With AOTC/TPM Lucas pulls the rug out from under our expectations

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jabbadabbado, Sep 18, 2002.

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  1. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    ANIDAMI124-- I was being saracastic. Your response had no point. I know I am stating my opinion. Wow.

    Anyway, as for this being GL's story and me writing a fanfic, isn't it time you picked up a more meaningful response to someone you disagree with? I have no interest in writing fan fics. I am just responding to a very good thread. When the thread started I disagreed with the intial post and replied. That is how I want to discuss SW. You need to get used to the idea of people disagreeing with you. Come on now...
  2. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    How does having 2 daughters NOT make one a mysoginist?? You say like it he chose to have daughters.

    GDS, Lucas's kids are adopted, so he DID choose to have daughters. But why should I expect logic from a prequel detractor? [face_plain]
  3. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    I know they are adopted. Which is why I said "..even if he did choose that does not mean he does not have bigoted feelings towards women."

    That's about as lame as people who say "I'm not racist, I have a Black friend!"

    Come on Homer, you can do a little better than that.

  4. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    There you gushers go again personally attacking "all" for one person's comment whether basher or not. Typical. [face_plain]
  5. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

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    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    GARTH_MAUL wrote:

    Qui-Gon is in no ways responsible, using a cheap deathbed promise tactic on Obi-Wan!

    Yeah . . . QG gets a lot of flak for that. I don't think he was using Obi-Wan for his loyalty, though. Qui-Gon could just as easily have said, "Promise me you'll nag Yoda into training the boy." The fact that he didn't says to me that he really thought Obi-Wan was the best guy for the job. Flawed judgment, true, but not cruel emotional manipulation. (And he could hardly help the "deathbed" thing, what with having been run through by a lightsaber and all).

    Hmm...on "misogyny": Leia was an extremely strong character, especially contrasted with Luke in ANH. She always seemed in control.

    True. I expect her prototype lies in the sort of character Kate Hepburn used to play in the 1940's--think "Adam's Rib." Hepburn played individual women with smarts and class--not characters designed to carry iconic status and reference a wider "liberation" movement. (Another way to say "iconic status" is "token)." :p I'm really glad Lucas went with the older style of stong female character rather than the "I'm just like a stereotypical man only slightly dumber" style that was fashionable in the late '70's. ::shudders::

    That said (and this is veering off-topic a bit), I've been wondering--does Leia add anything to the Skywalker family myth? She's a cool character, but would it have made a difference if she'd been Bail Organa's biological daughter, or the long-lost daughter of some other Jedi? I know the reason she ended up being Luke's twin had nothing to do with the Skywalker myth--Lucas was hiring his actors on a film-by-film basis at the time, and he needed a backup plan in case one or more of his principals backed out. Yoda's "there is another" line was basically to give Lucas an out in case Mark Hamill didn't sign on again. (Or in case he got into another car accident and couldn't work). For that matter, the twin thing nicely resolved that whole Luke/Han/Leia love triangle.

    But strictly in terms of the fall/redemption story, does Leia have a point? Does her status as Anakin's daughter help redeem him in some way? Does her existence redeem Padmé--whose only sin seems to have been a weakness for rough-around-the-edges guys, a trait Leia shares? Is she just good Jedi breeding stock, or what?

    (FWIW--I can actually read some interesting father/daughter stuff into ANH, although it was obviously unintended at the time. There are a lot of real world young women who are struggling to assert themselves against Daddy's authority--a struggle that's more interesting when father and daughter have a lot of the same personality traits, as I think Anakin and Leia do. However, unlike Luke's struggle, we don't get a resolution to the Vader/Leia thing in ROTJ).
  6. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I know they are adopted. Which is why I said "..even if he did choose that does not mean he does not have bigoted feelings towards women."

    It doesn't mean that he doesn't, true, but unless you provide evidence showing that he does, we'll just have to assume you're making a mean spirited attack on Lucas' character.
  7. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    "Yoda's "there is another" line was basically to give Lucas an out in case Mark Hamill didn't sign on again. (Or in case he got into another car accident and couldn't work)"

    There may be something else to this line though.

    Lucas' sister was originally supposed to not be Leia and instead from another part of the galaxy. This was still the idea around the time of Empire's development and production.

