial legs & they were enhanced with some kind of freaky magic. I don't recall him being in a life support suit with mechanically assisted breathing.

 

He is telling you what to think. When you're watching the movies you're seeing the story as he is telling it. You're fully accepting that as the story. I assume while watching you're not going off in different tangents in your mind, like thinking Luke didn't actually go to Dagobah?
As the storyteller what he has also done is fill in some gaps via interviews & commentaries & add extra detail to characters & the story. That's pretty common for creators to do. Strange to interpret that as "telling you what to think". By being a fan you're already accepting him as the storyteller. You seem to be saying that if he'd happened to mention this story element in one of his movies you'd accept it 100%, but bcs he's told you it separately you completely disregard it! That's some weird logic.

Especially when the facts of the story as you've seen it match up with what he's saying. After being on track to be super powerful in RotS Vader gets critically injured. Cut to the next episode 20 years later & he's still serving underneath Palpatine & is seemingly subordinate even to Tarkin. And he's having Imperial officers talk back to & ridicule him! It's makes perfect sense when GL says he's not as powerful as he would have been.

 

Even though anakin has the highest midichlorain count ever he never showed strong force feats in the PT and in TCW his force powers didnt seem that standout even compared to Ahsoka. He and obi wan were evenly matched in that force push exchange. His saber skills are great for only training 13 years though

High midichlorian count doesnt mean you learn force powers faster?

 

Something I liked that they did in a recent episode was having Ezra failing at meditating and using the lightsaber.