Clone Wars Will the Sith's "Grand Plan" be explained thoroughly, or even mentioned in the Clone Wars?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Well, of course Sith don't want to die. But their obsession with life is also in the context of a Sith Order in which if you're not killed by an enemy, then you're killed by your own master or apprentice. For instance, Filoni talks about a Sith that dies as being a failure, but I don't know of any Sith (even when we broaden things to the EU) that live to a ripe old age and die of natural causes. However, Plagueis seemed to obsessively search for the secret to unnaturally prolonging life, and he failed. Sidious doesn't seem to be following the same obsession, so it's unlikely that he's going to discover anything that Plagueis did not. And it probably won't just fall into his lap.


    They're only truth from "a certain point of view."

    The Jedi masters probably were suppressing some teachings, but more because they're dangerous teachings, not because they were greedily hording power from Anakin. And as for the bodies Plagueis experimented on, like that of his master, they were bodies of individuals he killed and then tried to bring back. They weren't the people he cared about, caring about others isn't really a Sith trait.

    His interest in saving Padme from the beginning was completely fake, so if Palpatine had no intention of saving Padme from the start, why assume the story to be true? Sure, elements of it are, like that there was a Sith Lord named Plagueis who was interested in cheating death, but he wasn't some nice selfless guy, he had killed his own master. He didn't teach Palpatine everything he knew apparently. Also, Sidious' plan goes from I to we we you. E.G. "I have the power to save the one you love" .... "if WE work together, I'm sure we can discover the secret" .... "Only then will YOU be strong enough with the Dark Side to save Padme."
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    ROTS implies that it is Plagueis.

    Material originating from Lucas is supposed to be G-canon. The ROTS novel is closer to G-canon than the typical EU book because of the deletion of things in the manuscript which did not receive Lucas' approval. Also, saying that there is no connection in T-canon is not saying very much. By the time of the Clone Wars Plagueis is dead, and thus there would be no particular reason for him to be mentioned in the series.

    The word "immortality" was not used in the film in the context of "cheating death" or spoken by any Sith. It was only used by Yoda in the context of ghosting.

    As you have argued in the past, his death alone doesn't prove that he failed.

    You don't know that.

    It was never said that he was "selfless". It was only said that he could save the ones he cared about. If viewed as a parallel to Anakin's situation this is still only possessiveness rather than any indication of selflessness.

    Sidious consistently indicates that Anakin will learn the power: "Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death." Sidious has the power to make this happen by acting as Anakin's gateway to the dark side.
  3. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    He may have succeeded in cheating death, but if the ultimate goal is to become master over death (i.e. not to die) then he failed. And he pursued such ability with far more passion than Sidious does, and Sidious (if we take him at his word) doesn't even know how Plagueis could cheat death.

    It can be deduced.

    -He had nothing to gain from saving someone who was going to challenge his rule
    -He had nothing to gain from saving someone who inspires Anakin's loyalty moreso than Palpatine, and could turn Anakin against Palpatine
    -As Dooku says, "a wise master does not reveal all of his secrets at once." Helping Padme/Anakin with such a radical power immediately after gaining your new apprentice is a little extreme
    -Sidious is pleased by how distraught Vader is upon learning of Padme's death
    -Helping Anakin out of what seems to be nothing more than good will goes against everything the Sith are

    "Care" is the key word. Plagueis cares for others, a trait that Anakin uses to distinguish the Jedi from the Sith.

    Initially, but he gradually removes himself from any sort of responsibility in the matter. He tells Anakin that he HAS the power to save Padme, then he says that only one (i.e. not Sidious himself) has achieved such a power, but that they can work together to discover it. Then that changes to Anakin being sent to purge the Jedi Temple with Sidious assuring him that he'll be strong enough to save Padme afterward.
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    She could just as easily have been intended as a means of keeping Anakin under control.

    Anakin distinguishes the Jedi from the Sith by calling them selfless. But Plagueis can "care" about someone else continuing to live without being selfless.