    Lucas apparently changed his mind during writing the script for Jedi in late '80-early '81.

    It could've served a double purpose.
  8. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Yes you do have any opinin. But so do I and ever one else here. That is no reason to bash some one for having any opinin. Just say what you want to say and I was make a suggestuen. This is GL's story he will write it how he wants to if there are people who don't like it then they don't have to see it. He a long with the gut who made the LOTR movies will make them the way they want to. Not the way we want them. Because ever person in this world has a diffenert veiw on what the PT should be like. I was just saying if you don't like the way GL is doing things then write a fanfic and have SW done your way. I meam we all had different veiws as to what the clone wars were. Jyst like we ahd different veiws of what Padme was like what here real name was before the PT. We all most found out in the EU. But that never happened. So how about you just take the fact that I may not agree with you. On some things. Such as Anakin's emoitons. You also don't have to agree with many but don't come and bash me for my opinins. So i don't agree with what you said there is nothing wrong with that.
  9. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

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    Jun 25, 2002
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    Whoa! A lot of water went under the bridge while I was writing that last post!

    Green_Destiny_Sword wrote:

    How does having 2 daughters NOT make one a mysoginist?? <snip> And even if he did, that would still not mean he doesn't have bigoted feelings towards women.

    It's impossible to prove a negative, so I won't try. However, unless I see compelling evidence of true misogyny in Lucas' character or behavior, I will assume he does not have that prejudice.

    I also disagree with your assessment of Anakin's love for Shmi. You say it's unhealthy because Anakin killed people who were connected to those responsible for hear death. but was it love or Anakin's demented personality?

    Good point. However, if Anakin's personality is demented would his love not also be demented? I have my doubts that his love for her started out that way, but by AOTC some pretty dark elements seem to have crept into his attachment to his mother.

    this whole idea of inflexibility and arrogance is overblown to me. Where does this play a role in the problems the Order has encountered in the PT?

    I'm not sure we've seen all its effects yet. All we've been getting is hints: Jocasta Nu thinks that if something isn't in the Jedi archives, it doesn't exist. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can be pretty contemptuous when dealing with the civilian population: ("What's this?" "A local)." Mace Windu is so sure he knows everything there is to know about Jedi that he discounts the idea that Dooku is dangerous. ("It's not in his character)." Yoda's comment about Jedi arrogance (to my mind a mild rebuke of Obi-Wan for challenging the Council's decision) comes just as he discounts Obi-Wan's objection to Anakin being sent on a mission alone. Clearly Yoda, like Mace, is mistaken in thinking he knows everything there is to know about Jedi character.

    THe OT PROVED that a teenager could be trained effectively enough to wield the lightsaber and resist the darkside even in the midst of the ultimate emotional conflict. Luke has every reason to turn to the dark side and unleash its fury on vader. Yet he resisted. So I don't see why it had to be different for Anakin who was 9.

    We could go around and around about how old is old enough to "know better," but I'd rather not. I'll just say that little Anakin had to start off pure, because there could be no fall and no redemption if he was rotten from the beginning. Someone on another thread said something like, "You cannot redeem what had no value in the first place." I don't recall who wrote that . . . sorry. :(

    EDIT:
    ShaneP wrote:

    Lucas' sister was originally supposed to not be Leia and instead from another part of the galaxy. This was still the idea around the time of Empire's development and production.

    [Wayne]I did not know that.[/Wayne] Still, I'm not sure what key role in Anakin's redemption a non-Leia sister would have played.

  10. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    That is very true Opholia you can't redmee some one who was bron evil. Whcih Anakin was not. He was never bron evil.
  11. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    ANIDINAMI124-- Look, I did not bash you at all. YOu have repeatedly said the same things to me in various threads when we disagree. I KNOW this is GL's saga. I don't expect him to take my suggestions. In fact, I think it would be crazy for him to. but that does not change the fact that I am entitled to come on here and say whatever I feel about his decisions and movies. You never even make a vain attempt to refute the substance of anything I have to say.


    OPHELIA said:

    It's impossible to prove a negative, so I won't try. However, unless I see compelling evidence of true misogyny in Lucas' character or behavior, I will assume he does not have that prejudice.

    Well couldn't a simple blood test prove that someone is NOT the father of a child? Or that someone did NOT commit a rape? Negatives are proven every day.

