With AOTC/TPM Lucas pulls the rug out from under our expectations

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jabbadabbado, Sep 18, 2002.

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  1. yoda900 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 3
    reguarding obiwan or jengo not having any emotionalness, I would say there is something in the scene where they first meet.

    Very tense. And the way they show boba, it almost shows boba as having a hint of evil

    That is all.

    Just about all the good stuff has been taken ;)
  2. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Your point is well-taken, Ophelia. I just find that much of the criticism of the PT is comparison-based, with the OT always coming out on top. It is very difficult to view the PT on its own merits, but to call the OT the "Holy Trilogy" is one thing, and actually believe in its infallibility is another.


    Hmmm...this next point could go in the "Anakin...Noooo" topic, but I don't feel like reading it. And I guess it relates to Lucas pulling the rug out for underneath us...

    One of the major things Lucas has to clear up is the whole "Jedi disappearing, Jedi Ghosts, 'I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'" theme.

    After hearing Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC, what do you think?

    It certainly seems like Qui-Gon is going to play a major role in Episode III - he has a relationship with Yoda, Dooku, Obi-Wan, and Anakin.

    My brother had an interesting theory - and this partially based on the novelization, as a warning.

    According to the novel, Yoda hears Qui-Gon's disembodied voice after feeling a surge of despair and rage in the Force, coming from Anakin.

    I don't have the book in front of me, but it says something about how the surge of Anakin's agony in the Force created a disturbance, and Qui-Gon's voice was heard.

    Here's the thing: what if the whole Jedi Ghost deal is unnatural? Yoda is completely surprised; if the Jedi have been around for 1000s of years, how come no one has noticed this before.

    The reason is Anakin: whether he is simply the most powerful Force user ever, or his 'father' was indeed the Force, Anakin is unbelievably powerful.

    Right? Right.

    So his rage and sadness and hate and despair at his mother's death ripped a disturbance in the Force, or maybe like an underground explosion, things bubble up to the surface - and Qui-Gon's spirit.

    Yoda seems to be positive that when a Jedi dies, he becomes one with the Force - one becomes essentially more powerful (than you can possibly imagine) b/c there is no longer any separation between the individual Jedi and the Force.

    But in order for Qui-Gon's spirit to come back, there is a disturbance created by Anakin...this is not how things are supposed to be.

    I know it doesn't exactly explain everything, including why Obi-Wan and Yoda disappear and Qui-Gon doesn't, but what do you think?

    Mods can delete this if it's too off topic.:)

    -dust


  3. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Well yeah because in ROTJ Anakin, Yoda, and Ben are all ghosts.
  4. OnlyOneKenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2002
    star 3
    What if what Obi-wan and Yoda teach Luke has nothing to do with classic Jedi teachings and everything to do with what the last two Jedi learned about the Force while they were fugitives living in exile?

    I think you've got it spot on, Jabbadabbado... Obi Wan and Yoda seriously rethink their philosophies, the Force, etc. and they take a different approach in Luke's training. I think Yoda had a harder time letting go of the "old" method of training. When Obi-Wan sends Luke to him, he first refuses, because he's too impatient, too old, and too reckless, but Obi-Wan convinces him to train Luke in this "new" way.
  5. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    This could also lend insight into why Luke was able to breeze through his training and yet still becoming very powerful with the Force. Unlike the Jedi before him, Luke is letting the Force flow through him as Qui-Gon would have suggested. He is trusting his feelings and we all know that his Force potential is through the roof.
  6. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    I'd like to discuss Lucas' attachment (or should I say non-attachment) theory in greater detail, but I dunno if this is the place.

    This is as good a place as any.

    Are you of the mind that Lucas' supposed "no attachment" theory is somehow flawed? Here's a comment I posted in another thread that gives my take on the subject:

    There is no flaw in Lucas' theory of attachment simply because it is a theory that applies only to a fictional group of people and therefore has absolutely no bearing on the real world. If we possessed tremendous power that could be twisted and corrupted through manipulations of our attachments then I'd say a "no attachment" rule would not only be reasonable but necessary.

    I think if there is a real world lesson to be learned from the Jedi's "no attachment" code it's this: let go of those things you can't control. It's a basic but practical lesson.
    The Jedi are a special case. The code of no attachments makes sense for the Jedi and the Jedi only. Lucas is not expecting us to extrapolate this fictional code of conduct and try to apply it to the real world. That's silly.
  7. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Durwood,

    I believe that the disallowance of personal attachment creates an issue for the Jedi. It is from these personal attachments in life that we are able to draw strength and support. We attach value to these things and will protect them at all costs. Of course, on could argue that these attachments could be used to influence a Jedi into acting irrationally, but I think that the positives would greatly outweight the negatives. How much harder would you fight if you knew your family depended upon your success?
  8. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I'd love to discuss Lucas's "theory of attachment." I find it very disturbing. Morally questionable. He seems to be equating attachment to people with attachment to things, and that's just wrong. Yoda blasts little Ani for his attachment to his mother. Anakin tells Padme that the Jedi forbid attachment.

    If I were watching the movies without any reference to quotes from Lucas interviews, I would say that Lucas is criticizing the Jedi order for the way it forbids and disparages attachment (remember Rebel Scumb brought up this point earlier in the thread, saying either Lucas really does hate attachment, or he's being critical of the Jedi teachings concerning attachment. I said I thought it was the latter).

    But there's a Lucas interview in which he states his theory about the danger of attachment. So he seems to believe it. He seems to be praising the Jedi for this belief. I have a problem with that.
  9. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Well we all know Lucas is a big fan of Eastern philosophy. His view of the Jedi is that they should live an aesthetic lifestyle. I don't know if that prevents them from personal relationships, but if one were to take a radical perspective on aestheticism, I think this would be the case.

  10. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    We attach value to these things and will protect them at all costs. . . How much harder would you fight if you knew your family depended upon your success?

    But it was Luke's attachments that very nearly caused him to fail, or more accurately it was Vader's manipulations of those attachments that pushed Luke over the edge. And that's the thing, the Jedi don't need to fight harder nor do they need the motivation too. Trying to fight harder to save what you love only leads you closer to the dark side. Obi-Wan, angered by his master's death, fought extraordinarily hard against Darth Maul and flirted with the dark side nearly sealing his own fate. Luke, enraged at the thought of his sister serving the Emperor, fought harder than he had ever fought in his life and very nearly failed.

    This is why the "no attachments" code is critical. It prevents a Jedi from lashing out in anger or rage. Having close attachments only makes the Jedi more vulnerable to the influences of the dark side (control, power).
  11. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    At some level, I think we'll all enjoy really seeing Palpatine and Vader in action, although it doesn't seem clear that the Jedi purge happens in Episode 3.

    I do not think we will see the Jedi purge. Maybe the beginnning of it like we see the beginning of the Clone Wars in AOTC. And then we here what had happened through Obi-Wan in ANH. I just have a question on the twins.

    Leia said she remembers her mother being beautiful but sad. Now is she talking about her adpoted mother or Padme'? Because how will she even be able to remember Padme' if Padme is going to be killed in EPIII. Will the twins already be born when we start EPPIII, or is Padme' not going to be killed in EPIII and it is just assumed she has died sometime between EPIII and EPIV. Does leia remember pictures of Padme'?

    Then I have to ask, how come Anakin/Vader does not know about Leia? I am just confused on what is going to transpire with the twin situation.
  12. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    About attachment: but as many other people have pointed out, it's Luke's faith in his father, filial devotion, that helps Anakin find redemption. How does Lucas differentiate that kind of attachment from my attachment to my espresso machine? I don't think he does.
  13. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Yeah but Luke knew what he was fighting for and remember he came back form the edge very very fast. Knowing that you are remember teh moive with Bruecs Willes, The one with the big ass rock go right to earth. He what fi those guy sgo up there and forget what there fight for and it was not just earth. It was for the people they love. Luke went with his father but held on to the love for his sister and friends so he woudl remember what he was fighting for. there freedom.
  14. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    But as many other people have pointed out, it's Luke's faith in his father, filial devotion, that helps Anakin find redemption. How does Lucas differentiate that kind of attachment from my attachment to my espresso machine?

    I think there is a difference between attachment and faith. Luke's attachment to his father wasn't such that Luke was trying to control something that was out of his control. He simply had a passive faith that there was still good left in Anakin.

    And that's really the crux of the "no attachment" rule, to not seek control of circumstances that are out of your control. Luke wasn't trying to control Vader, but he was trying to control the fate of his sister. I believe it's a subtle but important difference.
  15. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Just from my understanding of the what's coming in Episode III and what it has to do with the OT.

    ~Vader does not know about the twins. He only knows about Luke in ESB, probably due to the fact that Luke blew up the Death Star and probably is pretty famous. So he would assume that Padme was pregnant and had a son. And he figured from evidence gathered in ANH that Luke had been staying with his step-brother Owen all those years.

    ~Vader does not know about Leia until the final moments in ROTJ. Even though it is obvious he knows her on a professional level due to her work in the Senate.

    ~No one knows what is going to happen to Padme, even though there is wild speculation. Given the fact that she is only hinted at in ROTJ, Lucas has carte blanche to decide the fate of her character. But we do know it will be tragic.


    EDIT: Durwood makes a very good point about faith v. attachment.
  16. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    psychology makes a distinction between insecure and secure attachments that children form with their mothers at an early age. Secure attachments are based in part on faith and trust so I don't know if it's as easy as you think to separate them out. That's why I think "attachment" is a problematic word; iit pulls in the positive and essential along with the negative.
  17. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Durwood,

    If Anakin were to have deny his love for Padme and therefore adhere to the Jedi Code forbidding attachments, the Luke Skywalker would have never existed. It is this "attachment" that drives Luke to save his Father and that drives Anakin to "save" his son. Pretty beautiful if you really think about it. It is the family attachment that the Order forbids that actually saves the galaxy from the clutches of evil.

    Luke, help me take this mask off.

    But you'll die.

    Nothing can stop that now. Just for once... let me look on you with my own eyes.

    Slowly, hesitantly, Luke removes the mask from his father's face. There beneath the scars is an elderly man. His eyes do not focus. But the dying man smiles at the sight before him.

    (very weak) Now...go, my son. Leave me.

    No. You're coming with me. I can't leave you here. I've got to save you.

    You already have, Luke. You were right about me. Tell your sister...you were right.

    Father... I won't leave you!

  18. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    But having faith also means being able to let go of certain things. It's supposed to be the soothing balm to despair and fear.

  19. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    Perhaps the term "attachment" too broad for what Lucas is trying to convey, or perhaps the concept will have larger ramifications in Episode III.

    At any rate, I think it's mostly about accepting things that are out of your control.
  20. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    There's a strong argument though that the PT is telling the story of how Luke's attachment to his mother and to Padme pave the way for his fall to the dark side. It's a thematic choice I don't really like but it's as valid as any I guess. Maybe it relates back to Lucas's own relationships with women.
  21. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Luke refused to accept that things were out of his control. He allowed the Force to guide him. He clearly goes against the Jedi code and puts himself, the last hope in dire peril to save his Father.
  22. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I look at it this why at of all the people to save Anakin it is Luke but how. Well he must see Padme in Luke. They are both very much a like so in many ways and this is coming form a different therad I don't remeber where. Padme is living through Luke to save Anakin. After all if he did not see some of Padme in Luke he may have just let him die. Then again who knows.
  23. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    While, as I said, PT seems to be telling the story of how Luke's attachment to his mother and to Padme pave the way for his fall to the dark side, the OT, on the other hand seems to tell the story of how Luke's attachment to his father helps save the galaxy from emperor Palpatine. How do we reconcile those two stories?
  24. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Example of Luke's attachment driving him to his destiny. Note that not only does Luke share a bond with Darth Vader, but also he develops a strong bond with Leia without knowing that she is his sister. The Force is guiding Luke to his attachments. Strange.


    Leia: No! Luke, run away. Far away. If he can feel your presence, then leave this place. I wish that I could go with you.

    Luke: No you don't.

    Leia: But why must you confront him?

    Luke: Because there is good in him. I've felt it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I can save him. I can turn him back. I have to try.
  25. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Jabba,

    It is the denial of Anakin's attachments that pave the way for his fall to the darkside. Take a really good look at it.

    Anakin feels that if he was allowed to keep his attachment to his Mother, he would have arrived when he first informed Kenobi of the dreams he was having and could have saved his Mother.

    We don't know how Padme is going to meet her end just yet, but you can bet that Anakin will feel that the Jedi are responsible due to the code.

    Edit: Anakin wishes to save Padme when she falls from the ship in Aotc. Kenobi clearly indicates that the attachment must be pushed aside in order to confront Dooku. We all know how this decision turns out. If Dooku was left to Yoda, who knows what the outcome would have been. With no Jedi to use as a distraction, Dooku would have been forced to square off against Yoda and as far as I could tell from the way things were going, Yoda would have dispatched him.
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