PT Windu vs. Vader: A Wasted Opportunity

It all comes back to the foolish midichlorians and Anakin's 20,000+ count, adding in the Chosen One story. Vader didn't need any of that to make for one heck of a central character in terms of his intensity, both in light and dark. Before the PT, to me the Force had two big levels: raw power and transcendental power. Of the 5 Force users we see in the OT, they split into these two groups: (1) Luke, Vader and Obi-Wan; (2) Yoda and the Emperor. The first ones are warriors, fighters and persons of action. The second ones are on a higher plane (since "wars not make one great"), manipulating the Force through sheer will. If anything, it is Obi-Wan who sits at the borders of these two.

The PT muddled the waters, trying to elevate Anakin into a mystical character that never pans out, because that was not his role. I personally was offended by the "Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midichlorian count that high" statement. It would seem that Yoda was #1 and was suddenly dethroned by Anakin. It this implying that Anakin is stronger in the Force than Yoda? I will never buy that; not only is it conceptually improbable, but empirically elusive. We see a determined, courageous and effective Jedi in Anakin, and a strong-willed and wholly capable Sith in Vader, but never at those levels. That permanent set-up never paid off: the 20,000+ higher than Yoda (TPM), the I will become the most powerful Jedi ever (AOTC), the "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us" (ROTS), and so on. I never saw Anakin/Vader that way. He was a man with a destiny, just like his son afterwards. Actually, It is Luke who resembles the promise of Anakin: pure talent, instinctive use of the Force (though Anakin had it also), raw power...just look at Yoda's eyes when Luke is trying to bring up the X-Wing...there is awe and admiration there. Vader destroyed the Emperor because of love, not power.

This thread was premised on the notion that Vader needed a victory in the raw power department, leaving he transcendental Force power to the real masters (damn did that word get under-valued in the PT!)...the ones who only need to Force to do battle! Sorry, big Yoda fan over here.

 

To each their own, of course. I think everyone should have the right to interpret things in their own way, and also express their opinions and bring up points to other. But, then again, it isn't really until the PT that we get that Yoda was more than another Jedi Master. We do have "strong am I in the force, but not that strong," of course. He lifted the x-wing, but he is a teacher, a watcher, a guide. The terms "power," "strong," and so forth usually are speaking of Vader or Luke.

I agree that Vader was able to overcome the Emperor because of love and self-sacrifice, but I don't see those giving him the power on their own to destroy the Emperor (though many do). it seems clear to me through both trilogies (and even before TPM came out) that Vader was the strongest, though he may not have had the knowledge in the force of Yoda or the Emperor.

All that aside, I know through past experience that debates of "who is/was the strongest Jedi/Sith" can be circular and difficult, and that this is not the point of your thread.

I'm an equal-opportunity fan of 1-6, and, though I am trepidatious (though also hopeful) about too much saturation of the brand in the future (and Vader in particular), I would like one of the spin-offs to include Darth Vader ruthlessly and effectively "hunting down and destroying the Jedi," which I hope would address your "victory in the raw power department."

Cheers!

 

It's probably important to note that Vader in the OT didn't have any real 'power' feats to speak of, force-wise, outside of throwing a few things at Luke on Cloud City - but nothing like as large as the X-Wing that Yoda yanked out of the swamp (which for all his blathering about 'size matters not' was clearly filmed as a very impressive display of power.) His reputation is as a pilot and a lightsaber duellist, and he's got plenty of credibility in both by the OT standards.

The PT's much more widespread use of force powers and lightsabers everywhere is not necessarily wrong but it's a different setting and a different style - Vader (the badass cyborg version) never featured in that setting except for a very brief showing right at the end. It's maybe not quite apples-and-oranges... more like apples-and-pears. Broad similarities but far from identical and with different purposes and pros-vs-cons.

 

tbf he did choke lots of people simultaneously from huge distances.

but the prophecy thing was still stupid to me. just by removing that and like four other things you automatically make the two trilogies flow much better.

 

Yeah, but from a purely visual 'wow' perspective the old force throttle looks like your pinching thin air, compared to Sidious chucking around lightning from his fingertips which ups the Holy **** Quotient quite considerably especially given we HADN'T seen anything like that before he busted it out. It isn't that Vader never was powerful, simply that what looks powerful by OT standards and what looks powerful in the PT setting are two different (not necessarily better or worse) things.

 

Maybe Anakin's raw power with the Force was never really supposed to be the determining factor on whether or not he would bring balance to the Force. It's possible that the Jedi were mistaken in that regard.

 

Quite likely. After all, to be 'balanced in the Force', I doubt it means 'be really frickin' strong in your raw powers'. It meant something entirely different.

 

If Anakin's midi-chlorian count simply isn't relevant to his role as the Chosen One...then I have to wonder why it was ever brought up, or specifically noted to be the highest ever.