    But furthemore, I am not saying GL is a misogynist. All I am saying is that having adopted daughters and sisters does not mean you love women or see them as equals.

    Good point. However, if Anakin's personality is demented would his love not also be demented? I have my doubts that his love for her started out that way, but by AOTC some pretty dark elements seem to have crept into his attachment to his mother.


    fair enough. But I still think in AOTC we see Anakin's overall personality is bad. He is sort of a sociopath. And I don't think it all relates to his mom. His disresctful attitude towards Obi Wan and his cockiness to me come from his overblown belief that he is better than everyone else. Even Yoda. So that to me, is more about him than his relationship with Shmi. The same goes with his other unruly behavior.

    I'm not sure we've seen all its effects yet. All we've been getting is hints: Jocasta Nu thinks that if something isn't in the Jedi archives, it doesn't exist. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can be pretty contemptuous when dealing with the civilian population: ("What's this?" "A local)." Mace Windu is so sure he knows everything there is to know about Jedi that he discounts the idea that Dooku is dangerous. ("It's not in his character)." Yoda's comment about Jedi arrogance (to my mind a mild rebuke of Obi-Wan for challenging the Council's decision) comes just as he discounts Obi-Wan's objection to Anakin being sent on a mission alone. Clearly Yoda, like Mace, is mistaken in thinking he knows everything there is to know about Jedi character.


    See this is why I say it's overblown. Yoda trained Dooku. Dooku's old, so you know Mace has known his for a long time. They think he's agenerally good guy. And they're wrong. I would not really call that arrogance on their part. They just did not realize how truly evil this guy is. The mistake seemed like an honest one. not a sign that the Jedi have become to "arrogant" or "inflexible". As for QG and Obi Wan being rude with the public (some of the public anyway, they are very nice to shmi and the gungans), this I can't explain. I don't know why the Jedi tend to act rude. Maybe that is their arrogrance. If so, I totally agree.

    We could go around and around about how old is old enough to "know better," but I'd rather not. I'll just say that little Anakin had to start off pure, because there could be no fall and no redemption if he was rotten from the beginning. Someone on another thread said something like, "You cannot redeem what had no value in the first place." I don't recall who wrote that . . . sorry.

    Well, we know Anakin was on the good side of things in the PT. He was a Jedi. So there if anything is his moral start. But the PT has showed us he has a lot of personality flaws. As I have said before, if I had never seen the OT and someone told me "guess what? in Ep. III Anakin turns to the dark side!" I would not be surprised. In fact he would be the one Jedi i would put money on turning to the dark side. He's not that great a guy. So good? Yes. In ways. Pure? No way.
  12. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I also disagree with your assessment of Anakin's love for Shmi. You say it's unhealthy because Anakin killed people who were connected to those responsible for hear death. but was it love or Anakin's demented personality? He is a violent, unruly, amoral person. He does not have any respect for authority or laws. He's also incredibly impulsive. So to me, the root of his slaughter of the Tuskens was not in any love for Shmi, but his own emotional damage and issues.

    Ok Anakin does love his Mother. He always has loved his Mother. Ones personality can not be demented. If it can then would that not mean that he would be born evil. No other then Palpaitne which hey I think he was born that way. Anakin is bron good and it's good to know that he is someone who love his Mother. After all in this world there are people who hate the Mothers and Fathers and there are Mothers and Fathers who hate there kids.

    He does respect the laws. but on his home planet there are no laws. Which is why a lot of bad people go there. or people like Han and Obi-wan would go to to get away form people who are after them.

    Also at 1st he was killing the tuskens because of what happened to his Mother. He saw the some one he loved die. In he gave in to the dark side a little bit. Palpaitne will come along in Ep 3 and finihes that How he does that we don't know.
  13. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

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    GDS wrote:

    Well couldn't a simple blood test prove that someone is NOT the father of a child? Or that someone did NOT commit a rape? Negatives are proven every day.

    You're right--I ought to have said it is impossible to prove an existential negative, that is, to prove such-and-such (in this case GL's theoretical misogyny) does not exist. The only exception is where there is a logical contradiction, i.e., "This is a square circle."

    Thank you for pointing this out and preventing me from perpetuating sloppy "Usenet logic."

    (BTW--I'm watching "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" for the first time as we speak. How cool is this movie?! Note new sig quote. Arguably the perfect epigram for the PT). :p
  14. MobartZmuda Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 4
    You haven't gotten to the desert scene in Crouching Tiger yet I see. It's like a 30 minute flashback and from then on it's all down hill.
  15. Jedi_Leia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 1
    i]But strictly in terms of the fall/redemption story, does Leia have a point? Does her status as Anakin's daughter help redeem him in some way? Does her existence redeem Padmé--whose only sin seems to have been a weakness for rough-around-the-edges guys, a trait Leia shares? Is she just good Jedi breeding stock, or what?[/i]

    I've always wondered about this so I'm glad someone's actually mentioned it. :)
    It's true, in the OT Leia is a great leader and we see her relating to Luke but we don't see her as a primary figure in the whole fall/redemption story. She seems to just be "good Jedi breeding stock". As for Padme being redeemed? I don't know about this. I'm not sure she needs to be redeemed. We'll have to wait till Episode 3 to see what happends to her.


    As I have said before, if I had never seen the OT and someone told me "guess what? in Ep. III Anakin turns to the dark side!" I would not be surprised. In fact he would be the one Jedi i would put money on turning to the dark side.

    See, I would be surprised. I don't think Anakin is evil in AOTC. I think he can't control his emotions and he's a bit overconfident, but not enough to be a "sociopath". Yes, there was the Tusken Slaughter but there were circumstances surrounding that. I'm not saying it's alright that he did what he did. All I'm saying is that it's not like a guy who just wakes up one day and says "I feel like killing someone." That's evil. We are also told by Cliegg what kind of people the tusken raiders are.. I think this is sometimes overlooked. It was placed there to create that friction.
    I know there are many threads on this issue alone and I think it basically boils down to opinion, so that's mine.. :)




  16. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, Anakin is just whiney and arrogant by the end of Episode II, but he's still a long ways from being the next Darth Maul. I think anybody watching Star Wars for the first time starting with Episode I would be quite surprised with the journey young Anakin will take.
  17. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I'm not sure I agree, Durwood (well, from TPM, maybe.

    Hayden does a really good job of conveying this...intensity of Anakin's.

    As my dad often says, when describing people, Anakin is either on "1" or "10" all the time. Padme is sort of the "4-6" range. So is Obi-Wan.

    So, when Anakin is with one of them, they (sort of) ground him and keep him relatively rational...but if he is allowed to be his "1" or "10" self, the results are...unpredictable at best.

    There's also the tired, yet still useful cliche that love and hate are 2 sides of the same coin.

    That much love can be more easily turned to hate, and vice versa.

    So in AOTC, (well, obviously the Tusken slaughter scene) we can see the beginning of Anakin's downfall. People have debated the effectiveness of Lucas' and Hayden's portrayal of Anakin and his slippery slope to the DS, but I think it was a good job.

    Hmm..Green Destiny Sword, why don't you just ignore posts like that? This can't be the first, nor the fiftieth time this has happened to you. Trying to reason with people in this forum is...difficult...at times.:)

    I think it's very unfair to regard Leia simpy as "breeding stock." She was the backbone of the Rebellion, solidified Luke's beliefs in the Rebellion and the validity of his own motivations, and essentially single-handedly set Han on the straight and narrow.

    She also brought Ben Kenobi, and thus, Luke into the conflict.

    In some ways, she seemed stronger than Luke...and if I had to choose between them who was more likely to turn, I would have wagered Luke. Granted, Luke knew about Vader, but even so...

    Whatever...I don't want to get too much into Leia's significance here.:)

    ...I've lots of thoughts on this, suddenly.

    Interesting to compare Luke - grew up with his aunt and uncle, to Leia, who grew up with her mother (not for long), and then the Organas.

    Both knew they were adopted, am I right?

    Don't forget the theme of "destiny," or the "Cosmic Force," or what have you.

    Hmm...Vader had Leia in his grasp, never realized she was his daughter.

    But he realized Luke was his son...perhaps simply the name of Luke Skywalker spread through the galaxy.

    If Vader had known he had 2 kids, I bet Leia would have been more involved in the redemption business.

    Bah...enough rambling.

    But it's also fascinating to compare Luke and/or Leia to Anakin - they both seem a lot more stable than Anakin.