    Once again, there is no inconsistency in what he is saying. He has the power to save Padme in that he is positioned as Anakin's dark side mentor and thus he can make it happen by ensuring that Anakin achieves the ability.
  5. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    ANAKIN: The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves.

    PALPATINE: And the Jedi don't?

    ANAKIN: The Jedi are selfless . . . they only care about others.

    PALPATINE: (continuing) Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise"?

    ANAKIN: No.

    PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

    Yes there is. It's as if I didn't understand Calculus that well, and then someone tells me "I can teach you." And then when I'm all set to be taught, they tell me, "on second thought, I don't know all that much about this, but we can look over it together and figure it out." Then later on they just say "On second thought, go read a Calculus text book and then you'll do better."

    It goes from a mentor-apprentice arrangement to one of partnership, to one of Anakin being left on his own with encouragement.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Cut and paste all you want, it doesn't change the fact that Anakin says the Jedi only care about others, while it was never said by anyone that Darth Plagueis was selfless or only cared about others.

    Your analogy is fundamentally broken. It's as if you wanted to solve a famous but previously unsolved math problem, but you needed to learn Calculus to have a chance to eventually do it, and there was only one person who could teach you Calculus, but they hadn't solved the problem themselves ( like all the other people who knew Calculus but did not solve the problem ). Thus, based on their faith in your potential, they believed they had the capacity to eventually cause the problem to be solved, by teaching you Calculus.

    Sidious never said or implied that he "didn't know all that much about" the dark side, just that he didn't know everything, since there was an ability he apparently didn't know or a level of an ability that he apparently didn't achieve. To put it in video game terms, suppose Dark Side Force Heal and Revive Dead are in the same Force power tree. It may be possible for Sidious to have achieved one but not the other.

    These are all just the same "arrangement". It goes from "you will be able to save your wife from certain death" - the chronologically earliest of these statements - all the way to "you [will] be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme" - the chronologically latest of these statements. What a vast imaginary distance in meaning.
  7. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    When Sidious killed off 3 Jedi and had Mace on the run, it makes me doubt that Sidious wasn't holding back because he could've finished him off at any time. Sidious may have sensed that Anakin is approaching his office and he knew that having him on his team would make Sidious a god with "UNLIMITED POWER" so he had to let Mace defeat him so he could trick Anakin into betraying Mace. It was risky (especially with the whole "lightning deflected back into his face" bit) but he had to make Anakin believe that the Jedi are a lot worse than the Sith. Using his force-lightning powers against Mace was the only time Sidious wasn't holding back which led to him being "scarred and deformed " and faking the whole "I'm too weak" nonsense is what finally drew Anakin to his side. Once Mace is gone, Sidious felt a gigantic surge of the Dark Side flowing into him which would explain the wierd voice he had during the moment he baptized Anakin as Darth Vader and Yoda could sense that surge all the way from Kashyyk. As for Dooku, before the clone wars even started, he hasn't murdered anyone or done anything remotely evil. All he's ever done is lead a galaxy-wide protest against a government he feels is corrupted due to Sidious influencing most of the Senate. Most people lead protests against their government in real life and while it might be a cause for concern to some (mostly to politicians), it wouldn't lead to violence of any kind. Of course, noone in the real world is a sorceror conspiring with the President who is also a sorceror in secret to create a phony war. It is only when the Jedi and some senators watched hologram footage of Obi-wan being attacked by battledroids on Geonosis did they consider Dooku a threat so they took action. Dooku may be killing people afterwards
  8. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 2
    No it doesn't. If it did, there would be no dicussion on the matter.

    And until/unless you are willing/able to "connect the dots" (ie - not dying is cheating death) well there is not point in continuing to talk about this with you.
  9. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Not dying is cheating death, but Qui-Gon did die. Ghosts are supposed to be the spirit of a deceased person taking bodily form. Qui-Gon is dead, the fact that his spirit persists in the Force doesn't change the fact that he had died (and his body was cremated). The Sith are interested in bodily survival. At the exclusion of the EU, the only information we really have about Plagueis is that he could stop people from dying and could manipulate midichlorians to create life.

