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Will this film be 'redemption' for George Lucas?

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by stormcloud8, May 6, 2005.

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  1. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 23, 2001
    Or maybe they did understand and just didn't find parts of it entertaining or interesting. That's the non-snooty explanation.
    I've never had a problem with the story; it's just the execution of it didn't always capture me.


    As I said 90% did not understand the film. That leaves 10% who did. Of those 10% I would guess five enjoyed the film and five did not, so I am in no way saying that everyone who dislikes the film doesn't understand it, just that the vast majority of people did not get it, and therefore their opinions do not matter.

    I personally have yet to speak to a human being in the flesh who upon questioning could prove that they comprehended all of TPM and did not enjoy the film. I've spoken to a handful (less than 5 I'd say) people online who would fit that criteria though, so they do exhist (following my math it's about 5% of people who saw the film would fit that bill).

    !snap
     
  2. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 23, 2001
    That's being a bit extreme, don't you think?

    If you're refering to me saying that 90% didn't get the film, no, actually that is a conservative estimate.

    Sure, I agree that a lot of people didn't really follow the intricacies of TPM or AOTC, but that's not where the bashing comes from.

    If someone does not understand a film they have no place to judge it. That would be like me telling a Quantam Physcisist he's doing a crappy job with his experiments... if I have no clue what he's doing I need to keep my mouth shut.

    !snap
     
  3. dojotony

    dojotony Jedi Youngling

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    Mar 23, 2005
    "if someone does not understand a film they have no place to judge it."

    Not saying this exactly applies to the PT, but if a movie is so convoluted that it's hard to follow, then you can certainly blame the director. I think it smacks of snobbery and elitism when one blames the audience for not understanding a film when the film is ridiculously convoluted.

    As for AotC -- the plotline is murky and difficult to follow for a lot of people. I know people here can roll names like Plo Koon or Bib Fortuna off their tongues like fluent english, but for a lot of movie goers, just all the talk of Sidious, Palapatine, Tyranus, Dooku and Syfo Dias is enough to cause them to scratch their heads. I know, I know -- the point of the PT is that people do not know who is evil or not...so therefore it should be easy to sympathize with a confused audience. I don't know if Lucas could have done it a better way, but if the audience is going to complain and judge it for being confusing, I'm going to understand exactly where they're coming from.
     
  4. Philagape

    Philagape Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Mar 18, 2005
    Well my criticisms have nothing to do with the story. Simply bad acting (likely a result of dictatorial directing) and bad writing. These are micro-criticisms, not macro-criticisms.

    And if 90% of the audience doesn't "understand" a film, that's a failure of the filmmaker. (Or it's a MISunderstanding of the 10% who think they understand it better than the rest.) Perhaps more of the audience could "understand" it more if it were better written. When a filmmaker, or any artist, offers his work for public consumption, it's his job to please the audience. Otherwise, if he only wants to satisfy himself, then he can keep his imagination to himself. Just as it's his right to craft a scene any way he wants, it's my right to say his vision for that scene sucked. My opinion counts because I'm paying my money to get into the theater.

    I'm not a football coach, but I know a bad throw or a dropped pass when I see one.
     
  5. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 23, 2001
    Not saying this exactly applies to the PT, but if a movie is so convoluted that it's hard to follow, then you can certainly blame the director. I think it smacks of snobbery and elitism when one blames the audience for not understanding a film when the film is ridiculously convoluted.

    I agree, however this does not apply to the PT, as you stated.

    !snap
     
  6. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 23, 2001
    And if 90% of the audience doesn't "understand" a film, that's a failure of the filmmaker.

    In the case of some films, yes; in the case of TPM, no. As I see it there are two reasons why those 90% didn't get it.

    1) They're just too dumb. Now this is not a large percentage, but there are those out there that just don't have the mental capacity for this film.

    2) They didn't pay attention because they were too busy waiting for the next lightsaber to turn on.

    It's not a difficult film to grasp if you pay attention. The vast majority of viewers went into that film expecting nothing but lightsabers and Force pushes, so as soon as the Senate started talking about trade negotiations they tuned it out until the next action scene. This is not the fault of the director.

    !snap
     
  7. jariten

    jariten Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 23, 2000
    I dont know why this has never (to my knowledge) been fully addressed, but the fact is that it is perfectly possible to enjoy these prequels without knowing whats 'really' happening.

    you do not need to know who sidious is, what dookus really up to or any of that to enjoy what, at there core, is a steamlined, fun space fantasy.

    to get soem perspective on this, try watching the PT with someone who is unfamiliar with the OT. I had to go to japan to manage it, but it really opened my eyes as to how good these films really are.
     