    Is that simply the effect of having Padme as a mother, a genetic "calming infuence?"

    Yes, it was shown to great effect in the OT that some punk teenager could learn how to be "proficient" (against a bunch of Hutt mafia-types and an old man) with the Lightsaber and the Force.

    No, don't get me wrongo. Luke is very powerful in ROTJ. But what makes him even more powerful is the strength of his character.

    Then again, Luke didn't have Palpatine Wormtongue yammering in his ear for 10 years either...


    -dust

  18. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I don't think Leia knew she was adopted. Luke yes he did know he was adopted. If he didn't know that Owno and Beru were not his parents then he is real dumb.
  19. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

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    anidanami124 wrote:

    If he didn't know that Owno and Beru were not his parents then he is real dumb.

    [silly]
    YODA: Your father he is.

    LUKE: (realization dawning) So that's why I have a different last name!!

    YODA: (to self) What a dumb***.
    [/silly]

    Okay . . . I'm looking at the title of this thread and wondering how I can drag it back on topic. (I admit several of the digressions were my fault)!

    So anyway, what's with this whole ambivalence toward machines thing in the PT? Here we have R2 and 3PO, who are good, but when Anakin gets a mechanical hand, he's "losing his humanity," which is bad.

    We get in-joke references to "Metropolis" and "Modern Times," silent black-and-white films about how technology is stealing our souls--and then we get "all-CGI, all the time" Yoda.

    Spaceships, lightsabers, and waitress droids seem to be good, or at least neutral, but Techno Union = bad, Federation battle droids = bad, the Jedis' excessive dependence on their computer system = bad. (Of course if computer addiction is bad, I'm goin' to hell . . . :_|)

    Questions of the moment:


    1. Is Lucas trying to teach us a lesson about our relationship to machines in the PT? If so, what is it?

    2. Do the facts that he went with a digital format for AOTC and made unprecedented use of CGI undercut his moral message?


  20. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Ophelia that was funny.

    Vader: Luke I'm your Father. Owen was your Uncle.

    Luke: So that is why I called him Uncle. So is Beru my Mom.

    Vader to self: This can't be my kid.

    Vader to Luke: No she's your Aunt. Owen was my Step-borther.

    Luke: Well it your going to yell about being my Father I'm jumping. See you.

    Vader to self: He just can't be my son. He is so dumb. dumb@$$
  21. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I don't know why the Jedi tend to act rude. Maybe that is their arrogrance. If so, I totally agree.


    Yet in AOTC, they don't. Not even Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan is polite to everyone he meets, even Dooku. He's even pretty gentle with Zam, after he takes off her arm. :)

    So far I haven't seen the arrogance cause them to do anything which leads to their "downfall". Jocasta Nu is the only one shown to be truly arrogant, but Obi-Wan doesn't buy what she says and Yoda is more than willing to believe that it's been erased. So it hardly proves that they are hugely arrogant as a whole. She's a crotchety old Jedi who probably never leaves the library anymore. :) Ki Adi and Mace's difficulty in believing Dooku would be behind assassinating Padme isn't necessarily arrogance, so much as having too much faith in an old friend and she didn't exactly present them with compelling evidence in an attempt to prove her point.

    But when the time comes, they don't pull any punches with him or allow their former relationships with him to keep them from trying to stop him and even if they had believed her immediately, the outcome probably wouldn't have been much different, they'd still have to figure out where he was, they'd still have to guard her, they'd still have to investigate, etc, etc, which is exactly what led them to him anyway.

    They don't necessarily believe Dooku about the Sith controlling the Senate, but they do exactly what they'd have to do even if they did believe him, which is to keep an even closer eye on the Senate, because even if they believed him totally, they'd still need to watch it in order even find a place to start investigating.
  22. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Ah, Ophelia...it looks like you and I are going to try for the all-time long post record.

    BTW, good luck on getting this thread back on track.:)

    In response, that's an interesting point about Lucas' reliance on machinery. I wonder what we'd think of the PT if he had used the same procedures as for the OT...I mean, even if you don't like _________ about the PT, they have to be the best-looking films of all time. IMHO, of course.


    Yes, R2 is almost a demi-god or something, always in the right place at the right time.