    "Cheating death" is a phrase that is somewhat subjective, but generally is used in reference to cases in which someone survives an incident in which they "should" have died. What constitutes when someone "should" die is subjective. But for instance, there was the case a year or two ago when the baby in the stroller rolled onto train tracks and was "run over" by the train, but the baby survived. Or the guy that was attacked by two Great White sharks and survived because one bumped into the other, allowing the guy to escape. Those can be taken as incidents in which someone could be said to have "cheated death." The Final Destination movies also are about "cheating death" in that they all follow the pattern of one individual that has visions of their death and prevent it, but then subsequently are killed off as "Death" catches up to the survivors.

    Obviously these things generally are just sheer luck in the real world, but Plagueis is said to have a power to cheat death, which simply means that its a Force power that is used to help others survive incidents in which they "should have" died. This is the power that Anakin is interested in. He asks Palpatine to help him save Padme's life, i.e. prevent her from dying, an ability that "One" had achieved. Qui-Gon did die, so he could not be that "One." Qui-Gon DOES achieve immortality in that he becomes an everlasting spirit by becoming one with the Force, but Anakin was not asking for how to preserve Padme as an immortal spirit. Anakin wanted to prevent his visions of Padme's death from coming true. To use the power that Qui-Gon had achieved would involve letting her die.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    [face_laugh]
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The script says "Anakin looks on in horror".
  12. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    That wasn't particularly conveyed in the film. The script (or version of it that was used on Starwars.com's old "script to screen" DVD feature) also described Palpatine as appearing tired right before Mace kicks him in the face and disarms him. The juxtaposition of him being tired with "power, unlimited power" would suggest that he was faking, but Lucas' commentary suggests that was not the case (at least not until he starts saying "I'm too weak").
  13. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 2
    Which would make sense, Anakin doesn't get there until after Palpatine is disarmed. There is no reason for Palpatine to start playing posum before Anakin is there. Hes betting that Anakin will show up, but hes not going to put himself in that vunerable position and HOPE Anakin strolls in at the right time.

    Lucas might have written that Anakin looked at Palpatine in horror, but it wasn't really conved in the movie. If anything Anakin has that look of horror when he realizes that he helped kill Mace Windu, but doesn't have any reaction to Palpatine's face change (which is a part of the PT that wasn't really needed but....)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBpk6EQZUG8&feature=related
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
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    I tend to think the facial expressions of the actors are somewhat open to interpretation. Anakin looks at least slightly disturbed.
  15. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 2
    When its happening he does appear to have a "what the hell" look on his face (which is quickly replaced with an angry look at Mace), and then you see him covering his face. But neither is really a "look of horror". It also happens when Palpatine is being hit with the lightning, not after when the script says it should happen.
  16. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, Lucas says that Palpatine didn't start playing possum until after his lightning attack had failed and it was reflected back at him (and Anakin was there).

    The script that was used for starwars.com's dvd special features (which I don't believe exists anymore), had said something to the effect of "Palpatine and Mace move over to the window which is shattered by a lightsaber strike. Palpatine appears to grow tired and Mace disarms him with a kick to the face" (paraphrased). Obviously since Palpatine springs back to life with "unlimited power" then any reference to Palpatine growing tired while fighting in the window would have to be due to Palpatine deceiving Mace BEFORE Anakin arrives. Had it not been for Lucas contradicting this point in the audio commentary, that's how I'd interpret it as well, since - while we're talking about the subjectivity of facial expressions - Palpatine does look like he's struggling/tired right before he gets kicked IMO.

    But my point was that just because something is in the script doesn't mean that it actually makes it to the screen. It might be intended, but isn't always properly communicated and is therefore interpreted differently.
  17. sluggo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2001
    star 2
    And you're absoultly right.

    Mace disarming Palpatine doesn't have to be because Palpatine is tried, which he doesn't really appear to be in the film I always took that sceen as, Mace is just better with a Lightsaber. Had Anakin not taken the bait and gone back, Palpatine would have just attacked Mace with the force at that point.