Not sure why the will of the Force would give the Chosen One power he doesn't need.

Uh, Anakin isn't to be "balanced in the Force", he is to bring balance to the Force. It's not necessarily about Anakin, it's about what he's going to do.

So, if the Chosen One is going to be really strong, as he is said to be, presumably that strength will be required to bring balance to the Force, to do what he is supposed to do. Maybe not, maybe that's a bit of misdirection, a bit of irony.



Anakin's high midi-chlorian count, stemming from being "conceived by the midi-chlorians" or whatever, does set him up to be a demi-god, like Hercules, with several similarities in their stories. Killing his wife, the funeral pyre, ascending to the Mount Olympus/Force Ghost, being in tremendous pain before death, immortality, etc. Anakin does lack his 12 Labors, or similar great feats of heroism, in the movies to solidify his place as a hero. It also seems that Anakin's strength is not as important to his story as Hercules' strength is to his. Then again, Anakin does snatch lift Palpatine in the end...but that could be seen as a function of his cybernetic strength.

Anakin presumably needs his great strength to carry out the destruction of the Jedi Knights, so maybe that was part of his role as Chosen One.

 

Windu vs. Vader: A Wasted Opportunity
I used to seriously agree with this, I believe we all even thought in the "spoil me for episode III" days that a duel would for sure be happening. Now, years later, although I still admit it would've been a wicked fast and visually stimulating duel, it would cause the overall plot to suffer. Anakin/Darth Vader cutting off Mace's hand was a snap quick decision where the basis was down to "Padme > Jedi." As much as Mace was hard on Anakin from what we saw in movies/books/comics/tv etc, it wouldn't be overally personal. With providing a duel between the two, you risk the chance of Mace actually talking some sense into Anakin, as he has yet to commit terrible acts (Tusken slaughter aside, of course) and is still grasping to remain good, as you can see from his "What have I done?" moment and his tears.

Sure, at the end of the day, he would always pick Padme first. But Anakin wasn't evil enough to jump in and have a long stretched out duel with Mace full of hatred. That's what Mustafar was for.

 

I prefer the way it turned out. I liked seeing Palpatine as a skilled swordsman. The only other place we see his skills is with his battle with Yoda. And while it's extremely cool,everyone knew what the outcome would be.

 

I think Vader could have beaten Windu. Windu's Vapaad would have not worked against someone like Tyranus or Vader. Tyranus favors elegance and he keeps a level head in battle. Vader goes into battle with a heart of ice. However, Sidious Palpatine gave Windu something to work with, but Sidious threw in the fight because he wanted Anakin to come in and be deceived.

Now, when I say Vader could have defeated Windu, I'm talking about the Vader we all know. I'm not talking about flesh and blood Vader at the end of ROTS. Vader had not yet learned from his mistakes prior to his defeat by Obi-Wan's hand. Vader later learned and became more deadly and skilled than he would have otherwise in spite of his cybernetics.

 

Cool image in my head of a suited Vader waiting for Windu but let's be honest. A suited Vader wouldn't defeat Windu. Pre-suit Vader could have. And Anakin only lost to Obi-Wan due to his confusion. If Anakin was in the right frame of mind, he would've never made that jump that costed him his limbs

 

The problem is that a mere Lightsaber duel between them in which Vader wins while an exciting visceral thrill event pales in significance to THE crux point of the entire story of Star Wars. Anakin's decision, his choice to save Palpatine from Mace's strike.

Now whether or not Sidious could have stopped it ( I have no doubt he could have) is another matter entirely.

As it plays out it is the most significant event of the saga as it is Anakin's turn to the Dark Side.

It has to be Mace at that point. There is no one else it could be.

No, Anakin did when he destroyed Sidious. Something that Yoda couldn't do nor could Vader.

In terms of mere Force powers Vader would have become stronger than either. Of course he was stronger than Obi-Wan already in ROTS. Having raw power is not the same as knowing how to use it.

Vader was never going to outclass either of them in their respective wisdom of the Light and Dark Side even though his power would. Anakin never really embraced the Force until the very end.

 

So true. We must remember, "Wars not make one great!"

I feel the scene is perfect as it is. It was meant to be a mirror of the scene in ROTJ, where Luke is on the ground and Sids is lighting him up. Vader looks between the two of them and decides to take out Sids (to save Luke, his family) and throws him down a bottomless shaft.

In ROTS, Sids is on the ground and Mace is the aggressor. Anakin looks between the two of them and decides to take out Mace (to save Padme, his family) and helps Sids hurl Mace to his death down a bottomless cityscape.

A perfect mirror where there is one constant: Anakin/Vader's tendency to let love and attachments control his actions.

A fight scene between Mace and Anakin would have been filler action at best. Sure, I get that they shared some animosity since the very beginning but that doesn't really justify a duel.

This beautiful video demonstrates the mirror point perfectly at 1:38: