With AOTC/TPM Lucas pulls the rug out from under our expectations

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Jabbadabbado, Sep 18, 2002.

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  1. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
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    But then you have to see that Luke's attachments to his friends caused him to rush off to face Vader, and ended costing him his hand.

    But then on the other hand, had he not faced Vader, I don't think Vader would have been redeemed in the end of ROTJ. Luke confronting him had a huge impact on Vader's psyche and reminded him of the things he gave up.


    Heroes often walk a path as narrow as a razor's edge.

    But I think faith and love are the things that allows Vader to come back.




    My head is starthing to hurt now.
  2. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
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    "It is the denial of Anakin's attachments that pave the way for his fall to the darkside."

    This was my original argument, and I think it also fits the story, however Lucas seems to have said that his intent was to convey the opposite.

    from the david brin thread: George Lucas - "He turns into Vader because he gets attached to things. He can't let go of his mother; he can't let go of his girlfriend. He can't let go of things. It makes you greedy. And when you're greedy, you are on the path to the dark side, because you fear you're going to lose things, that you're not going to have the power you need."

    Maybe, this suggests that Lucas is differentiating between secure and insecure attachments and also implies that in Episode 3 Padme will try to leave Anakin and that sends him over the edge.
  3. Mapper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 1
    The way the prequels are now may not have been how Lucas would have done them twenty years ago. His views of the world around him have probably changed, and so that is coloring the prequels in a different light from the OT. Take your discussion on attachments, Luke's attachment to his father help bring Anakin back. Now, attachments are bad. I think this maybe from the fact that Lucas now realizes that while attachments can bring about good, they also can bring about bad things.

    I know this probably does not bring much to your discussion, I am just trying to work through a few ideas and need to express them somehow.
  4. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    "But then you have to see that Luke's attachments to his friends caused him to rush off to face Vader, and ended costing him his hand.

    But then on the other hand, had he not faced Vader, I don't think Vader would have been redeemed in the end of ROTJ. Luke confronting him had a huge impact on Vader's psyche and reminded him of the things he gave up.


    Heroes often walk a path as narrow as a razor's edge."

    Your last statement is the jewel. Luke loses his hand. He realizes how alike he and his Father truly are. They walk the same paths. It is this realization that makes him believe that Vader can be saved. It is this revelation that makes Luke refrain from continuing down the Dark path as his Father did.
  5. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    It is Love that brings Anakin back form the Dark Side. Palpatine can not Love. example Freeza is some one who can not Love. Goku can Love in fact it is his Love that helps him to kick Freezas ass. So I say Love is what real keeps people form the Dark Side.

    If you want to real think abot it. Were it not for Luke's love for his Father. Anakin would never have been able to fight against his Vader side. in away it is not only Luke vs. Vaderin ROTJ. But Padme vs. Vader, and Anakin vs. Vader and the Skywalkers won that fight. If it was not for Padme's love there would have been no Luke and Anakin would never turn from the Dark Side. But you do have Luke and his Love is what keeps him form the Dark Side and saves his father along with his mother's Love. Padme not Shmi.
  6. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    They walk the same paths. It is this realization that makes him believe that Vader can be saved. It is this revelation that makes Luke refrain from continuing down the Dark path as his Father did.

    So in the end it is Luke's faith in himself that ultimately serves as the catalyst for Vader's redemption.
  7. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    The_Abstract

    Thanks. Feel less confused now. He did say that at the end of ROTJ but did not say her name or who his twin sister was. Just that he would try to suduce(sp?) his twin sister.

    I guess I will just have to wait and see what he does. because if Leia remembers her mother then she has to be old enough in EPIII. But that not really mean it will. Alot could happen in EPIII and then just assumed after Iguess. I wonder if Anakin will enven know if she becomes pregnant
  8. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    If Lucas chooses to have Padme die shortly after the twins' birth, he can explain away Leia's memories in a number of ways, including that her Force sensitivity gave her visions of her mother that (being ignorant of her own powers) she interpreted as memories.
  9. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Jabba

    Good point. I always forget she is suppose to be Force sensitive.
  10. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Ekenobi,

    I don't think Vader needed to say her name. I think the Force works with images too.

    :D


    Jabbadabbado

    You make a great point too. It also may be similar to the way Luke feels familiar about Dagobah.



  11. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    The_Abstract

    Thats true. Luke could have flashed an image in his mind and said to himself twin sister and Vader picked that up.
  12. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    There's a problem with Leia having force sensitivity to remember her mother........

    Luke has force sensitivity as well but yet he doesn't have any visions of his mother so how is Leia able to have any memories of Padme despite that she died after giving birth to the twins while Luke doesn't?

    Leia would have to be a few years older to have "images and feelings" about her mother.
  13. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    hmm...I go away for a while and everybody gets delusions of grandeur!

    Glad to see this topic took off, and I'm finding people's responses VERY interesting.

    I am in complete agreement with Durwood; we have at several points in this thread mentioned similar themes and arguments.

    I find it interesting that those who argue (a few pages back) that giving lightsabers to children is bad also argue that the Jedi Code is bad (and the opposite is true as well).

    I really can't see how you can deny that Anakin gave more importance to his mother and Padme than to the Jedi Order. I can see why he did, but too bad.

    Anakin has made a commitment of the highest order, and has devoted his life to using and serving the Force.

    But wait - he wants to have his cake and eat it too.

    He wants to "be the first person to visit every planet" or whatever; he wants to be trained as a Jedi, he wants to be the most powerful Jedi ever (although he doesn't want to stick to the discipline).

    He wants his mother. He wants Padme. He wants to be able to ignore the Jedi Code whenever it inconveniences him.

    Actually, I really don't have much sympathy for Anakin whatsoever. He's a really good person, but he's kind of a spoiled brat.

    Perhaps attachment isn't the right term to use...

    but if Anakin forgot about his mother (or stopped letting it dominate his mind), and decided just to "be friends" with Padme, would he have gone to the dark side so easily?

    You know Obi-Wan would NEVER, EVER, turn to the DS. Why? He's not vulnerable.

    The Code is there to protect society from the Jedi, but also to protect the Jedi from society.

    Please don't tell me you think anyone on this board has the self-discipline to be a Jedi. We'd all slide over to the DS w/in the blink of an eye. "Stupid driver, cutting me off! See how he likes it when I cut off his oxygen!"

    And, as far as Padme falling, Obi-Wan had it completely right. Anakin was there as a Padawan learner. He is a soldier. Obi-Wan did not know Yoda was coming, and you can't tell me that you know for certain Yoda would have got there in time to prevent Dooku from leaving. In fact, I think Yoda senses the raging emotions from the Dooku/Ben/Ani fight, and that's when he asks for a ship.

    Luke is a problem...Yoda and Ben are right, in one sense - it made sense to sacrifice his friends, b/c it was a trap specifically for Luke. Luke was vulnerable, just like Anakin. He thinks with his heart, not his head. The galaxy is just lucky that Luke had far more strength of character and conviction than Anakin.

    Don't forget it is Luke's attachment to Leia that brings him one millimeter from the DS: Vader says he will turn her. Luke furiously attacks.

    Now, he is acting for the right reasons, b/c he loves his sister and wants to protect her, but he loses it and would have killed his father, and arguably turned to the DS.

    Just like Anakin is acting for the right reasons when he says "you'll pay for all the Jedi you killed today, Dooku." He is (understandably) upset, but, ONCE AGAIN, thinking with his heart gets himself zapped and thrown against a wall. Ouch.

    Obi-Wan on the other hand actually blocks the lightning with his lightsaber.

    Consider this little tidbit - when Obi-Wan and Ani enter Dooku's hangar, Anakin runs in with his saber waving all over the place. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, has both hands on his saber and has it in a guard position.

    It's the little things.

    Now, I'm not denying Luke's love for his father and vice-versa saved the day. But it was when Luke shut down his saber and said "no, you've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

    That is the penultimate moment of the saga, and it redeems Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Luke. His love for his father has not diminished, but he acts in a calm, reasonable manner. He accepts that, if he has to die, so be it. He will not be turned to the Dark Side.

    That is exactly how a true Jedi would have acted.

    If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you c
  14. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    "That is the penultimate moment of the saga, and it redeems Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Luke. His love for his father has not diminished, but he acts in a calm, reasonable manner. He accepts that, if he has to die, so be it. He will not be turned to the Dark Side.

    That is exactly how a true Jedi would have acted.

    If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

    Awesome! Not only does Luke do what they could not, but he also forces his Father to make a decision. In doing so, he places faith in Anakin knowing that he has given him the way out, allowing himself to be sacrificed so that his Father may choose redemption or remain powerless.
  15. JediHPDrummer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2002
    star 3
  16. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Does anyone now question what the prophecy means by "Bringing balance to the Force"?
  17. Jedi_Leia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 1
    "It is the denial of Anakin's attachments that pave the way for his fall to the darkside."

    This was my original argument, and I think it also fits the story, however Lucas seems to have said that his intent was to convey the opposite.

    I think this is the burning question when viewing the PT- whether or not Lucas is intending on conveying the opposite. Given Lucas' quote on "attachment" and how Anakin turns because he "can't let go of things", we're all thinking "wait a minute, wasn't it Luke's attachment that redeemed Anakin?..."

    Perhaps the term "attachment" too broad for what Lucas is trying to convey, or perhaps the concept will have larger ramifications in Episode III.

    This is a good possiblity which is why I think everyone's having difficulties interpreting this whole "attachment" issue as it has so far been presented to us. We won't know where Lucas is going with this until Episode 3.

    And here's something else I find interesting so I'll just throw it out there. I'm not so sure I agree with those saying that in the OT Yoda and Obi-Wan have acquired a "new" philosphy for training Luke. Here's why: In ESB, when Luke is abandoning his training to help Leia and Han, Yoda tells him not to go. When Luke asks at one point "And sacrifice Han and Leia?", Yoda responds "If you honor what they fight for, yes." To me, this is quite similar to Obi-Wan and Anakin's argument about Padme when she falls from the ship. Interesting difference however, is that Luke disobeys his master, whereas Anakin does not. Now I realize Anakin is accompanied by Obi-Wan as opposed to Luke who was alone, but my point is that both Anakin and Luke's instincts are to help those they care about, regardless of whether or not they should.

    Also of interest, is what Obi-Wan tells Luke in ESB in this same scene.

    Obi-Wan: "It is you and your abilities the emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer."
    Luke: "That's why I have to go."
    Obi-Wan: "Luke, I don't want to lose you the way I lost Vader."
    Luke: "You won't."

    I think this directly relates to this whole "attachment" issue. Vader is using Han & Leia to lure Luke. And Obi-Wan's statement makes me wonder if the emperor will do the same..

    Hope all this makes sense somehow.. [face_mischief]
  18. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    So maybe Yoda and Obi-wan have learned nothing. Maybe Yoda and Obi-wan believe they are training Luke to fight Vader and Luke is the only one who understands the value of "attachment." Maybe Luke is the only one who knows that saving his friends is more important than completing his training, and that trying to redeem Anakin is more important than defeating him in a duel.
  19. Ekenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2002
    star 4
    Leia would have to be a few years older to have "images and feelings" about her mother.

    this is what I was trying to get across. She would have to be older to have images and feels of her mother. IF so Luke should have them too. That is why I do not think Padme' will die in EPIII.
  20. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, Jedi Leia - I agree with your assessment of the "trap" in ESB. I think Luke knows it, too. As in, theoretically, he can see how it's a trap by Vader, but he doesn't think of the consequences.

    And this is where destiny or the Cosmic Force or whatever you want to call it comes into play.

    Yoda and Ben had perfectly legitimate fears - look what happened with Anakin! Now his punk son is just as reckless, but he has even less training! My GOD, who wouldn't fight to keep Luke from going?

    And yes, Yoda and Ben were wrong about Vader being able to be redeemed, but I would probably think the same thing. Look at their experience: Dooku, one of the greatest Jedi ever, sells out and joins the DS! Anakin, the Chosen One, joins the DS!

    I'm sorry, but if leaving Padme (possibly) to her death gave them a chance to stop Dooku and "end this war right now," I think they should have left her. Obi-Wan was right.

    And I agree with Yoda and Ben - it did seem better for Luke to let Leia and Han die, than to run to Bespin to save them, and be turned by Vader. That would be the ultimate triumph of Vader/Palpatine and the extinguishment of the Rebellion's last hope.

    Like I said, Luke had many of the same traits as his father; fortunately for the galaxy, he had better character.

    -dust
  21. Jedi_Leia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 1
    Don't forget it is Luke's attachment to Leia that brings him one millimeter from the DS: Vader says he will turn her. Luke furiously attacks.

    Now, he is acting for the right reasons, b/c he loves his sister and wants to protect her, but he loses it and would have killed his father, and arguably turned to the
    DS.


    This is true. If Luke would have killed Vader he would have lowered himself to Vader's level of evil. Even if it was to protect his sister, Luke would have become no better than Vader, they would have become one of the same, thus, Luke would have probably turned to the Dark Side. But wait a minute, didn't Yoda and Ben want Luke to conquer and destroy Vader?

    I think you're right Jabbadabbado when you said that Luke is the only who knows that redeeming Anakin is better than fighting him in a duel. Luke doesn't see things as black and white. Yoda and Ben say either you kill Vader or you don't. Either we win or we lose. There is no inbetween. They lack the connection to others that Anakin and Luke so strongly feel. And it is this connection that redeems Anakin and finally destroys the Emperor. What does this say about the Jedi Order's ways? About their view of all or nothing?

    The Jedi Order says attachment is bad. This law is necessary (in the JC's view) and it is the sacrifice that a jedi must make to have complete clarity, composure, and dedication to the Jedi Order. The question is, is the JC right in creating this law? Should it be that black and white? Yoda and Ben never considered redeeming Anakin, only Luke does b/c of his attachment to him.

    And yes, Yoda and Ben were wrong about Vader being able to be redeemed, but I would probably think the same thing. Look at their experience: Dooku, one of the greatest Jedi ever, sells out and joins the DS! Anakin, the Chosen One, joins the DS!

    I see your point here. But they've never tried to redeem anyone. Once they've turned, they've turned. The council never questions why, which takes me back to the Jedi's view as being plain black or white. They don't care.

    Anakin made a choice in Episode 1. He chose the Jedi Order. He just didn't expect to see Padme again. That presented him with another decision. He broke one vow and committed to another. The problem is he wants both, while he knows he can only have one. If the council tells him he has to choose, I can see how the whole greed thing pans out, but I don't see it being as attachment in general being a bad thing.


    I'm sorry, but if leaving Padme (possibly) to her death gave them a chance to stop Dooku and "end this war right now," I think they should have left her. Obi-Wan was right.

    This is a difficult assessment. Put yourself in Anakin's place. If you loved someone that much could you just turn your back on them? This brings up another issue. For the Jedi Order the ends justify the means. And I think this is the second most debatable issue of the PT. The Jedi Order can easily sacrifice something or someone to achieve a "greater good". But is this sacrifice right? Do the ends justify the means? It's easy to make this decision if your Obi-Wan but not if you're Anakin. Anakin loves, Obi-Wan does not.

    And I guess this takes us back to attachment.. I think I've lost myself...Someone help..
    :confused:



    EDIT:
    Just one more thing..
    And I agree with Yoda and Ben - it did seem better for Luke to let Leia and Han die, than to run to Bespin to save them, and be turned by Vader. That would be the ultimate triumph of Vader/Palpatine and the extinguishment of the Rebellion's last
    hope.


    But Yoda and Ben were wrong about Luke not going to Bespin. Had Luke not gone, he wouldn't have encountered Vader and he wouldn't have learned that he was his father. This is the crucial point of the saga. For it is here that Luke learns the truth, a truth that connects him to Vader because of his love for his father. And it this realization that drives him to redeem Vader instead of killing him.

    Ok, that's
  22. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Nicely argued, Jedi_Leia. But the implication is we have to throw out the idea that Yoda and Obi-wan learn something valuable while they're in hiding. Luke invents something new, something that is not really Jedi in the sense of the Jedi order that Yoda presided over. Luke redeems Vader by rejecting the philosophical underpinnings of the Jedi order and committing himself to his father.

    A classic PT Jedi, after all, would have no trouble slicing the head off his own father, because to fail to do so would signify attachment, so to speak. :)

    And that also implies that the Jedi were wrong to place such emphasis on the danger of attachment. Their mistaken directives help lead to Anakin's downfall. Is that the story Lucas is trying to tell with the PT?
  23. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

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    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    I posted this to another thread a couple of months ago:

      When Anakin said that "attachment is forbidden" I assumed he was talking about "Attachment" in the Buddhist sense, not emotional attachments. I pulled this definition of Attachment-sometimes-spelled-with-a-captial-A from here:

      Four Noble Truths

      The origin of suffering is attachment to transient things . . . Transient things do not only include the physical objects that surround us, but also ideas . . . The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardor, pursue of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow.

      This quote is part of an explanation of the Buddhist "Four Noble Truths," paraphrased from the same website:


      1. Life is suffering.

      2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

      3. Because suffering has a beginning, it must also have an ending.

      4. There is a path to the ending of suffering. (i.e., embrace non-attachment)



      I put "craving and clinging" in bold because this is Anakin's major problem. I can't spout the quote off the top of my head, but in an interview GL said that Anakin is basically a good guy who "can't let go."

      It's not just that he loves Shmi and Padmé, it's that he loves them hungrily, needily, possessively. He's so scared of losing Padmé that he's actually willing risk her safety in order to "save" her. ("You're using her as bait.")

      Shmi's death just blows the center right out of him--he goes completely berserk.
      By contrast, Obi-Wan cries as if his heart has broken after Qui-Gon dies, but he's able to maintain his centeredness and integrity. He gets up and goes on with his life even though he doesn't feel like it. That's emotional attachment without Attachment.

      This is probably the key to why Anakin goes over to the Dark Side:
      Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable

      All that's holding that boy together are Attachments, in this case the lives of people he loves and feels he can't afford to lose. He wants to be the "most powerful Jedi ever" so he can "stop people from dying." That's his idea of serving the powers of good--to stop people from ever having to suffer. The trouble is, suffering is inevitable, no matter how powerful you are. People change, people die, people go away, and no one can stop that.

      Eventually Anakin is going to figure out that the Light Side doesn't offer protection from pain and loss. To the contrary--it requires pain and loss, in that a Jedi must be willing to place duty (or faith, or the Force, YMMV) before all the transient things that he or she wants. From the vantagepoint of someone mired in Attachments, the Jedi lifestyle looks like one big losing streak.

      The Dark Side, on the other hand, claims to offer its adherants unlimited power, and more to the point, control. Being a Sith means never having to piddle around with acceptance, or surrender, or the admission that anything anywhere might be more important than the thing you want right now. You never have to worry about feeling powerless or abandoned ever again.

      Of course, since we all know that loss and death are "the way of things . . . the way of the Force," we know that to deny death and grief is to deny life and love. Obi-Wan was right according to "a certain point of view" when he claimed in ANH and ROTJ that Anakin Skywalker had been dead for years.
  24. SWfan2002 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2002
    star 4
    And that also implies that the Jedi were wrong to place such emphasis on the danger of attachment. Their mistaken directives help lead to Anakin's downfall. Is that the story Lucas is trying to tell with the PT?

    I think this may be the case. It was, as pointed out earlier, Luke's attachment to his father that ended up saving the galaxy from the Emperor's rule.
  25. Boba_Phat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2000
    star 4
    "Yoda and Ben never considered redeeming Anakin, only Luke does b/c of his attachment to him."

    You forgot about Vader telling Luke "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." Obi-Wan once did believe that there was still good in him. Something has to happen to make him change his mind.
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