With AOTC/TPM Lucas pulls the rug out from under our expectations

Durwood: watch DBZ you will see that not only does what goes on around some one shape them but so does what they do. Look at the real world. kids look up to grown ups for good things or bad. So yes things even we do can shape what people become. Yes Anakin chose the Dark Side do to what ever the jackass Palpainte tells him. But there are other thing that lead up to that. Anakin just did not wake up one day in say I thin I will join the Dark Side. Things will happenen in his life that pushes him over the edge just like seeing what happens to Luke brings him back to the light side.

 

I'm not saying that your upbringing doesn't play a role in how you act later in life but that you are ultimately responsible for your own actions. Trying to blame your parents for your bad decisions is a cowards way out of your own mess. As the saying goes, you made your own bed; now you have to sleep in it.

 

Yes but in many case it does have to do with hwo one is brought up. SOme parents do not taech there kids right or wrong, good or bad. They think some one else should do that.

Yes they kid will answer for what he does. But the parents sure as hell help the kid get to where he is now. Becasue they chose not to teach him good thing. They just let him do whatvery he wants. So the kid does not know right form wrong. Yes Anakin does know right form wrong. but he is told to keep those emoitns away. So Palpaitne plays off those and use them aganist Anakin to draw him to the Dark Side or thats what he may do. Think about it if you get Palpaitne out of the way. Anakin would not fall becasue he dose not have Palpatine there with the bait and hook. Other then Padme Palpaitne was the only one who told him to fallow his emtions. I think if the JC knew about this and knew he was a Sith they would have stopped him and saved Anakin.

 

Yes they kid will answer for what he does. But the parents sure as hell help the kid get to where he is now.

You're talking two different realms of responsibility. The parents are responsible for how they raise their child and the things they teach them, but the child is ultimately responsible for the path he follows.

You asked, "But what about parents who don't teach their kids right from wrong?" The parents are obviously responsible for that bad decision, but unless their child lives in a vacuum he will be exposed to ample positive influences to recognize his need to follow the straight and narrow.

I work with some kids in my youth group who don't receive instruction and discipline at home, yet they know how they're supposed to act. However, because they don't face any tangible consequences for their behavior, they make the choice to misbehave. Their behavior is based on willful decisions and not ignorance.

 

Yes but not all of them are like that. I do know of kids hows parents do nothing with there kids and are very out off control. They seem to want som eone else to raies them. Remember values start at home. Also again he may never have fallen if his Mother lived or even if Jinn was his Master. Obi-wan is not a bad master. It's just I don't think like most people have said he was read to train Anakin. In away he was kind of dumped on him. Also he made a prouism (can't spell that word) to his master. Not out in the real world. But any ways let get off this sudject. Before we start bashing each other ok. Again it is not all Anakins faulit just as it is not all Obi faulit. The_Abe said if won real want to blam someone for Anakins turn look at Palpaitne. He tricked not only Anakin but very person on the JC and senten or we can always say it was JAR JAR's doing.

 

Holy Shinto!!!!

This is the best thread I've read in a long, long time. Usually I find I don't post much, b/c by the time I get to a good thread, everything I can think of is already down. Hard to have completely original thoughts on this board. So, once again, gold kudos to Jabbadab.

Okay, lots and lots of thoughts, I'll try to keep them as coherent as possible.

I guess I'll just use numbers to keep thoughts separate.

(1) entropy - the concept that all systems decay. This is a major theme of the PT. In a way, and I think this was mentioned, the collapse of the Republic was inevitable. Things get out of control, the system expands till it gets so bloated it collapses on from its own gravity.

E.g., the latter Roman Empire, just before utter collapse, had some brilliant leaders - Theodosius the Great, Justinian, etc. But they could only delay the inevitable.

And you can apply entropy not only to the Republic but to the Jedi Order as well - I can't remember who posted on "the mindset that worked for 3000 years can't always work, but it's difficult to see."

It IS difficult to see when exactly and what exactly a person or institution should change, when it has been successful for so long.

I mean yeah, look at the problems of the Order that lead to Anakin's turning and the collapse of the Republic. But they were only problems b/c of n-billion other factors.

