Discussion will the ST restore Star Wars legendary glory, or will the LOTR stay on top???

LOTR and SW are very different beasts, if similar genres.

If you are trying to compare the phenomena of SW to LOTR, there's no comparison. SW merchandising is far beyond anything LOTR has or ever will do.

If you are trying to compare quality films, SW still competes. I would argue Ep. IV and Ep. V are superior to any of the LOTR films. Ep. III is on par with the Hobbit and the Two Towers. Ep. I and II are less favorable.

 

I have always felt like Star Wars is sort of the scifi equivalent of Lord of The Rings. In terms of box office, the Star Wars saga is at #3 of all time, one place ahead of the Middle Earth movies, although that is with two more Hobbit movies yet to come. Harry Potter is number 1, but it has eight installments to Star Wars' seven installments (and we can barely count the animated CGI movie). James Bond is #2, but it has twenty-five movies to its name! I think that by the time the sequel trilogy is done, Star Wars will have retaken the top spot as the highest grossing film franchise ever, and maybe even well before that . As for their standing in terms of quality and critical reaction, the Original Trilogy will always be classics, and the Pequel Trilogy is a bit underrated overall (I think Sith is actually a very good movie). The Hobbit so far has received a mixed reception (although I enjoyed it a lot). So I'm not sure that at present, LOTR really is on top, but I'm pretty sure that all doubts will be laid to rest by 2020

 

That list only includes the US domestic gross, if you use worldwide figures then the situation is less clear. Partly because doing inflation adjusted worldwide would be very hard as not only will you have different rates of inflation but also great variations in exchange rates.
But using the OT in this type of discussion is hard because back in the 70's and early 80's there wasn't that much of a home-video market and if you wanted to see the film, you saw it in theaters. Also the ticket prize relative to other prizes was lower back then. I read some study some years back that showed that the prize of a ticket has increased far quicker than the rate of inflation. Personally, I saw some of it as I was alive back then. Back in in the 80's one movie ticket cost about as much as to rent one video film. Now you can rent four or five films for the cost of one movie ticket.

So, it would be more accurate to limit this to PT and LotR. And using the US adjusted list then SW is no 1, 3 and 6 while LotR is 2, 4 and 5. Not a huge difference really. And this list would be different in other countries.

Fox ex. in Sweden, were I live, they did a list a few years ago of top 20 films based on number of tickets sold and all three Lotr-films were on it but none of the SW films were. The winner, by the way, was the Jungle Book.

To bigal6ft6.

First, your argument that only people on the internet like the end to RotK. How would you feel if I said "Only people on the internet like the PT."?
Or "Everyone I have talked to hates the PT."?
I've seen people use that argument here and most people, quite correctly, dismiss it as a baseless argument. Not to mention that it is quite rude.
I did like the ending of RotK and so did the five people that I saw the film with. Yes the film might be better with one less fadeout but it didn't bother me.
Also, the long ending establishes a very important thing, Frodo set out to save the Shire and he has. But he can't enjoy it as the journey has damaged him far too much. To me, if the film had ended at Minas Thirith and the implication was that all the Hobbit were honored and then returned homa and lived happily ever after then the films would have lost something. The victory had a prize and for Frodo is was his home and his life.
Also I very much like the shot of the four hobbits at the bar where they look changed. Their experience has made them grow far more than the other hobbits and things that would have thrilled them before, like a huge turnip, now is of little interest. It shows that none of them go back to the person they were before all this started. They might be home, but that home is different now because they are different.

And if we are to bring in the majority here.
Take Imdb top 250 list. All three LotR filme are in the top 20 along with ANH and ESB. RotJ is much further down and none of the PT films are there.
So clearly then the "majority" liked the LotR films about as much as ANH and ESB and much better than RotJ and the PT.
See how easy it is to use a "majority" to dismiss the opinions of others?
Not to mention that what you and I have are anecdotal evidence at best.

For the reccord, I don't think that Imdb list is the only correct list, nor is the BO-gross or awards or reviews. You can use them to maybe get some sense of how well liked the films are and how well they have done. And by any measurable quantity, BOTH LotR and OT/PT have done VERY well.
Trying to argue who has done best is silly to me. I like both series, I don't like all films equally much but I don't want to have to choose between them.

Finally to the OP, if you really want a discussion about this, tone down your rethoric and use less offensive arguments. Saying things like "Anyone with any salt thinks THIS or THAT." only creates hostility and kills any chance of a good discussion.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I would've taken 12 more endings to ROTK if somehow it could've meant getting rid of Jackson's truly annoying tendencies. I couldn't even bring myself to see The Hobbit "Part I" in a theater for fear of sitting through three hours of weepy slow mo sentimentality.

If the sequel trilogy is looking to match recent(ish) fantasy films, I'd rather it live up to the fine standards of the PT, Studio Ghibli, Pan's Labyrinth, Benjamin Button, Avatar and Cloud Atlas more so than Jackson's work.

 

Star Wars is forever. Unless Peter Jackson wants to make films out of The Silmarillion (which he's not allowed to do apparently) LOTR will probably not last as long in popularity. Mind you I love LOTR.

 

These threads are always "opinion" based so I take them with a grain of salt. LOTR, OT and PT are all successes. As far as the OT goes, nothing on earth will ever compare to them. The primary reason is they were ground breaking in story and in cinema history. The PT was doomed in the eyes of "some fans" because they were expecting something that no one (Lucas, or anyone else) could deliver. Managing your expectations. That's what the PT haters should be doing. Still though, the PT has it's fans and was a commercial success.

Now when this thread says "will the ST restore Star Wars legendary glory", no, as nothing anything that will ever be made, by anyone, will ever compete with the OT. Not just because of the "skill" or "quality" of the film, but that the world is no longer in 1977. Society has changed, and films don't change the world anymore. Just like there will never be another "Beatles".

As far as "or will the LOTR stay on top???", I'm not even sure I understand this. Go into any store, do you see LOTR merchandise falling off the shelves? How about video games? Haven't seen a lot of LOTR games out there. Books? Comics? I think "Star Wars" is STILL ON TOP in all those departments. Even socially, in pop culture: Star Wars is more ingrained in our world then LOTR will ever be.

With that said I'm back to "it's all opinion based". I liked the BOOK the Hobbit, but absolutely hated the LOTR movies. I almost walked out of 2 and 3, as they were so long and boring. Again OPINION, my opinion. And yes, I like the PT and I like the OT.

I think Randal Graves compares LOTR and Star Wars the best:
(warning, a lot of adult language, view at your own risk)

 

LOTR is limited. Once Tolkiens books (wonderful though they are) have been done then that's it. Star Wars on the other hand is effectively limitless. But it's all in the execution of course. If there's one thing Star Wars falls down on it's execution. The Prequels and the endless re-releases of the OT are proof enough of that.

 

How can you expect a "real discussion" with arrogant remarks like that from the start?

And the ST doesn't need to restore Star Wars to its legendary glory because the saga never lost it.

 

I agree. And I don't think anyone has any salt in them. I did enjoy a delicious salty chicken sandwich for lunch though...

 

Agreed. Topics that start off with biased opinions never end up being constructive.

 

True. I'm no fan of the prequels, but unargumented and biased bashing gets us nowhere.

 

If I could "like" this post twice, I would

 

If by LOTR you include the books then might I point out that they have lasted for almost 60 years by this stage.
The books were quite popular and well known before the films and I would think that they will remain that way for many years forward.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I meant the movies obviously.

 

If you dont have the worldwide figures, you can't use them. I'm sure they would be a bit different, but I'd be suprised if they closed such a huge gap.

There are lots of things that make a solid argument difficult, as you point out, becasue things are so different nowadays. That and lots of folks cant tell the difference between their own opinion and numbers... In the US it seems quite clear who's on top in terms of these numbers at least.

We also have to consider that the LOTR books here huge around the world long before Star Wars, which makes it a completely different animal.

Still, apples and oranges.

 

Well take RotJ, it did about 165 M$ over-seas. To compare RotK did about 740 M$. Ticket prize hasn't increased five times since 1983.
BO-mojo's calculation uses a factor of about 2,4 and that includes the 1997 SE so the factor is even lower.
But using this 2,4 factor this gets RotJ over-seas gross up to almost 400 M$. Total combined gross is 1,157 M$ total gross.
RotK UN-adjusted is 1,119 M$. Adjusted brings it to about 1,469 M$.
So using these, probably not too reliable numbers, show that the difference world wide isn't big and for some movies, LotR comes out on top.
Not with ANH obviously. ANH has all the other movies beat.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yeah, even I have to admit that LOTR is overall better than SW.
It just maintains its integrity in a way that Star Wars doesn't. Better acting, more emotional, better dialogue and better characters.

Hopefully the ST can balance the playing field.


To the original poster: there will definitely not be any spin offs of LOTR. They can't deviate from JRR Tolkiens stories as they can't get the license to do so.
Lucas sold the rights, but Tolkiens works are treated like a sacred relic that must not be altered.

 

Then why did they alter it so much?

 

Wasn't this whole mess settled a few years ago in Clerks 2?

 

"Fellowship" was a fun movie. The other two LOTR were boring as hell. And let's not even talk about "The Hobbit", except to say that they've already used all their Gollum scenes in part one, and from this point there's nothing interesting left.

Anyway. LOTR won a whole smorgasbord of Oscars, didn't they? In my book that makes them pretty much overrated, utterly conventional acts of cinematic mediocrity.

 

I fell asleep in the first LOTR movie, it was that boring.

 

Star Wars really could have used a lot more slo-mo. Perhaps that would make it approach the "greatness" of LOTR.

Let's see:

*Vader strikes Obi-Wan down, in slo-mo. TRAGIC MUSIC starts.*
*Luke gasps, in slo-mo*
*Obi-Wan's robe falls to the ground, in slo-mo*
*Han reaction shot*
*C-3PO reaction shot*
*Leia reaction shot*
*Chewbacca reaction shot*
*R2-D2 reaction shot*
Luke: NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Obi-Wan (V.O.): Run, Luke, Run!
*Stormtroopers shoot in slo-mo*
*Han drags Luke (still screaming) up the Falcon's ramp in slo-mo*

BRILLIANT!!

 

As far as you know.

There's more to that story, the way I heard it. Supposedly Nicholson asked Elijah what happened in the end, going "Did you die?" or something, so Elijah attempted to explain what the whole going to Valinor thing was all about, and Nicholson was like "No, I mean I left! Too many endings."

 

Are there any left that are from the book? I mean, who knows. They could pull additional stuff from whatever peripheral Tolkien texts they have the rights to, same as they're doing with this Necromancer stuff so they can add as much padding as they need to turn "The Hobbit" into three incredibly long movies.