  8. Philagape

    Philagape Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Mar 18, 2005
    But a great percentage of the film's critics base their criticisms on other factors. You focus on the people who just want eye candy; I was disappointed because the film's appeal was little more than eye candy.

    I, for one, found the political plot intriguing. Talking about trade routes and blockades and no-confidence votes and corruption makes the movie more real to me, more deep and relevant, as did the galaxy's various social structures. I greatly appreciate the complexity of Palpatine's manipulations.

    But none of that changes the fact that the dialogue, in writing and execution, SUCKED! Politicians and religious leaders don't have to be stiffs! If that's how Lucas wanted it, then he made a bad call. By giving his characters such stunted, shallow dialogue, he undermines his own good story. It's an adult story told in the language of adolescents, as if en eighth-grade social-studies class performed a mock legislative skit.

    The words that come out of a character's mouth, and the way they're delivered, is what makes me care about him or her. If I'm going to pay X dollars to sit in a theater for 2 1/2 hours, I better find the characters to be interesting and entertaining, regardless of the story. "The West Wing" proves that politicians can be snappy and witty and still have gravitas; it's their wit that shows me these are intelligent, three-dimensional people whom I can connect with emotionally. Lucas failed to connect me to Qui-Gon or Amidala or the Jedi Council. When Qui-Gon died, I didn't care. Ironcially, one of the characters I connected to most was Jar Jar; at least he had personality. If I want to read a history textbook, I'll go to the library. But I want a film to move me. I want "history" to come alive.
     
  9. stormcloud8

    stormcloud8 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 24, 2002
    Yes, I think that the idea of what he was trying to do in I and II was OK, and the story is very interesting. It was his execution that failed. He has also fully admitted that ROTS is the payoff and most of the story, and I think he shortchanged us by doing that. It's almost like he just wanted to get I and II done so that he could get to III.

    Bottom line for me is that he wasn't ready to write and direct the most important film of his life (TPM) and should have done some practice film work before jumping back in the Star Wars saddle.
     
  10. jariten

    jariten Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 23, 2000
    nah. Lucas was telling the story be wanted to tell, no amount of 'practice' wouldve changed that.
     
  11. Obi_Frans

    Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 31, 2003
    Lucas was telling the story be wanted to tell, no amount of 'practice' wouldve changed that.

    I think most people have accepted the story for what it is, likewise - the complains are very rarely about the story itself. With practise i presume the critics/posters mean that George, as a director (not a storyteller) could've used some polishing up before TPM.

    - O_F
     
  12. KNIMBLEKNIGHT

    KNIMBLEKNIGHT Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Mar 8, 2002
    Snap - you're quite a character. There is a difference between being able to follow a movie, and understanding all the intricacies of a movie. For just about any somewhat intelligent movie, you can argue that a vast majority of viewers don't fully "get" everything that the director was trying to say. But that's completely different from saying the public just flat out didn't understand the film. And even if they don't understand it, they sure as hell have a right to critique it.

    Lucas isn't making these movies for the 10% of the population who have the capacity and/or desire to put forth the effort to fully understand every little plot detail - just as with the OT, he's making them for the masses. If 90% of the public didn't get TPM, that is a failure on the part of the director. But the public understood TPM just fine. And you know what - for the most part, they liked it (although by your logic you probably feel they don't have the right to like it).

    Hate to bring in a LOTR comparison, but you could certainly argue that 90% + of the public didn't fully understand those movies. Yet the director, despite all the complicated backstory and plot intricacies, pulled the audience in - by making us care about the characters.

    Again, the problem with TPM wasn't that the audience didn't understand the movie. It's that we never truly formed a bond with any of the characters. We never felt that Naboo was in any sort of real danger.
     
  13. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Not so sure about that.

    My wife, who is incredibly intelligent, didn't really understand why it was Naboo and the Queen that was in danger.

    She had to see AOTC and understand the roles that Sidious, Palpatine, and the Trade Federation play, and have me explain the whole "tax dispute and the blockade" aspect. And she never really enjoyed AOTC until she understood that Dooku and Sid/Palps were playing both sides against the middle - suddenly, every plotline becomes clear.

    I think it's a great story, very complex, shows off the scheming power of Palpatine, but it could have been a bit clearer.

    Things ARE supposed to be murky, yet this is also SW.

    Of course, judging by the number of hardcore SW fans who couldn't figure out the whole Sifo-Dyas angle, maybe people just don't get it.
     