Which goes to my 2nd point.

(2) Destiny.
(relates to the road to hell argument). It seems to me like Lucas is saying "good people sometimes do bad things, even if it's for good reasons, or they think they are doing good. This might mean that very big bad things will happen, but don't worry, in the end, it all evens out."
So many little "mistakes" by so many characters, all relating to the fate of the Republic...and the Chosen One appears at this exact moment, and his decision governs all. Coincidence?

(3) Goals.

What are the goals of the Sith (and associates)? Domination. Personal gain. Power.

What are the goals of the Order (and the Republic? Maintain the status quo(?)

When something massive has cracks throughout its structure, is it easier to destroy it, or to keep it together, looking like it's always looked?

Which leads to my next point:

(4) The OT "Evil Empire" vs. "Underdog Rebels" or the polarization of belief.

The OT is easier to digest - the Empire is obviously "evil" and totalitarian. The Rebels are fighting against it, passionately and with little hope.

The PT is hard to digest - the Republic is not all bad...the Order is not all bad...Qui-Gon is not all good...Anakin (who we must hate) is not all bad (in fact, it's easy to sympathize with him). Even Palpatine doesn't seem all bad. Well, yes he does. Anyway, I could go on and on.

In order to function, we as humans tend to categorize things. When you see a person, you automatically put them in a category. Same with a movie or a band or whatever.

I believe people get nervous when they find something (or someone) that is difficult to classify. "If you follow your thoughts through to conclusion..." you'll find the categories you use to install order on the world are not as real or stable as you thought.

(5) Obi-Wan's teaching (or genetic/environment debate)

Yeah, Obi wasn't perfect - look how Anakin turned out.

Then again, Yoda taught Dooku, and look how he turned out...

(6) I'll keep this one (mercifully) short: I don't think the Jedi Order is quite as, well, stupid and useless as everyone seems to think.

I think the Code has worked for centuries. It was an excellent system, but perhaps it couldn't apply perfectly to every individual. And maybe the Order's weaknesses are amplified.

I'm not saying they aren't out of touch and (over)confidently passive, but they aren't all bad either.

Thanks for reading, if you get this far.



-dust

 

One more thing Jabba. Again good toipc you came up with and look no bashing or gushing. Just good old talk about SW.

 

Great thread... let me touch some issues that haven't been explained...here's a big question...

The Jedi are not to have attachments... I can't understand the reason why they couldn't/shouldn't be married?

Here are 3 question & answers:

1. How could a Jedi fulfill their commitment in the order and be involved with a family as well?

Seeing how the structure of the Jedi is set up, the Jedi may not be able to do their job as effectively if they had the "mundane" concerns of caring for children & a wife.
Since the Jedi were the law (no, this isn't Judge Dredd!), having a family would also pose a security risk...

For example:
What's to stop Nute Gunray from trying to kill Obi-Wan's wife & kids in retaliation for Obi-Wan's part in the liberation of Naboo?

None, unless the Jedi families were to be kept at the Jedi Temple raising security concerns. It would be harder for a Jedi to do their job if they had to deal with issues of revenge killings and so forth.

2. The "explosion" of Force powerful children could overwhelm the Jedi's resources
and what would happen to these Jedi children?

If they decide not to follow in their Jedi parents footsteps, wouldn't the issue of Midichlorians mean that there would be "rogue" Force-sensitives that have potential to be future enemies of the Jedi or just misuse their ablities to the detriment of the Jedi/Force?

We see how Palpatine uses Vader to get his hands on Luke, in fact, Obi-Wan explains to Luke that they hid him & Leia because they could be a THREAT to Palpatine, they never take into consideration that the children of a Jedi could be used as WEAPONS against the Jedi.
(Even after their hiatus, the surviving Jedi still don't have a clue to Palpatine's manipulations.)

3. If a Jedi can get married, can't they get a divorce or what about marital disputes?

Since the Jedi aren't superhuman and have been shown to make mistakes, what would occur if their spouse after being "neglected", decide they wanted out of the marriage or if they eventually decided to cheat on them?

I think the possibilites would be more than enought to affect the Jedi in their duties and effect the potential for them to fall into more Dark Side-loaded emotions.
As in Anakin's situation, he can't let go
of his feelings for people.. if these feelings were manipulated, as in his case, I think the potential for more Jedi to fall to the Dark Side would be introduced.


There are LOGICAL reasons as for the Jedi NOT to have families.

I'll touch on other issues later....

(Please excuse all grammatical & spelling errors, I was on a roll here...)

 

Jabbadabbado said:

Institutions are known for their ability to parent? Why would Obi-wan or Anakin be emotionally mature? They're being raised by generations of people who were raised by institutions. Yoda gripes that the Jedi are arrogant? The dysfunctional father complains that his children are dysfunctional.

Lucas seems to be making the argument that the Jedi order needs to fall. Again, I think it's a surprising and bold artistic choice.

Ah, yes! We're talking about institutions! Excellent!

The analogy between the PT and our real world is one that dissects the relationship between Church and State. In TPM, we see the Jedi are intimately connected with the Senate. In AOTC, and presumably, in Episode 3, we will see how the Church crumbles and the State prevails. I think GL's metaphor is apt and says plenty about the dangers of a religion imposed by the State. However, GL turns this age-old warning on its head since the State, as in Palpatine, crushes and eliminates the Churh, as in the Jedi.

Jabbadabbado eloquently captures GL's politics on Church and State: The Jedi order needs to fall.

 

Woo! A chance to write more in this thread!

Punisher, I completely agree.

I found it interesting how many people on this board sympathized with Anakin's problems with the Jedi Code. Well, he didn't have a problem with it until his mom was dying and his __ dream girl was in front of him.

The Jedi don't say: "don't love, don't get angry." They say: "don't be ruled by passion, whether it be love or hate."

How well has mankind fared throughout history when thinking with its (collective and/or individual) heart instead of its head?

I'm not saying we should all be like Spock, but when you an extraordinary person who has taken on a commitment and can use an amazing power, there has to be a standard.

The potential is there, for either great evil or great good.

Human beings can do enough evil every single day...in traffic, at work, at school, at home. Imagine if we could all tap into the Force! There would be an exponentially-higher usage of the Force Grip, I can assure you of that.


Love is (obviously) in most circumstances a wonderful, and indeed essential thing. But it can be dangerous, especially when reason gets clouded.

SW example: Luke is actually doing really well in the Throne Room in ROTJ. He's being the ultimate Jedi; seriously, I can't believe it took him that long to try to shut that old bastard up! If it was me, it would have been like 4 seconds.

Luke actually deactivates his lightsaber in his duel with his father. How Jedi is that?

Then what happens? Vader, that sneaky so-and-so finds out about Leia, and Luke loses it, cuts off Vader's hand, and comes within an inch of decapitating Dad. It's only the shock of seeing the mechanical hand that brings him back to his senses, and the Light Side.

Luke thought he could turn back his father, and refused to fight him. Then Vader says he'll try to turn Leia, and Luke goes Begbie and would have killed him.

I think the Jedi Code gets a bum rap.

-dust

 

Wow, good thread, and nice to see people talking civilly for a change.

While in my opinion the the over all poor craftsmenship takes away the legitimacy of any great messge GL might be trying to deliver, I don't find any disagreement in your points Jababa.

"If it is intentional, if Lucas has actually thought it all out and knows where he's taking his unlikeable protagonists, then I absolutely respect his efforts, the breadth and scope of his artistic intent."

The real question is if it is intentional, and my gut feeling is that it is not. I can't prove this one way or another, but thats just my assessment.

If in fact, this is GLs overall plan, and I'll assume for a moment that it is, its still bothersome to me that he could not convey his ideas with his skills of old. I'm more then willing to bend over backwards to buy into what GL is trying to do, I'm just not sure he's suceeding, and in the end I feel a bit condescended.

Ambiguity is one things, while incoheency is another. I jsut htinkt hat if this is truly the case then this trilogy should have been more character driven then it is plot driven. Less time should be spent on the incidental charcters an more on the those who will actually shpe the events to come.

Indeed Yoda does seem contrary to what we saw in ESB, and I don't have a shred of sympathy for the Jedi, if this is GLs intention then so far he has done a marvelous job.

But I'm left witha more troubling issue. Why are Yoda, Mace and the other Jedi in these films at all? Thus far, if you exclude fighting in the battle of geonosis, what real imapct and purpose have they served? Take Mace for example. His primary role in the prequel filsm is to give Yoda soemone to talk to, an excuse to give Yoda dialogue. Thats fine, he is essientially Chewbacca to Yoda's Han Solo. But what has Yoda done for the prequels. Yes we all love Yoda, and its good that we get to see him again, but in all reality, what purpose has he served.

He refuses to let Anakin eb trained, only to change his mind later int he first film. In second film he is all over the place, training kids, confering with politicians, having troubled visions and leading armies, and yet int he grand scheme of things, how has he affected the saga at large. I keep asking myself why he has so much screen time, and the simple answer is: he's Yoda.

But is that really a valid reason? I alays assuemd Yoda would appear in the PT, but why? Because he trained Obi-wan. Or so we were lead to believe, but whatever context you take his teaching young Ben in, we don't see it on screen, or for that matter it isn't spoken about. Soa gain, why is Yoda in the movies?

What are your thoughts?

 

It is so absolutely refreshing to finally see an ongoing dialog about the inner meaning of the PT so far, and AOTC in particular.

Curious that most of the typical "always right" people who seem to have the midas touch in killing threads haven't reared their ugly heads in here.

As far as the Jedi Attachment thing, I'm not sure this is an always and forever jedi thing. I think maybe Yoda and the council might have enforced this on Anakin a bit more knowing his past and his clouded future. This is my theory, you may all shoot it full of holes now...

 

I would like to see the force brought back into focus, it seems like it has been delegated to a tool/weapon for the jedi, rather then a spiritual force to be discussed, and to decide the fates of many.

Even the mididchlorian talk of TPM was better then the seeminly irrelevancy of the force in AOTC. To me the force is part of what elevated SW above the flash gordon serial it was intended to be.

 

Next issue... children with weapons... WHY?

There are many examples in past history of warrior groups, many have a "connection" spiritual or what not, with their chosen weapons...

Obviously, with the Jedi, there is a certain amount of heritage with the lightsaber (it used to be the same way with guns in America...ah, back to SW) and it would seem wise for the Jedi to instill their Padawans with respect for the weapon at a early age.
I have read that the sword fighting exercises of the Samurai & Ninja are instrumental in aiding their spiritual development as well, what's not to say that this isn't the same with a Jedi?

The lightsaber isn't just a weapon ("This weapon is your life"), there are certain traits to the weapons... look at the designs and the (gasp!)EU!
The design of the lightsabers reflect the characters in the films.. therein lies the heritage...

It's funny, but the Yoda lightsaber is similar to Luke's ANH saber and, if it didn't change from when Anakin wielded it, it is ironic considering Anakin's boast about his swordsmanship vs Yoda.

Vader's saber is almost identical to Anakin's saber except, Vader's is darker around the emitter.

Luke's ROTJ lightsaber is very close to Obi-Wan's from ANH.

Even Obi-Wan's PT saber is similar to Qui-Gon's saber, even Dooku's saber has some similarities to their saber designs.

I don't think the Jedi feel they are giving a weapon to a child as much as they are giving them a defensive tool that they should use their entire life.

One would think that the individual history & designs of these weapons would be a good case to the fact that the lightsaber isn't thought of as a toy or a "machinegun".

Since there are EU stories explaining the personal nature in which the individual weapons have been created..
Take Anakin's for example...

Anakin was supposed to create his lightsaber in a trance while he fought a image of Darth Maul, this could mean that is why Anakin never changed his saber design once he became Vader, maybe the Dark Side was already affecting him, as well as him being used to a lightsaber of that design in his fighting technique.
If the younglings were using weapons of their own design, (I doubt it) this would enforce the argument that these are personal weapons, not just toys.

This isn't a simple case of Yoda passing out lightsabers to the kids and letting them have fun with them...

 

Excellent posts, Rebel Scumb.

In some ways, the criticism of Lucas (by this I refer to the ambiguity and continuity errors in the PT) is deserved. WTF?? 3P0 is made by Anakin?? And then Lars sees him, and doesn't recognize him in the future, and vice-versa?!? That's a pretty obvious one, and it's hard to believe Lucas and co. didn't notice it.

Maybe it's all a huge conspiracy, which is the bombshell Lucas will drop on us for Episode III (I heard that Lucas said there will be a "I am your father" type surprise in the PT. I could easily be mistaken.). Yoda and company knew that Anakin would turn, but he was the only one who could defeat Vader, so Yoda and Mace let the Republic be destroyed, and sent Obi-Wan to watch over Luke...yeah!

Bah, I'm prolly bringing the grade of this post down.

I think Lucas has a really, really, really, incredibly tough job with the PT. TPM was...not what we expected, 20 years later. What did we expect? ANH all over again?

So first of all, he must live up to expectations, which are pretty much at the 2nd coming of Christ level.

Then, he HAS to explain certain events in a certain way. Thus, he kinda has to force things to fit. With the OT, he had a tabula rasa, a blank state with which to work.

I'm not saying he's doing a perfect job (and the stuff he gets right, I mean really YES! right, is that fluke or genius?), but it's still Star Wars.

It's when he starts talking about adding stuff to the OT that I get paranoid...

And I agree with your point about the spiritual importance of the Force...its combat effects are quite incidental. Thus, as I mentioned in an earlier post, the lightsaber, first and foremost, is a tool to help the young Padawan/Knight focus and control the Force.

Then again, I would tell Anakin to stop thinking with his lightsaber (groan).

 

The Jedi don't say: "don't love, don't get angry." They say: "don't be ruled by passion, whether it be love or hate."

This is an excellent point. It also creates sufficient motivation for the Jedi to construct a code forbidding personal attachment. It's the very thing that drove Luke to a murderous rage, nearly killing his father and sealing his own fate. We can see the dangers of attachment in Ben's warning to Luke: "Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit. But they could be made to serve the Emperor." It is personal attachment that drives Anakin to slaughter an entire Tusken village. By letting his anger control him, Anakin's feelings were used to serve the dark side. Had Anakin let go of his feelings for his mother, he could have mourned her death without going over the edge.

And Rebel Scumb, I respectfully ask that you not try and turn this thread into another tiresome debate about Lucas' skills as a film maker. This is a thread to celebrate Star Wars, not criticize it. There are already dozens of other threads designed for the latter.

 

I wasn't calling into question his filmmaking at all. And I thought this was a thread fro discussion, not celebration?

 

GL is doing as best he can to give light to a secondary background character... NO, not Bib Fortuna.. Boba Fett!

I wonder how Fett is to fit in this grey area?

First of all, since he is a clone, I guess GL is saying that without proper modifications.. a clone isn't much different than a droid, they can develop attachments and they are capable of their own thoughts & actions...

I don't have much sympathy for Boba Fett..
True, he was just a clone of his father and he lost his father, but look at what his father was... a bounty hunter!

He got paid to use his own gentic material to create a army of clones, what if he knew these clones were to be for the Separatists?
Jango is then a traitor to the Republic!

Even if Jango didn't, it seems funny to me that he could of created an army for someone that may have tried to kill his own son in the future for being a clone or a bounty hunter!

One could say Jango was defending himself against Obi-Wan, but since Jedi are the law-enforcers of the Republic, he was evading arrest and trying to kill him... obviously Jango doesn't have a problem with killing in front of his child, I doubt Jango admonished Boba for helping him.

Jango even playfully exchanges dialogue with his "son" and his son acts even more blood thirsty than the father as Obi-Wan is attacked in the asteroid field around Geonosis!

Jango is showing killing Jedi in front of his son, but yet people have expressed caring for Boba because Jango lost his head!

Jango's intent for having a son was to have a heir to his legacy, to continue his profession into the future.
Doesn't it seems selfish that Jango didn't use natural means to have a "son", does this mean that Jango felt that having a women take part in creating an heir would make him ineffective?
Perhaps more emotional and not able to do his job?
Since it seems that Jango didn't have a place to be cared for, I mean he didn't have to stay on Geonosis to watch the Jedi execution, it only points to the fact that Boba Fett was to become Jango Fett!

Since Mace Windu killed Jango and Boba saw it, this must mean that the Force "wanted" Boba to follow this destiny, since it is logical to believe that Boba would operate outside the confines of the "law" and aid those that came to power and eliminated the Jedi Knights.

I find it interesting that people admonish the Jedi for giving children lightsabers, while they are watching a man create a child to be a PAID murderer!

What we could see as a nice father/son relationship is anything but that! We are seeing a man sustain his legacy and watching "fate" guarantee that legacy would continue...

 

I would like to see the force brought back into focus, it seems like it has been delegated to a tool/weapon for the jedi, rather then a spiritual force to be discussed, and to decide the fates of many.

It remains to be seen if this is intentional, but I suspect that it is. Looking at the "seperation of church and state" argument for a moment, I think Lucas is showing us a religious order composed of rules but deprived of conviction. The Jedi follow a code that has been handed down for thousands of generations but have forgetten to exercise the conviction that goes along with it. They have turned their religion into a science, where one's "religious worth" as it were is quantified with a blood sample analysis. Their younglings are trained how to follow the rules but not why, and when faced with someone who demands to know why (Anakin), the system is unable to handle it.

No doubt through the course of Episode III, Obi-Wan and Yoda will recognize the failings of the Jedi order leading to their revised and more spiritual understanding of the force.

 

Well here's hoping. I'm just hoping there's more to get involved with.

As for Jango, I think it would have been interesting had Boba had been his natural child, this would give a whole new spin to things, since he is still essientially a stormtooper, but he would be natural while they are in amny terms artifical.

 

Good, Punisher - that's a perceptive look at the Fetts.

I think you go too far with your attack on Jango, but your insight serves you well.

Here's an interesting (Marvel Comics, I know..) What If?!? for you...

What if...Jango wanted Boba to witness his death by a Jedi? I mean, like so many people have mentioned, you'd have to be crazy or have a jetpack to jump into that cesspool of insanity and chaos known as the arena. And then attack Mace Windu. Yeah, good call. It's the only logical explanation (well, not really). Jango sacrifices himself for Boba to aspire to even greater heights of deadliness.

Crap - I'm too slow! Another great post, Durwood, especially since I completely agree with it.

-dust

 

Yeah I always wondered why he went into the deathpit, and to get Mace of all people. I figured he'd be after Obi-wan if anyone, but why not stay with Dooku? Does the novel explain this, or am I missing something?

 

These are all terrific posts. You would think critics on the internet who write reviews on films would be as sophisticated and literate as we are, but sadly that's just not the case.

 

Whatever point we were on, it's sure gone now.

I'm going to lose it if we can't see the full Jango-Mace battle on DVD.

Actually, Scumb, I thought, although fairly plodding, the novelization is worth reading, just for the extra insight you get in some scenes. The Dooku/Obi/Anakin/Yoda scene reads quite well, and you start to understand how badly Lucas butchered that scene (sorry, but it's one of my only beefs with AOTC. You're cutting THAT scene and we have to watch "Anakin" balance on some creampuff cow??).

Another scene is the Jango/Mace affair - I won't ruin it for you, but it's gonna kick butt on the DVD.

I think he saw that Mace lost his saber running away from the Reek, and thought he had his chance. I'm sure Mace is the first person in history to get that close to killing him (saber at his neck), and in front of his son, to boot!

Actually...I guess him jumping into the fray makes more sense, now that I think about it.


-dust

 

It's very simple, Mace Windu makes it known by his presence and comments to Dooku, that he was the highest ranking Jedi there...
if Jango was looking for a "bonus", then it would make sense for him to bring Dooku, Mace's head on a plate instead.
I think that if Mace went down, Jango would have been perceptive of Nute Gunray's statements and went after Padme next.