    There's the conversation between Obi-Wan and Dex "well Dex, if droids could think, then none of us would be here" or something to that extent. And Dex's line "they only recognize symbols...it's these distinctive markings.:

    Well, of course machines are going to be limited in some ways.

    Maybe the point is summed up best by Dex: the difference "between knowledge...and wisdom."

    Perhaps Lucas is just warning us to be wise in using machines. If something goes wrong, we must be willing to take over.

    I.e., Han hotwiring the hangar doors on Endor in ROTJ after Artoo gets fried.


    Now, since I've actually run out of things to say at this point, I will just make a plug for a band I've been listening to a lot recently: Interpol, Turn On the Bright Lights.

    It seems NY is the "new Seattle," what with Interpol, the Strokes, Black Rebel Motorcycle Club, etc.

    -dust
  23. Emos-Edud Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2002
    star 4
    There are three forms of sentience in the SW universe: lifeforms, clones, and droids. Ep2 does in fact reveal quite a bit about the relationship between the three. Perhaps it is warning about the mechanization of life.

    I don't think you should read too much into the technology Lucas used to tell his story. Even puppets or go-motion aren't "real." His use of computers doesn't relate to the themes. They are a tool for artistic expression.

    Interpol is famous? Damn, I know (er, knew) those dudes. I guess they've been busy the last year or so.
  24. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    o Is Lucas trying to teach us a lesson about our relationship to machines in the PT? If so, what is it?

    o Do the facts that he went with a digital format for AOTC and made unprecedented use of CGI undercut his moral message?


    Here is an excerpt from a 1999 New York Times interview with Lucas where he talks about the relationship with technology:

    SHELL: But people seem to perceive you as being more interested in
    technology than emotions. Now you're describing yourself as an emotionally
    or, as you put it, a "romantically" inclined "Victorian" person.
    LUCAS: Well, most people know me from my work using technology. But I think
    one can tell from my movies that I have a very romantic point of view about
    technology. I don't hate technology. But at the same time I'm well aware of
    the dangers of technology. Anybody who knows me knows that I'm not really a
    high-tech person. I mean I like technology and I enjoy technology, but
    technology to me is just a tool. It's not something that I'm intrigued by
    and obsessed by and need to be with per se. I would rather go sit under a
    tree and read a book than sit in front of a computer, go on line or join a
    chat room. I would rather have tea with someone.

    SCHELL: Is there implicit in this view an optimism vis-a-vis the state of
    the human race?
    LUCAS: I'm a cynical optimist [laughs].
    I'm a cynic who has hope for the human race, although I look at human folly
    and sometimes I get very frustrated. We have, I think, gone quite a ways
    intellectually. But emotionally the human race has hardly moved at all,
    which is something I find fascinating. It's dangerous that we're advancing
    so fast technologically while we're not advancing very fast emotionally.
    The rest of the article can be found in this thread (near the bottom of the page).
  25. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Ophelia, your comments about Star Wars are consistently creative and challenging. I really appreciate your reading of Leia as the offspring who is most like Anakin - possibly a reflection of what Anakin could have accomplished had he never been trained as a Jedi.

    A criticism I've always had of the OT is the way ROTJ drops the ball in closing out Yoda's "no, there is another" remark. Leia is central to the aga, yet she never really fulfills her promise. She helps save herself from the Death Star in ANH, but in ESB is only a foil to Han Solo. In ROTJ she plays a supporting role in an important tactical maneuver, but is somehow lost as a central figure of the rebellion.

    But reinterpreting Leia as an offspring of Anakin and Padme enhances her presentation in the OT. Padme is a politician and Anakin is a rake and Leia is a combination of both. Leia is what we would imagine her to be had she actually been raised by Anakin and Padme. Luke on the other hand is the true black sheep of the family. He was raised by farmers yet possesses some of Anakin's latent skill.

    I guess I really do buy into the theory you pose that Leia, just by being who she is, also in a sense helps redeem Anakin and maybe Padme as well. Leia represents what Anakin could have been had he never found out about his Jedi powers. She also represents what Anakin and Padme would have raised her to be had they been allowed to live their lives together.

    And maybe Leia's strengths as a character redeem somewhat Lucas's approach to the role of women in the lives of men. I do not particularly admire Lucas's presentation of the mother-child relationship and the romantic relationship, but I admire his presentation of Leia, so maybe it balances out.
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