  14. episodenone

    episodenone Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 13, 2001
    thats a great point about sifo-dyas.

    i believe that when you are able to see the PT all in a row - it'll turn out that many things become much more clear.
    i think this was a conscious decision for GL.

    VERY UNLIKE the OT in which he had to make ANH good enough to be a stand alone flick.

    once he accomplished that goal -- ESB certainly needs to be coupled with RotJ in order to get the story - as ESB cannot exist as a stand alone film.

    that said - Tina (may i call her Tina?? o_O) being confused by the whole blockade and TF involvement pretty rings true as an assessment of all the casual fans.

    another example is sifo-dyas - unless it gets cleared up in RotS - i think GL mad a major blunder in leaving it's explanation to LoE!!!

    especially in light of the fact that obi-wan, mace, and yoda all seem perplexed by that plot point. if your characters are confused - the viewer ain't gonna havea clue and MUST INHERENTLY expect to have their confusion settled in another film - not just an EU-ish book.

    thats simply poor story-telling - especially when you couldnt make the name a little less similar to sidious.
    unfortunate - but not impossible to remedy. mostly because in nearly everyone's friendship circle they have someone that knows the deal.

    and secondly, and perhaps most importantly - it doesn't get asked about all that much by casual viewers.
    they are wayyyyy more caught up in the more obvious plot points involving the main characters.

    anyways...
    i think this movie cannot truly 'redeem' GL, but it will be a major boost.
    it is this same idea that will add creedence to and 'redeem' the PT as a whole, cause like i said - GL made these as 3 movies telling 1 story.

    on to the LOTR comparison: sure GL could have made 4 hour long directors cuts - but he isn't adapting original novels [that he did not even write] and cutting them into movies - Peter Jackson was. he had to make choices to get films in theaters vs. films onto hardcore fans dvd players.

    GL has no interest in that - obviously.

    and there is no way a casual fan at the movies fully knew all that a well-read fan of JRR's novels did and was able to appreciate etc etc --- the same was a well-read LOTR fan wouldn't know as much as someone who read JRR's 'Silmarillion,' 'Unfinished Tales,' or the 'Illustrated Encyclopedia'
     
  15. Billy_Dee_Binks

    Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 29, 2002
    I very much agree on some of the posts in this thread. Most bashers are biased against the two movies so far because they don't feel the same experience they got when watching the OT when they were CHILDREN. Therefore the childhood MEMORIES aren't there they way they want it. They act over critical.
    And yes, lots of them work for the media now and try to stuff their negative opinion into other people's heads. Sadly there are many that buy their thoughts, sometimes even blindly, without having seen the movies.

    It is true, the children of this generation will carry along their fond childhood memories of the Star Wars Saga- that six part story into adulthood. Thus, a more positive outlook on this epic story as a whole.
    Sure, nowadays there is a lot more going on. SW isn't as special anymore (not IMO) because there are tons of movies that are big on the effects allowing anything your imagination could come up with. I still believe SW will hold a special place in their hearts.

     
  16. oLiquidRusho

    oLiquidRusho Jedi Master star 2

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    May 8, 2002
    I don't mind people disliking the prequels too much. Just like anyone else, they're entitled to their opinion.

    The only thing I dislike, and I do hear it more often than I should, is people saying "Lucas raped my childhood by making the prequels"

    ONLY one guy probably said that - and then the masses who just love to exaggerate say it too. Its the most cliche line about how much they dislike the prequels.

    I have a friend who used to love SW and would try to make me watch them all the time because he wanted me to share his enthusiasm for the movies. Back then I never really watched Star Wars until February of 1999. But of course it was funny while I had become more of a fan of Star Wars, my friend was the one that got disillusioned with the series because of TPM. Not to mention he hated AOTC as well. I didn't mind at all that he disliked the film, in fact I liked it, because he and I would have good discussions. But last night another buddy of ours was trying hype ROTS up and my ex-star wars friend of mine uttered that damn "raped my childhood line". That seriously pissed me off. Not because he talked smack about the movies mind you. Who cares in this case about the movies. I had to say, "are you seriously that sad in life that you have to blame a set of movies for a scarred childhood? You would simply block all happiness you had in your life because you just so happened to be dissappointed in a set of movies? The original trilogy is still here. The movies are not gone or anything. I don't like Superman 3 or 4, but that doesn't change my view on 1 and 2 now does it?" Of course I don't really believe he feels "scarred". My point in telling him that was pretty much, stop exaggerating. The movies sucked. Fine. And thats all they did. If they truly affected you the way you say they did, then . . . . buddy . . . . lets get you some REAL problems to educate you. We live in a world that has poverty, plague, Israel vs Palestine, kids with machine guns . . . . and there are people who actually try to make a big deal about how the PT has scarred their childhood. Sure, its just a line, but its such a short sighted line sometimes. Over two movies.
     
  17. bswb

    bswb Jedi Master star 1

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    Dec 2, 2000
    Well said, oLiquidRusho.
     
  18. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 23, 2001
    dont know why this has never (to my knowledge) been fully addressed, but the fact is that it is perfectly possible to enjoy these prequels without knowing whats 'really' happening.

    Oh I completely agree. A lot of that 90% like and even love the film.

    !snap
     
  19. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 23, 2001
    You focus on the people who just want eye candy; I was disappointed because the film's appeal was little more than eye candy.

    My point is that the vast majority of people who claim it is nothing but eye candy did not get the film, and missed everything that wasn't eye candy. Now by no means am I saying this is true in your case, as I estimated that there is still 5% who fully understood and followed the film and didn't like it (you very well could be part of that 5%).

    !snap
     
  20. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 23, 2001
    If 90% of the public didn't get TPM, that is a failure on the part of the director.

    I couldn't disagree more. I for one do not want to see a film that is made for the lowest common denominator. If a film doesn't challenge me intellectually there is almost no chance I will enjoy it.

    !snap
     
  21. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 23, 2001
    Of course, judging by the number of hardcore SW fans who couldn't figure out the whole Sifo-Dyas angle, maybe people just don't get it.

    You hit the nail on the head. I may come across pompous when pointing it out, but it's the truth, and I find it to be supremely ironic and hilarious that a film can be bashed as being too childish, but if you stop and question that same person who just bashed it they can't tell you what was going on. Hey bud, if it was so childish why couldn't you figure it out?


    I don't mind people disliking the prequels too much. Just like anyone else, they're entitled to their opinion.

    I don't mind a person honestly not liking the films either, it's their opinion, however when you bash a film that you as an adult did not comperhend... now you're just making a fool out of yourself.

    As was said before though a lot of these people are just regurgitatiting what was spoon fed to them by countless "critics" on how they should feel about this or that movie.

    !snap
     
  22. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 23, 2001
    Snap - you're quite a character.

    [face_laugh] Sorry if I'm coming across crazy, but this subject is one of my biggest pet peves. Bring up diet soda and you'll probably get four in a row from me also. :D

    !snap
     
  23. episodenone

    episodenone Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 13, 2001
    ok snap - now you've done it...

    diet pepsi or diet coke?

    but truth be told - GL does deserve some of the blame for what people do not like about the PT.

    on the other hand - he deserves all the credit for what people do like as well.

    i think had someone else - whomever that may have been - had the opportunity to clarify some of the aformentioned plot points at opportune moments - we might have had a slightly different appeal in the PT.

    alas - bashers tend to be a little sad in most of their negativity.
    like i said before - films are works of art.
    and when it comes to works of art - beauty is in the eyes of the beholders.

    if you don't like a film - and it's because you don't understand it - maybe you need to dig a little deeper?

    donnie darko? first time i saw it i needed some help in understanding it.
    same thing with 12 monkeys.

    however - 2 of my top 25 films [in my own personal and humble opinion] once i did understand them fully.

    and thus i say again - once all 3 of the PT films are out - i think we might in fact see some people scratch their heads and say "ohhhhh. i get it!"

    will they say "now we love TPM." ?
    probaly never.

    but they might appreciate the PT and the saga a whole lot more when seeing the story complete.
     
  24. Beowulf

    Beowulf Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 28, 1999
    Most fanboys and fans of SW put the OT up onto a pedastal that cannot ever be reached, and completely forget the fact that much of the dialogue is incredibly HORRID in the OT. The acting, also, gets about as wooden as a Redwood forest, and it's corny just like the PT. They're both SW, so there's no need for redemption.
     
  25. dojotony

    dojotony Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Snap, a movie isn't necessarily intellectual because it's confusing. And making a film that's complex need not be mind-boggling to the viewer -- watch The Usual Suspects or Memento to see a film that is intricate yet not so completely convoluted that one has to look to supplemental books to understand the plot.

    Personally, I don't look to SW for intellectual enjoyment. Rather, it's the opposite for me -- I love the saga because it has a visceral, base feel to it. If I want something cerebral, I can read Proust, Joyce or Nabokov.
     
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